N&PD Moderators: Skorpio
What level of Academic degree is required (if any) to do resrch on psychoactive drugs
interesting rant however you should look up the difference between sympatholytics vs sympathomimetics
![:\](https://bluelight.org/xf/BL_Images/Orig_Emoji/wrygrin.gif "wry grin :\")
it is better to learn pharmacology and chemisty first then decide to investigate kratom alkaloids as once you have learnt the skills you will see them from a different angle.
sadly there is no way in hell a tot syn of mitragynine is going to be economically competitive with extraction even at todays prices, (an indonesian cartel control the Kratom market) but if someone was determined enough and had the patience to wait 10 years for a new plantation to mature then the price could easily be driven down to 5-10 USD per kilo or even lower.
interesting rant however you should look up the difference between sympatholytics vs sympathomimetics
You should consider multiple possible interpretations before you jump on the one that gratifies your ego or permits you to make some satisfying riposte.
When I said:
What I meant was that if you dislike the noradrenaline-releasing component of a particular stimulant so much, preferring one more serotonergic and dopaminergic, you can use a sympatholytic, like carvedilol, and complement your dextroamphetamine, or whatever it is you're taking, with something like fenfluramine. (Thus making it more neurotoxic of course. Vastly more.)
Okay, it appears that I must eat my words because, after cursory investigation, I have found a few stimulants that appear to produce serotonin and dopamine efflux much more strongly than norepinephrine/epinephrine efflux. ...Okay, now do we have enough stimulants?
In what way do you mean though. Not a single phenyltropane cocaine analog has ever been tried on a human being except the for trans analogs produced by neurosearch. Surely it must still be early to act like the stimulant business has run out of steam? It's not just about pumping out a library of several hundred new analogs anymore. More needs to be done to try and clarify the analogs that are worth something and which can be discarded.
daddysgone
Bluelighter
Hi all,
I had not checked this thread in a few days- and imagine my delight when I checked up on it today and found such elegant responses from Shibiru-full of sound and fury, signifying nothing. Honestly, the last thing I want is to be drawn into some lame internet argument, but your post was pointless at best; and when you consider the numerous inaccuracies, it was just plain dumb.
Do you also shit all over things you actually have an understanding of, or only in cases like this, in which you simply feign an understanding?
I want to study kratom's alkaloids because I am interested in it (I was unaware I needed any other reason). You would instead have me spend my time studying, what?-Another codeine derivative? Or how bout a new fent analogue thats 3.7 trillion times more potent then morphine?
So if your point is that the world doesn't need any more narcotic analgesics....yea I think we can all agree on that. But that hardly means that my wish to study the analgesic potential of mitragynine analogs (shockingly little research has been done on this subject btw), should be considered, "boring".
Also, when you suggest that 7-OHM is a partial agonist, that is incorrect. 7-OHM is a selective and potent full agonist at mu. Perhaps you meant to say that kratom, as a whole, is a partial agonist. This would be much closer to the truth, but this is due to the action of other alkaloids in the leaf, not 7-OHM.
Lastly, lets assume for a second that you (or anyone else) is correct, and that the alkaloids of kratom are "boring". I think these people would also agree that codeine is "boring"- and consider what amazing compounds have arisen as a result of the study and research of that "boring" compound.
^ Yes, I don't know a whole lot about Kratom, because it doesn't interest me at all. I know some of the principle psychoactive constituents and their metabolites and have a vague understanding of how they act in the brain. I admit shortcomings, but I don't care to correct them, because, as I said, Kratom is entirely uninteresting to me. What would be the point?
So you want to create derivatives of Kratom alkaloids on the off chance that you could find something novel, something applicable in the treatment of psychiatric or physiologic disease, or are you just trying to find yet more opioid analgesics? If the latter is the case, then you most certainly are wasting your time (at least from the perspective of the scientific imperative to learn new things and thereby gain new tools by which to further improve the human condition.) Your derivatives probably wouldn't do anything that existing opioids don't, so of what great value would they be? If you just find fun for whatever stupid reason in investigating kratom and synthesizing a bunch of junk from it that will probably not ever be used in a clinical setting, then I guess you're not wasting your time as far as you and your need to be entertained are concerned. But why not put your knowledge and skills to good use doing things not only beneficial to you but others, as well?
I never meant to say that what you'd be undertaking would be completely useless; only that you're aiming very low. That was meant to be constructive criticism. It was meant to help you. You're getting awfully defensive and angry here (apparently, anways; without intonation and body language I can only guess). BTW, you were wrong to say that my post was full of fury. More accurately, it was a post whose tone could be characterized well by "consternation," "sympathy," "concern," and possibly "frustration".
Edit: I don't really understand why you called my post 'pointless'. The patent point was to discourage you from doing what you were planning to do. If by "pointless" you really mean "having no conspicuously valuable effect" or "inefficacious", then that is quite amusing because that it precisely what I believe your kratom research would be.
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daddysgone
Bluelighter
Can you provide any reasons why you are so certain that mitragynine derivatives or analogs would not offer some advantages over existing analgesics?
Im not saying that they certainly will, but the point here is that almost no research has been done on this subject, hence the rationale for investigation.
There is already much anecdotal evidence (and some clinical evidence) that tolerance to mitraynine and 7-OHM, develops much slower then with traditional opioids. The therapeutic range is also much, much greater. I do not believe there has been one documented case of a kratom, or kratom alkaloid, fatal overdose.
Why is it so absurd to think that by researching these alkaloids, it might be possible to create an analog or derivative which maintains or even amplifies these inherent advantages, and also acts as an effective analgesic.
Are you really trying to argue that the world would not benefit from an analgesic with a much broader therapeutic range, and a lower index of tolerance and addiction?
I honestly dont understand the basis of your objections to this line of study.
Hey DG,
I don't want to discourage you, quite the opposite actually. You must understand though that if you are about to enter academia at a high level, every defficiency of your research will be scrutinized and attacked relentlessly and you MUST be able to defend it convincingly or else you're done. You do get a high amount of freedom which is great but it is not utopian. Aim high, you have the ability and passion.
Also you must be realistic, the synthesis alone of ONE relatively complex alkaloid is a PhD project. Cheers!
PM if you want, I'm happy to help in any way I can.
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Because I suspect that those substances already exist. Check out mixed delta-mu opioid receptor agonists; they have the very same properties that you describe: high therapeutic index, little respiratory depression, probably less dependence liability. There's a great deal of research being done on that front already.
Again, my objection is not that it's totally useless, but only that you could aim just a little higher perhaps? It really was just a friendly suggestion, though it had the panoply of an unfriendly one.
I see that I've managed to make myself out to be the petty, nay-saying curmudgeon. Quanta had originally seemed to espouse an opinion like mine, but then, having read my apparently bitter posts, back-tracked a few hundred yards in order to distance himself from me lest he should look to be just as much a petty naysayer.
I think, though, that everyone had the same idea as I had, but didn't want to say it for fear of hurting your feelings or looking like a jerk.
This just isn't very cutting-edge stuff here, I'm afraid. I thought most aspired to be on the forefront of their field? I said what I said because I assumed that you had such aspirations yourself... Whatever... I'm done trying to convince you. If you think thar' be gold where you be diggin', keep diggin'... I'm not holding my breath, though.
Not trying to distance myself from you or anybody else. These message boards can sometimes go off the rails so quickly. DG asked an honest question at the start and I think people are all trying to help in their own way including yourself. This type of communication is so impersonal that the meaning is often lost especially when everyone has different backgrounds and experience levels. I think this will be my last post in this thread. Cheers!
Isnt that what most of the researchers do anyway? Not with regard to kratom and opioids, but isnt most of what they cook destined for the trash, so-long as they get paid their grant money then they arent to disatisfied with the outcome.
daddysgone
Bluelighter
Yes, as I understand it, this is the result of most things created/studies by researchers.
However, the point here is that it is rarely known whether or not research will be of no real use, or ground-breaking, until after it is completed (often times not even until years or decades later).
I am by no means advocating research for research's sake, but am suggesting that its ridiculous for anyone (especially someone with so little experience and knowledge in the subject...no offense Shibireru), to essentially "write off" the potential value of this research, or any research, when there is no way of knowing what might result.
I think the example I gave regarding codeine, is a good example. I could easily see that someone might have viewed codeine as a seemingly "boring" analgesic, whose study would likely not result in the discovery and production of more valuable compounds-and we all know what the study of codeine ended up providing to the world.
I really don't see how this subject is different. I fully agree that mitragynine especially, and even 7-OHM, are not particularly useful compounds. I DO think they are very interesting however. More importantly though, I think it's far from ridiculous, to speculate that these somewhat "boring" compounds, might lead to incredibly useful, and even novel drugs, if they are thoroughly studied.
I geniunely do not understand the position that some are taking, which essentially draws the conclusion that research into these particular alkaloids, will not result in anything useful. That's the point of research-to find answers to these questions. How anyone can reach such a conclusion BEFORE the research is done, confuses me.
If I'm missing something here, I honestly would like to have this explained to me. Cheers-DG
I fully can see the potential interest in making some totally synthetic mitragynine analogs in the laboratory. However before I would see fit to commit to this stage of development I would want to have personally tried kratom and possibly also ibogaine. I think people are deterred by the price.
daddysgone
Bluelighter
Perfectly reasonable stance.
I think the reason so many people discount kratom, is that depending on the material, your experience can vary so much.
And for people with an opioid tolerance, they simply would have to consume far too much raw leaf in order to get an effect.
But this is where isolated alkaloids come into play....
Eating anything much over, lets say 15 grams of raw leaf, will very likely lead to some bad nausea and other unpleasant effects. What causes this nausea is tannins and other non alkaloidal substances. And for those with opioid tolerance, they would need more then 15 grams in order to ingest enough mitragynine and 7-OHM, to feel any sort of opioid effect.
But when dealing with very concentrated extracts, or isolated alkaloids, even the opioid tolerant individual can come to fully appreciate the potential value of this plant.
daddysgone
Bluelighter
Follow-up Quick Question From OP
HI all
I just had a quick question that I was hoping to get answered ASAP, since I am scheduled to speak to a couple department heads tomorrow regarding the possibility of permitting me to conduct some research into this kratom matter, with the help of some PhD candidates and perhaps even professor.
Essentially my question is:
What department or departments would most likely be interested in contributing and/or collaborating with me regarding the area of study which I've discussed in this thread. I am basically looking for the department or departments whose academic focus is most "in line" with the area of research Im hoping to pursue (studies into the varied potential uses the kratom and its alkaloids might offer). Though Im sure I would not be able to study all the aspects Im interested in, and would likely have to choose one specific aspect of study, I would like to look at things like:
1-the potential for kratom and its alkaloids to emerge as a viable, alternative approach for the treatment of pain.
2-the potential for kratom and its alkaloids to be used as a tool by those wishing to ween themselves off of any variety of opioid addictions (there are several forums brimming with success stories of those who effectively used kratom to almost painlessly taper off of their opioid of choice and transition to the far less addictive, kratom. They then were able to relatively easily, taper down off of kratom (which proves far easier compared to tapering off of traditional opioids). I personally know of at least 5 such people who transitioned to kratom and then tapered off of kratom, and they literally gush over how easy a method this proved to be.
3.Id also like to conduct a study which compared kratom and its alkaloids to various traditional opioids, in terms of things like efficacy as an analgesic, incidence of dependence and tolerance (this would probably be the hardest approach to convince the school to approve, since it would deal with the use of controlled narcotics.
4. Lastly, I would like to (with the help of a skilled chemist) examine the possible kratom derived analogs, which would ideally retain the benefits inherent to kratom (large therapeutic range, low incidence of dependence etc), but hopefully succeed in producing something that addressed some of the limits of the kratom alkaloids (its short duration especially). This course of study might also prove unlikely since it deals with the complex synth of a new alkaloid.
Anyhow, that should give you an idea of the types of things Im hoping to study, and hoping my university will be interested in supporting on some level.
So, given my goals, what departments or departments do you think I should approach to present my case? BioChem department? Chemistry department?
Any advice regarding which department would be most likely to be interested in being a part of this area research would be of great help. Thanks so much-DG
