What is wrong with the MDMA available today?

[user666]

Earlier in the thread, someone suggested testing oxytocin levels. They said that would be a clear indicator of what was going on. MDMA should raise oxytocin levels.

It is hard to test for oxytocin because a large sample of fresh blood is required. This blood should not be stored so it complicates sample collection and delivery unless I throw the party in the lab
Anything else?

Do you mind me asking where you are located roughly?

Slovenia

I agree with your observations of differences in the compounds as well, except for the sexual observations. For me, the magic sex was where it was at. The meh sex is okay, but nothing like it was. But, I'm female, so my experience may be different there. I do think that the meh product can bring up more aggressive thoughts overall.

Don't get me wrong. I still have amorous feelings on the magic stuff, I just cannot express them sexually because I can't get it up.

 

[draculic acid69]

LAB PARTY

 

[G_Chem]

Unfortunately oxytocin is probably the best one of the bunch as that is the “love” aspect that everyone seems to be missing the most.

Dopamine would be my next guess but you’d need samples of both to do comparisons. It seems this “meh” stuff might be missing some of the dopamine component of the roll, hence the lethargy, poor mood, etc.

And then finally serotonin but I think for all these you’d need samples of both good and bad product or else you’d have nothing to compare it to.

-GC

 

[user666]

Unfortunately oxytocin is probably the best one of the bunch as that is the “love” aspect that everyone seems to be missing the most.

Do you still think that after watching this video ?



There are some papers published by this author on that subject, too.

 

[G_Chem]

Well as I watch this I disagree with some of the generalized observations as well as his use of Freudian theories.

Also while there are similarities to MDMA and the post orgasmic state they aren’t the same.

I should be more clear on oxytocin’s role. It is what allows us to trust a complete stranger like you’ve known them since day 1. It’s what bonds you with others, and I disagree when he says you don’t want contact with those people after. When I roll with someone I just get closer and closer, and festivals would be hell if you didn’t want contact after a roll.

Also MBDB has been found to be far inferior to MDMA and not comparable to MDMA. The fact he seems to use MDMA, MDEA, and MBDB interchangeably further loses credibility in my eyes.

He just connected one aspect of the MDMA experience with the post orgasmic state which, while similar in a few aspects, isn’t even close to the whole picture.

Also someone questions him on my MBDB statement and he kinda is like “yea but I tried it and it’s the same..” How is his sample size of 1 better than ALL the people that say it lacks.

This guy frankly comes across as arrogant and his quick anger at the light guy left a bad taste in my mouth.

All that said I did/do appreciate his desire to research this subject. (Note: I commented here as I watched.)

I’ve looked a lot into oxytocin and MDMA. It is a major aspect of the experience. Humans want this answer of one single thing that causes all the effects and can’t grasp the synergy of multiple factors that give the “magic” we seek.

MDMA has one of the more complex pharmacological profiles and all parts of it are why it’s the king of empathogens.

-GC

 

[user666]

Is the takeaway from this Torsten's lecture that Oxytocin levels are not consistent in MDMA users but Prolactin levels are ?

 

[indigoaura]

@user666 I found this to be a very interesting and informative article about the documented, measurable effects of MDMA in comparison to LSD and D-Amphetamine: https://www.nature.com/articles/s41386-019-0569-3

 

[G_Chem]

Is the takeaway from this Torsten's lecture that Oxytocin levels are not consistent in MDMA users but Prolactin levels are ?

No his lecture is in regards to the similarities between the MDMA state and the post orgasmic state, he then uses this to postulate that prolactin is much more important in the overall experience than oxytocin based on this along with the fact MBDB doesn’t release oxytocin.

Oxytocin is a component of the MDMA experience he doesn’t deny that, he’s just trying to say the majority of MDMA’s effects are due to prolactin.

I think we can all agree that while you can sometimes feel certain similarities between MDMA and post orgasm they are still two different experiences. I’m not in a state of overly trusting others like MDMA, that’s the oxytocin.

He again disregards that MBDB doesn’t have nearly the same heart opening effect by claiming that “he’s tried it and it’s the same” pretty unscientific to me...

-GC

 

[indigoaura]

Got to roll back my previous statements about my roll. I ended up getting quite sick yesterday. Dizzy and nauseous. Magnesium helped. This weird pattern of feeling fine the day after the roll and then being sick to my stomach/dizzy for about 2-3 days after that is something I have only dealt with after sub-par, "meh" rolls. After a magic roll, there would be an afterglow followed by a day or two of moodiness/depression, and an overall re-set to normal within a week.

I really feel like this article is pivotal: https://sci-hub.tw/https://doi.org/10.1124/jpet.105.084426

"...transporter-mediated release induced by a releasing drug can be blocked by a drug with pure uptake inhibitory activity."

Looking at the charts for what happened to MDMA release when paired with substances 12 and 13 is pretty telling. You can see how the MDMA alone would have responded, but how the response is totally flat-lined with the addition of those blocking compounds.

 

[indigoaura]

I think we can all agree that while you can sometimes feel certain similarities between MDMA and post orgasm they are still two different experiences.

IMO, good MDMA is not post-orgasmic. Pre-orgasmic maybe. To classify it as post-orgasmic completely misses it.

 

[indigoaura]

This is interesting:

Side Effects of MDMA (Molly/Ecstasy)

Read about MDMA's (Molly/Ecstasy) side effects, including anxiety, dizziness and feeling cold during use.

rollsafe.org

Quite a few things stand out to me here. Notice how many people reported feeling cold. Yet, feeling cold is one of the things that stands out to me about less stellar product, while I used to always feel hot and want to remove clothes on the good product. However, look at the numbers for drowsiness and fatigue. Nobody is getting tired, yet, feeling tired is such a huge characteristic of the product I get.

 

[draculic acid69]

Well as I watch this I disagree with some of the generalized observations as well as his use of Freudian theories.

Also while there are similarities to MDMA and the post orgasmic state they aren’t the same.

I should be more clear on oxytocin’s role. It is what allows us to trust a complete stranger like you’ve known them since day 1. It’s what bonds you with others, and I disagree when he says you don’t want contact with those people after. When I roll with someone I just get closer and closer, and festivals would be hell if you didn’t want contact after a roll.

Also MBDB has been found to be far inferior to MDMA and not comparable to MDMA. The fact he seems to use MDMA, MDEA, and MBDB interchangeably further loses credibility in my eyes.

He just connected one aspect of the MDMA experience with the post orgasmic state which, while similar in a few aspects, isn’t even close to the whole picture.

Also someone questions him on my MBDB statement and he kinda is like “yea but I tried it and it’s the same..” How is his sample size of 1 better than ALL the people that say it lacks.

This guy frankly comes across as arrogant and his quick anger at the light guy left a bad taste in my mouth.

All that said I did/do appreciate his desire to research this subject. (Note: I commented here as I watched.)

I’ve looked a lot into oxytocin and MDMA. It is a major aspect of the experience. Humans want this answer of one single thing that causes all the effects and can’t grasp the synergy of multiple factors that give the “magic” we seek.

MDMA has one of the more complex pharmacological profiles and all parts of it are why it’s the king of empathogens.

-GC

If you're interested in the huggy lovey vibe mdma gives I can see how mbdb
Might not be as awesome as mdma but as someone who takes it not for the lovey huggy feeling but the crazy eyes rolling in the back of your
head,want to be fully up intense euphoric peak feeling im telling you mbdb is far superior.to say mdma and mbdb are interchangeable is very realistic as when I had both going on a lot of ppl preferred the mbdb.this is a group of about a hundred ppl so u cant play the personal preference card on that one.it was a big sample size.the peak is so much more intense and visual and trippy and messy so if you're in it for the connectedness it's still there but the lovey huggy Ness is turned down a little.not too much but a little bit.less empathogenic but more visual and euphoric.and hectic.

 

[user666]

Arrgh, Oxytocin is very volatile, the sampled blood must be drawn into a chilled test tube with EDTA and Aprotinin, centrifuged and stored at -70deg.C during transport.
This makes it very difficult for "patients" to just send me their blood.

 

[G_Chem]

Arrgh, Oxytocin is very volatile, the sampled blood must be drawn into a chilled test tube with EDTA and Aprotinin, centrifuged and stored at -70deg.C during transport.
This makes it very difficult for "patients" to just send me their blood.

We understand this, it doesn’t make it any less important to try analyze one day. Well it seems people can’t even agree on whether good MDMA is supposed to make your dick hard or not either so I’m not sure if looking at Prolactin will work either.

I will say that while I disagree with the researchers conclusions he did make very interesting argument that showed me the importance of Prolactin in the overall experience.

If you're interested in the huggy lovey vibe mdma gives I can see how mbdb
Might not be as awesome as mdma but as someone who takes it not for the lovey huggy feeling but the crazy eyes rolling in the back of your
head,want to be fully up intense euphoric peak feeling im telling you mbdb is far superior.to say mdma and mbdb are interchangeable is very realistic as when I had both going on a lot of ppl preferred the mbdb.this is a group of about a hundred ppl so u cant play the personal preference card on that one.it was a big sample size.the peak is so much more intense and visual and trippy and messy so if you're in it for the connectedness it's still there but the lovey huggy Ness is turned down a little.not too much but a little bit.less empathogenic but more visual and euphoric.and hectic.

As I’ve said before your the first person to say this and nearly ALL other reports disagree with both your and his statements. He even gets called out on it and he kind of agrees but then follows up with “yea close enough” kind of statement.

I also seriously doubt the authenticity of your material unless your talking about circa 90’s product. MBDB hasn’t been synthesized except in very small niche batches since then.

Frankly I call bullshit on the “hundred” of supposed test subjects. I’m an actual facilitator, have supplied countless people with various experiences and I can’t honestly say I’ve ever watched 100 people all take the same batch of something and be able to make conclusions from that.

Find me three reports online that corroborate your experiences of MBDB being superior to MDMA and I’ll start listening.



I’m gonna be honest with ya’ll I’m starting to doubt we’ll ever find the answer to this question, I’m beginning to give up hope. I’ve been extensively studying this since before 2010 and while I’ve gained a grasp on this, all I’ve really learned is that MDMA can vary...

As I read last night in the old Hive forum I saw post similar to this about meth regarding different synthetic routes giving vastly different durations and effects. He quickly met all the same problems we have here.

MDMA variation is a real thing but I’m not sure if we can ever fully agree on what’s the best.

-GC

 

[indigoaura]

I’m gonna be honest with ya’ll I’m starting to doubt we’ll ever find the answer to this question, I’m beginning to give up hope. I’ve been extensively studying this since before 2010 and while I’ve gained a grasp on this, all I’ve really learned is that MDMA can vary...

The only way we are going to "solve" this issue is through lab work. GCMS may or may not be enough to see what we need to see. I am hoping that when I get files back on my Meh samples, that people on the forum who know how to read GCMS will be able to offer insights into what is going on.

 

[indigoaura]

Is there anyone in this thread who can teach how to run a column for cleaning MDMA?

 

[indigoaura]

Inhibition of serotonin transporters disrupts the enhancement of fear memory extinction by 3,4-methylenedioxymethamphetamine (MDMA) - PubMed

We validate enhancement of fear memory extinction by MDMA in a translational behavioral model, and reveal the importance of 5-HTT and 5-HT_2A receptors to this effect. These observations support future clinical research of MDMA as an adjunct to exposure therapy, and provide important...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

This article demonstrates that when 5-HT transporters are blocked, MDMA no longer results in extinction of FPS. Extinction of fear-potentiated startle is one of the primary mechanisms for treatment of PTSD. The article also points out, "5-HT release alone did not enhance extinction. Blockade of MDMA's effect by 5-HTT inhibition also downregulated 5-HT2A-mediated behavior, and 5-HT2A antagonism disrupted MDMA's effect on extinction."

What this says to me is that 5-HT transporters play a crucial role in the primary effects of MDMA, and when they are blocked there are multiple mechanisms of action that are shut down.

 

[thegreenhand]

Inhibition of serotonin transporters disrupts the enhancement of fear memory extinction by 3,4-methylenedioxymethamphetamine (MDMA) - PubMed

We validate enhancement of fear memory extinction by MDMA in a translational behavioral model, and reveal the importance of 5-HTT and 5-HT_2A receptors to this effect. These observations support future clinical research of MDMA as an adjunct to exposure therapy, and provide important...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

This article demonstrates that when 5-HT transporters are blocked, MDMA no longer results in extinction of FPS. Extinction of fear-potentiated startle is one of the primary mechanisms for treatment of PTSD. The article also points out, "5-HT release alone did not enhance extinction. Blockade of MDMA's effect by 5-HTT inhibition also downregulated 5-HT2A-mediated behavior, and 5-HT2A antagonism disrupted MDMA's effect on extinction."

What this says to me is that 5-HT transporters play a crucial role in the primary effects of MDMA, and when they are blocked there are multiple mechanisms of action that are shut down.

I was always under the impression that MDMA essentially makes the 5HT transporter run in reverse. Effectively shuttling serotonin out of the presynaptic vesicles. Other things like oxytocin levels rising may be indirectly to due to the empathy felt

 

[indigoaura]

I was always under the impression that MDMA essentially makes the 5HT transporter run in reverse. Effectively shuttling serotonin out of the presynaptic vesicles. Other things like oxytocin levels rising may be indirectly to due to the empathy felt

There is a mechanism where some of the transporters operate in reverse, as I recall from the Dacesafe slide show. However, serotonin release has always been theorized to be the primary reason for MDMA's effects, although obviously the reason for the effects is multi-faceted.

If you have not seen it before, this is a great visual: https://dancesafe.org/drug-information/ecstasy-slideshow/

What this article specifically points out, however, is that one of the primary means of PTSD treatment appears to be the direct result of the 5-HT transporters, and when they are blocked, that effect no longer occurs. Since other articles have already demonstrated that synthesis impurities in microgram ranges are blocking those 5-HT transporters, (https://sci-hub.tw/https://doi.org/10.1124/jpet.105.084426) this leads me to conclude that the loss of effects we are noticing may be due to something similar.

I will also say this...I do not personally buy into the idea that oxytocin is primarily responsible for the MDMA euphoria and empathy. Oxytocin release is in overdrive during childbirth. I've been present to witness several childbirths, and let me tell you...nobody is rolling. Nobody feels good. I'm sure it contributes to the overall experience, but I think focusing on oxytocin as the source of MDMA magic is barking up the wrong tree.

 

[MBaggott]

Apologies for jumping in this thread without reading the entire thread.

As several have said, the difference between batches is never enantiomers.

Oxytocin is not likely to be a good biomarker for the effects of interest. As indigoaura implies, it is at best necessary but not sufficient. We also don't really know if blood levels after MDMA correlate with brain levels. Plus, the vasoconstriction from MDMA breaks red blood cells during blood draws which falsely inflates oxytocin concentrations. I basically don't believe any of the human studies measuring oxytocin for this reason.

Contaminants from the synthesis seem like a plausible theory to me. But I would suggest they are more likely to be altering metabolism in the gut and liver than changing effects in the brain. There are admittedly a few contaminants that are known to bind to reuptake transporters (see Pifli et al 2005 doi:10.1124/jpet.105.084426). But I doubt these are ever make it into the brain in high enough concentrations to matter.

I'd more readily believe contaminants alter metabolism. There must be many that are substrates for cyp2d6 and other enzymes. A reason I think altered metabolism could strongly affect the roll is because we know MDMA hits people who lack cyp2d6 differently from normal metabolizers. You can see this in Figure 2 of Schmidt et al 2016 (link below). Even though cyp2d6 gets inhibited by MDMA, it likely eats up a few tens of mg of MDMA first. Without any 2d6, you get a faster peak and a different ratio of MDMA to crappy physiologically active metabolites. And keep in mind that any biproducts of synthesis don't need to make it into the brain to have these effects, they only need to compete with MDMA for enzymes in the gut.

Now, if this theory is true, it may be that pure MDMA is actually less "enjoyable" than MDMA with some enzyme substrates/inhibitors thrown in. In which case, maybe you need a tiny dose of dextromethorphan or something a few hours before the MDMA to recover the magic of yesteryear's MDMA.

schmid2016 mdma cyp2d6.pdf

drive.google.com