What is wrong with the MDMA available today?

[draculic acid69]

It unfortunately isn’t used simply due to yields, purity and it can sometimes be finicky. The thing is though the impurities May have been what gave the 90’s product that “dance all night, can’t stop moving” effect.

-GC

The leuckart was used bcoz on such a large scale it's simple to do,the ingredients are cheap and available and the yeild is as good as any other method.its probably still being used as there's no way nmf is harder to get than it used to be and because of that I doubt it will stop being used.

 

[draculic acid69]

A

It unfortunately isn’t used simply due to yields, purity and it can sometimes be finicky. The thing is though the impurities May have been what gave the 90’s product that “dance all night, can’t stop moving” effect.

-GC

Also impurities certainly wouldn't contribute positive effects.

 

[ThreePointCircle]

R ppl in Europe also getting this?

I've tried a different vendor each time over the last 10 years in the uk. All varying levels of meh. I know there's going to be people saying tolerance, etc, but that doesn't explain it being bad when I first came back to it since the 90s. And I was never a heavy user. Could be a DM thing. Tbf, maybe it is me but I'd like to work on the hypothesis that it isn't and keep looking for a solution.

 

[PsychedelicSummer]

In my experience most DN MDMA in northern Europe has been varying degrees of Meh. My hunch is that the answer may be related to an isomer, an isomer that somehow block the receptors 2C-B binds to (as I've tried Nexus flipping with MehDMA with severely diminished effects of the 2C-B).

 

[sekio]

GCMS can indeed differentiate most positional isomers & usually they have different MS spectrums. So nobody is going to mistake a positional isomer of MDMA for the real stuff when tested that way.

 

[PsychedelicSummer]

I don't have enough knowledge on the subject, so excuse me if I'm not clear or if this have been covered earlier. I wonder if test centers or someone else have done, what is described in the second sentence in following quote, on MehDMA: (regarding identification of regioisomers of MDMA) "The position of substitution for the methylenedioxy ring is not easily determined by mass spectral techniques, and the ultimate identification of any one of these amines with the elimination of the other nine must depend heavily upon chromatographic methods. The chromatographic separation of these 10 uniquely regioisomeric amines are studied using reversed-phase liquid chromatographic methods with gradient elution and gas chromatographic techniques with temperature program optimization. (from: J Chromatogr Sci. 2000 Aug;38(8):329-37. "Chromatographic and mass spectral methods of identification for the side-chain and ring regioisomers of methylenedioxymethamphetamine")

 

[psy997]

When the same people are experiencing the same dismal effect from a drug; from numerous batches, for years, it is obvious what the issue is.

It's not that there is a problem with the MDMA or the labs testing it, or a conspiracy, or a microgram impurity or the composition of the capsules is causing a reaction, or any of these highly improbable external factors.

It's not the MDMA. It is the response that you are getting to MDMA. There could be a million reasons for that, every one of them more likely than a common chemical flaw which has gone unnoticed by every forensic lab, testing facility and researcher outside of the posters in this thread who have convinced themselves that there is a chemical issue with the MDMA (certainly not a neurological, physiological, psychological, dietary, metabolic or chemical issue with them), despite having no evidence to back that up.

If you are going to continue claiming there is a product being sold as MDMA, which tests as MDMA, but isn't MDMA, you need to provide chemical evidence. If this is so common, there is no reason that hasn't been provided already.

It's not the same people experiencing the same things over and over. For instance, I just attended a party five weeks ago at which 7+ people, including myself, all used the same batch of MDMA and lack of magic effects were observed in every individual. I personally watched one individual sit in front of a fire, surrounded by people enjoying themselves, chain smoke cigarettes, and talk to no-one all night long. It's obvious that something is wrong with the MDMA when no-one is pro-social, no-one is gurning, no-one is experiencing enhanced tactile sensations and subsequent touching/cuddling, etc.

We've covered this in many ways, whether that be virgin users taking product, unaware of its quality, and failing to have a classic MDMA experience, observing groups of individuals all lacking tell-tale signs of intoxication, etc.

"If you are going to continue claiming... you need to provide chemical evidence"

With all due respect, what in the fuck do you think we're doing here?

Once again, you embody the DISC or Distributed Information Suppression Complex so beautifully articulated by Eric Weinstein recently. Which, I actually owe another poster here a link to, so I'll be on that soon.

 

[psy997]

I'm an asshole to you and everybody in this world including me. But when you get used to it, there's something useful behind my toxic rant.

Several times you guys had problem with searching for a specific chart, study, post etc. I think G_chem even started a new thread - part 2 (that was merged back to this original one) in order to gather all the knowledge on the 1st page. I think it would be smart to consider a new online platform to continue your research. You won't have to waste time by looking for a specific chart or information.

Also, I'm not saying that you should leave this to academic researchers. I'm only saying that they don't believe this issue exists because there is no solid evidence and also that their help may be crucial for finding the culprit of mehDMA or even magicDMA. But you still can have a important role in this. Academics are limited by a code of ethics. It's hard for them to get their research idea past the bureaucracy. You don't have these limitations and you can do this kind of research, conducted on human first-time users probably, more easily.

And please send me a link to this podcast about the DISC.

Hey sorry I never got around the replying.

I'm all good with asshole-ishness so long as it's owned :D

My issue was that your suggestion seemed offered in a condescending or superior tone instead of one of genuine desire for the betterment of this thread. I do agree with you.

DISC podcasts here:



First one explains it.

 

[draculic acid69]

GCMS can indeed differentiate most positional isomers & usually they have different MS spectrums. So nobody is going to mistake a positional isomer of MDMA for the real stuff when tested that way.

So there's no chance of the nitrogen being at the 1position instead of the 2 position at all? That rules out my theory.

 

[draculic acid69]

I don't have enough knowledge on the subject, so excuse me if I'm not clear or if this have been covered earlier. I wonder if test centers or someone else have done, what is described in the second sentence in following quote, on MehDMA: (regarding identification of regioisomers of MDMA) "The position of substitution for the methylenedioxy ring is not easily determined by mass spectral techniques, and the ultimate identification of any one of these amines with the elimination of the other nine must depend heavily upon chromatographic methods. The chromatographic separation of these 10 uniquely regioisomeric amines are studied using reversed-phase liquid chromatographic methods with gradient elution and gas chromatographic techniques with temperature program optimization. (from: J Chromatogr Sci. 2000 Aug;38(8):329-37. "Chromatographic and mass spectral methods of identification for the side-chain and ring regioisomers of methylenedioxymethamphetamine")

So is 2,3methylenedioxy not 3,4md etc a possibility?

 

[draculic acid69]

Has anyone performed a marquis/mandelin reagent test
On the meh stuff? If so what were the colours?

 

[user666]

So there's no chance of the nitrogen being at the 1position instead of the 2 position at all? That rules out my theory.

I think there were two papers quoted in this thread that identified some MDMA-like compounds that looked the same on GCMS.
AFAIR 2,3-methylenedioxy compounds were not one of them

Also, I think the Marquis colorimetric test was always straight-to-black (without the intermediate dark blue) for the meh stuff
There was also a person in this thread that could actually taste the difference.

 

[Goodwalt]

Has anyone performed a marquis/mandelin reagent test
On the meh stuff? If so what were the colours?

I believe marquis goes straight to black with meh and when it's magic it gets purple/dark blue first

 

[draculic acid69]

I believe marquis goes straight to black with meh and when it's magic it gets purple/dark blue first

I know mbdp test black rather than the blue black of mdma but no one would call that stuff meh.

 

[Kaden_Nite]

With all due respect, what in the fuck do you think we're doing here?

You are making claims and then becoming hostile when someone asks you to provide evidence.

Don't try to put labels on me just because you can't back up your own claims.

This issue was recently discussed on another site and the person who started that thread claimed to have been making it and knew other people making it and was also getting this meh stuff from other producers.anyway after a few pages this person performed a purification process called column chromatography on the meh stuff and lo and behold the now purified stuff was no longer meh but was now magic.

If it's the same guy who was posting all of that stuff here, it can be filed under bullshit and disregarded.

Edit: In response to some of your other questions;
-Testing facilities are definitely able to differentiate structural isomers of MDMA. GC/MS seems the most relied on technique. 2,3 was ruled out long ago.
-Product of virtually every known synthesis route seems to have appeared in the US over the past few years.
-This 'drugs aint what they used to be' phenomena has been going on since.. forever.
-In Australia, only difference I've noticed to when I was taking MDMA over ten years ago is that crystal and caps seem to be generally favoured over presses.

People seem happy with it, though based on the brown, tan, yellow colours, it doesn't seem as well washed as it could be.

There was a black batch a couple of years ago. Acetone washed one third away.

 

[indigoaura]

Love the way the negative posters are going to swoop in now because there was a brief conflict in this thread...

Anyone who does not believe in the mission of the thread and thinks it is a waste of time can go and post in any of the many other threads available on Bluelight. Nobody is making you post here, or forcing you to read through the "foofarah." Bottom line is, if we are all wrong and we all have tolerance issues (including the virgin users, that would be something), then we are not hurting anyone by spinning our wheels.

Prior to Vash's involvement in the thread, the conversation had advanced based on published, peer reviewed research articles. Drugs Data was involved and was investigating one of the issues presented in published research. Vash entered the thread and offered NMR testing, and the thread pursued the line of reasoning that was being presented through the NMR data. Whether that information was legitimate or a red herring, I honestly do not know. The info that Vash presented did line up with some of the published research, but it also cut off a second line of inquiry that I think was equally valid. However, when pushed for verification of the data, Vash was unable/unwilling to provide it, and the individual he was working with lost multiple key pieces of information. So, I don't feel like we can really rely on that information.

The thread has been largely collaborative and co-operative with surprisingly little drama until recently. As I already said, it is unfortunate that the thread degenerated like that, but now it is time to re-focus.

@draculic acid69 Some of our primary contributors and more knowledgeable posters have not been able to post for some time, and may be held up for awhile. Vash also claimed to have cleaned "Meh" product and turned it to Magic with a column based on NMR results. However, the "magic" product was never consumed, so it was only magic in imaging and theory.

A lot of people have used reagent tests on MehDMA. I have never had magic and meh side by side to test. In my observations of reagent test results, meh goes straight to black on marquis. I have a long post somewhere in here that details Marquis, Simon's, and Mandelin for a variety of "meh" samples. There were a few people who felt that "magic" product produced a quick green on Mandelin at the start of the reaction.

@PsychedelicSummer Interesting you bring up 2CB. In my experience, MehDMA plus 2CB was unpleasant if the MehDMA was done first. Not a good combo. However, the one time I did the 2CB first, the MDMA felt less Meh. I feel like this could indicate some kind of receptor issue.

 

[indigoaura]

To any new posters to the thread, here is a summary I wrote up awhile back:

We have noticed significant variation between MDMA batches that have all tested as MDMA through GCMS lab analysis. These variations have been confirmed by multiple people and under a wide variety of circumstances. Variation includes lack of traditionally observable physical phenomena such as mydriasis and profuse sweating, as well as a lack of traditional sensory/tactile enhancement and euphoria. Before you assume the answer is user tolerance, please note that the variation has also been noted in "virgin" users of MDMA. To simplify our discussion of this phenomena we have been calling traditional product with typical results "magic" and non-traditional product with muted results "meh."

Our own research has revealed a few possibilities for what may be occurring.

Here are some of the research articles that we read while considering this issue:

This research article seems to indicate that there are structurally similar compounds that could masquerade as MDMA to GCMS testing: http://etd.auburn.edu/bitstream/handle/10415/1304/AWAD_TAMER...

This article shows that some synthesis byproducts could have an impact on transporters and also on the effect of MDMA: https://sci-hub.tw/https://doi.org/10.1124/jpet.105.084426

These articles discuss variations in synthesis methods, and how those variations produce different byproducts:

1. Sci-Hub | A review of impurity profiling and synthetic route of manufacture of methylamphetamine, 3,4-methylenedioxymethylamphetamine, amphetamine, dimethylamphetamine and p-methoxyamphetamine. Forensic Science International, 224(1-3), 8–26 | 10.1016/j.forsciint.2012.10.040

2. Sci-Hub | Determination of synthesis method of ecstasy based on the basic impurities. Forensic Science International, 152(2-3), 175–184 | 10.1016/j.forsciint.2004.08.003

3. Basic and neutral route specific impurities in MDMA prepared by different synthesis methods Comparison of impurity profiles

Currently, it seems to us that variations in MDMA synthesis methods result in variations of product due to either a) presence of active impurities or b) substitution of structurally similar compounds.

 

[indigoaura]

There is another published paper titled: "Chromatographic and Mass Spectral Methods of Identification for the Side-Chain and Ring Regioisomers of Methylenedioxymethamphetamine" written by Laura Aalberg and Jack DeRuiter. I have this as a PDF, but I don't have a link for it. I need to upload it somewhere. It was posted some time back in the thread, but the link was doing odd things depending on what country you were accessing the link from. The abstract states:

The popular drug of abuse 3,4-methylenedioxymethamphetamine
(MDMA) is one of a total of 10 regioisomeric 2,3- and 3,4-
methylenedioxyphenethylamines of MW 193 that yields
regioisomeric fragment ions with equivalent mass (m/z 58 and
135/136) in the electron-impact (EI) mass spectrum. Thus, these
10 methylenedioxyphenethylamines are uniquely isomeric; they
have the same molecular weight and equivalent major fragments
in their mass spectra. The specific identification of one of these
compounds (i.e., Ecstasy or 3,4-MDMA) in a forensic drug
sample depends upon the analyst's ability to eliminate the other
regioisomers as possible interfering or coeluting substances.
This study reports the synthesis, chemical properties, spectral
characterization, and chromatographic analysis of these
10 unique regioisomers. The ten 2,3- and 3,4-regioisomers of
MDMA are synthesized from commercially available precursor
chemicals. In the EImass spectra, the side-chain regioisomers show
some variation in the relative intensity of the major ions, with the
exception of only one or two minor ions that might be considered
side-chain specific fragments. The position of substitution for the
methylenedioxy ring is not easily determined by mass spectral
techniques, and the ultimate identification of anyone of these
amines with the elimination of the other nine must depend heavily
upon chromatographic methods. The chromatographic separation of
these 10 uniquely regioisomeric amines are studied using reversedphase
liquid chromatographic methods with gradient elution and
gas chromatographic techniques with temperature program
optimization.

Worth noting that this paper emphasizes the importance of NMR, but acknowledges that NMR is typically not available:

Although nuclear magnetic resonance (NMR)can be a very useful method
for regioisomer differentiation, it is not a technique that has
direct application for all areas of forensic drug chemistry, and it is
not readily available in most forensic laboratories. Thus, the analysis
of street drug samples and analytical toxicology must depend
heavily upon chromatographic methods as well as mass spectrometry
(MS).

 

[indigoaura]

Finally, one more paper with Laura Aalberg as co-author. I find this one interesting because it is looking at seized samples, and finds similar isobaric substances that are not MDMA (but appear to be):

The Identification of 3,4-MDMA from Its Mass Equivalent Isomers and Isobaric Substances Using Fast LC–ESI-MS–MS

 

[draculic acid69]

You are making claims and then becoming hostile when someone asks you to provide evidence.

Don't try to put labels on me just because you can't back up your own claims.


If it's the same guy who was posting all of that stuff here, it can be filed under bullshit and disregarded.

Edit: In response to some of your other questions;
-Testing facilities are definitely able to differentiate structural isomers of MDMA. GC/MS seems the most relied on technique. 2,3 was ruled out long ago.
-Product of virtually every known synthesis route seems to have appeared in the US over the past few years.
-This 'drugs aint what they used to be' phenomena has been going on since.. forever.
-In Australia, only difference I've noticed to when I was taking MDMA over ten years ago is that crystal and caps seem to be generally favoured over presses.

People seem happy with it, though based on the brown, tan, yellow colours, it doesn't seem as well washed as it could be.

There was a black batch a couple of years ago. Acetone washed one third away.

In Australia most mdma I've come across not already pressed in pills was a brown crystal.only once have I seen white mdma.