What is wrong with the MDMA available today?

[babooon87]

I 100 % agree with the cold feeling and it's very irritating. Had to go hide under my blankets as I was freezing from a large dose once. I also doesnt really make me sweat much compared to legit stuff that has always left me completely drenched in sweat every time.

And sorry if I jumped on the isomer theory and dismssed the impurities. In all honesty, I had not completely read all the thread before writing my first post. Now that I read it all a few of the comments stroke a cord with me and had me thinking quite a bit.

1- someone has exposed the unlikely scenario that the bad mdma is tainted with another compound present in the low microgram range and could pass undetected on most comment lab tests.

Someone talked about super potent Fentanyl analogues but it was quickly dismissed. While l also think it is unlikely, we have seen so much drugs being cut more and more with these super potent opioids in recent years with some areas way more plagued by this practice than others. And it is not just opioids they cut with it but also cocaine and speed and why the hell not mdma when you think about it. And to say it is unlikely because it never showed up in tested samples maybe pnly proves they are putting undetectable amounts.

OR traces get in there because it is prepared in the same lab or just the chinese labs from which the precursors are obtained (the fentanyl like drugs are also being made mostly from chinese labs so I don't know. The presence of an opioid could explain the small pupils as these drugs shrink them to needle size and from my experience as an opioid addict for many years I can tell you that the pupil constriction of the opioid amost always win when mixed with a compound that causes dilation. It could also explain the sleepiness\mongy effect. In my experience also, taking an opioid with mdma tends to dull the experience and make the experience kind of boring and devoid of the magic feeling of empathy ( opioids numb emotions and that's precisely why they are popular. It could also explain the nausea and general gut issues. With that in mind could the LTC people are talking about simply a case of mild opioid withdrawal? Again that theory is unlikely but we never know...

2- there was also talk of MDPH as an impurity after it was found in active quantities in a sample tested. That I think is maybe the closest thing we have to a possible explanation. This is from wiki :

" the dosage range is listed as 160?240 mg, and the duration as 3?5 hours.[1] MDPH's effects are very similar to those of MDA: they both are smooth and "stoning," and do not cause any visuals. "

Stoning effects like MDA without the visuals fits the profile of this bad MDMA. The duration and dosage also fit with how people describe their experience (This dosage would make sense if some of this MDMA contains exclusively MDPH. Why not ? Producers would sure be happy campers in finding out an other drug that has mdma'ish effecrs AND tests exactly the same way in most labs. wouldnt that be the ultimate Holy grail for unscrupulous black market producers ?

After all, they have been " plagued " with drug testing being more and more common so they can't throw pipes or some other RC just to have their client base burnt after a week because someone in the area sent their product to test with the results displayed to the public. I mean who will want to consume a batch that looks exactly like what they have in thr dame area but comes out on e-data as : TFMPP mixed with caffeine and some mephedrone analog.

The pratice of drug testing started gaining in popularity a few years before the whole phenomenon described in this thread started to occur. Have they been actively searching for a compound they could use to cut or replace mdma but fool the lab analysis completely and finally found the perfect candidate ? It would not be that far fetched knowing they use levamisole tu cut cocaine at the source because it has similar chemical behavior as coke so when people freebase their cocaine it all goes along with it and people are fooled in thinking they have very pure coke since the amount left after the freebasing is so high. Anyway I will see if I can dig up more info about this MDPH.

this part also caught my attention:

" Shulgin describes MDPH as a promoter; it promotes the effects of other drugs, similarly to 2C-D. " It's funny I was just thinking today that this new mdma is only enjoyable when mixed with other drugs because it potentiates them like crazy without doing anything interesting on it's own. " I also said to myself before I had read anything about MDPH a few pages back in this thread : " It has this pharmaceutical tofu effect Shulgin was talking about when describing 2C-D. Anyway I have to go to sleep it is 5 am here and I have work in a few hours. This thread is so fascinating I lost quite a bit of sleep in the past week just reading the posts and thinking about it.

Edit - I also cannot help but consider a conspiracy theory and MAPS being a player in the whole scheme. After reading some people approach them about this issie and they refused to even discuss it at ?ll doesn't help. The tim?ime also fits between the rise of the new synth and the success of maps at getting their process approved. Wouldn't they have advantage that people suffering from ptsd or other mental health issues go score mdma and heal proving to everyone that the drug is almost solely responsible for the healing (because lets face it it really is the case) and that their very expensive clinical setup is not necessary to go throught. I know maps is a non-profit but I don't think other players like the pharm compagnies producing the mdma for them are...

 

[Xorkoth]

In my experience, although the meh-DMA does not produce the depression or "suicide Tuesday" feeling of old MDMA, it does produce physical side effects that traditional MDMA does not. In particular, I experience stomach upset, nausea, indigestion, and dizziness. These were never issues for me before, even when taking high doses of MDMA in the past (5 pills in a night).

Right now, just based on everything we have talked about so far, I think there is something else in the product that is making me sick and also blocking the action of the MDMA.

With this new mdma it feels as if the dopamine component of the roll is missing. The comeup is the same as a high dose of proper mdma ( intense, uncomfortable, anxious, nauseating, feeling cold, shaky etc ) but with good mdma this stage only lasts about 10-15 min after which you get the dopamine kick and you start rolling and feel awesome.

With the new stuff it is like you stay stuck in that comeup state for 1-2 hours and it never really settles and becomes comfortable or euphoric. The huge dose they put in those pills makes this comeup feeling very very intense and you feel like " oh my god... i'm going to roll sooo hard ! " but you never do. The comeup just goes on and on and on. When it finally settles and you stop feeling like shit you are already coming down.

I have tested the dopamine theory by taking methamphetamine on top of one of these new rolls and like I expected the experience felt much more like a real roll.

So yeah, I am also of the opinion that the more " psychedelic " isomer is favored in that synthesis over the " stimulant " one or something else about it inhibits dopamine from being released like it should. It has always been a consensus that dopamine play an important role in the mdma magic as similar compounds that are devoid of dopamine activity like mbdb or mdai are reported as lacking and even dysphoric.

I also did the comparison as I recently had the chance to get legit saffrole smelling old school mdma as well as the new stuff from another contact and the difference was like night and day. The saffrole stuff felt great, smooth, euphoric, empathetic, social. I had completely forgotten how good mdma is supposed to feel like. I had swore off this drug for a few years now because it just did not feel that good anymore. I thought the problem was in my own chemistry which seemed pretty odd because I never came close to abusing the stuff. The experience just changed overnight around 2010. Tried it again after 3-4 years of abstinence and it still wasnt any better. I had come to the conclusion that I just didnt enjoy rolling anymore because I'm too old for this shit. I was wrong and it turns out it's the drug that changed and not my brain.

I also noticed like most people that my pupils hardly dilate with the new material. Again, I thought it was my personal chemistry that changed because I remembered having HUGE pupils when the rolls were good before 2010. In fact, when I took the good stuff a month ago my pupils dilated once again. I also get no eye wiggles with the new synth which is one of the effects I always had very strongly and consistently.

I think we are starting to have more than enough anecdotal reports describing the exact same experience to keep dismissing it as being nostalgia, tolerance and expectations playing with our heads. I also talked with a younger coworker that started using mdma in the last few years and he keeps telling me how he has difficult comedowns immediately after the experience from as little as one 100 mg cap. This is not normal, especially with that low of a dose. You never get a comedown immediately after or even the day after with good mdma. In fact, you feel great and in a good mood the day after and when you do get a comedown it is because you took a very large amount and it comes 2-3 days later.

Hope we get to the bottom of this somehow. Interesting discussion to say the least.

This is precisely what I feel from the last "MDMA" I got. Incidentally, I believe what I had was 4-FEA, which I went through a gram of on purpose a little while before this. It was definitely highly serotonergic, but with no dopamine component felt. I didn't really want to talk to people much, it basically felt physically pleasurable and I sort of just felt stoned mentally (I don't mean like a weed high). I didn't get bad emotional comedown effects afterwards, but physically the next day I felt pretty physically awful and my heart would pound very fast and hard most of the next day. All the same characteristics of 4-FEA.

 

[Hilopsilo]

Babooon87, would you also agree that old MDMA tended towards creating feelings of heat, but this new stuff does the opposite? I always found myself shedding clothes with the old stuff, because I got so hot. With this new stuff, I am piling on blankets and sweat shirts, because I am cold.

Ehh, I'm gonna have to 100% disagree here. MDMA just really changes the way you percieve temperature, if its a little cold, it feels REALLY cold. Ever since the first time I rolled thats what I've noticed, just how cold it makes you when you're not warm. Many memories of leaving the crowd when a festival is over and walking back to camp/hotel and feeling like I'm going to freeze to death when its chilly but not THAT cold.

On the flipside, when I come-up I get REALLY hot and need to get to a cooler area since it feels like if I stay in the crowd I'm going to drop like a fly.

Hell, this past summer with the MehDMA a big part of what I felt was hampering the experience was the whole time I felt uncomfortably hot and couldn't shed enough layers and moving around just made me too hot for comfort. Incidentally it was just a very warm night, which compacted this.

Now, what I do notice is really good MDMA makes you sweat pretty hard. I think this is mainly just because the good stuff will have you dancing like a maniac, while the crappy stuff kinda makes you wanna just sit, sway or lean up against something. Good MDMA can also make my legs feel weak during the come-up, but once that has passed my brain is like "its fucking go time". End up shirtless flailing around howling at the top of my lungs as opposed to curled up in a sweatshirt all munted.

Again, my best analogy for the crappy MDMA is like a dud firework that never quite lifts off, jangly come-up and then fizzles out to an enjoyable, but very wanting experience. On paper this sounds like, hey you just didn't take enough, but this doesn't make sense when you're taking 2x or 3x the dose and it tests as perfectly good.

I agree that yeah, with the good stuff set and setting can't possibly impact it to that degree. I think we're all pretty well versed on the power of set & setting, I fully appreciate how it can change an experience, but the good MDMA just impacts you so viscerally and almost forcefully that it can't just be that.

Can't comment on the comedown since I've never really experienced a comedown from MDMA regardless of "type", unless its just 100% fake MDMA which I have had the displeasure of ingesting a couple times. As well, I've only ever experienced eye wiggles once, and it was one of the first few times I rolled when I was like 15 and I took two quality pressed pills. I have a hunch eye wiggles are produced by taking a larger than normal dose. Good or bad, I've never had eye wiggles from 100mg.

At this point my money is on a similar compound that fools most testing techniques. Whether thats one of the chemicals that glub has pointed out or MDPH I don't know, but thats seems the most likely to me. Even the scientist from energy control conceded this is possible. The minuscule contamination just doesn't seem as likely to me, its not logical that the process of creating MDMA would create a byproduct with orders of magnitude effects compared to the product.

 

[indigoaura]

In regards to MAPS, I have had a few similar conspiracy theories cross my mind. However, I don't actually think this benefits them in the end. If fake MDMA is causing long term comedowns, deaths, and other problems, then negative media could influence their chances of FDA approval. I don't think that is a risk worth taking for them. All it would take would be one high profile teen death for funding for their studies to dry up.

A more likely conspiracy theory, IMO, is that governments or pharmaceutical companies did not want MDMA floating around solving people's problems, inspiring peace etc. MDMA had the power to inspire movements, revolutions. It was the kind of drug to fuel people towards action. I could see those in power deciding to water down the supply with something boring and uninspiring. If half or more than half of street MDMA is not that impressive, then they may curb usage overall. Does anyone here remember the legislation that was passed to make raves illegal and how that basically killed the rave scene? This would go hand in hand with that.

 

[epic11]

Great question! Thats why all of these Dutch pills are excessively high milligrams. Theyre having to make up for something thats missing. 120 mgs of Dutch MDMA isnt enough to make it happen. Its all part of the missing link.

My thoughts exactly.

Yeah, I have even gone up to 135 mg of the stuff I have access to and it is not enough. It does not put you over the thresh-hold to where you need to be, and neither does a re-dose.

Interesting, thanks for your input. Again, interesting.

Also, shezinphx, I agree. Quality MDMA makes you feel amazing nomatter what is going on or where you are. I recall one year being on the verge of breaking up with my partner at that time, and not even wanting to go out, but ending up at this NYE party where I ended up having a blast due to quality MDMA. I could not have gone into it with a worse mindframe or mood, but once it hit, everything was oh so fine.

I actually agree. While set and setting is still important for mdma, any mdma that was the real deal put me into a good headspace no matter what those set and setting were.

Exactly! That would not have been the same outcome with todays MDMA. You would have just ended up more irritated than you were to begin with.

Potentially for sure! I find im much more sad after this theory of something being wrong with mdma. And its not cause of the drug, its cause i didnt actually have a loving helpful roll. Lacking and leaves you feeling even more empty.

Also, remember touch and feel with old school MDMA? Tongue kissing, sex, rubbing etc was so intensified! It was 1000 fold over normal touch and feel. I dont get any of that with the new MDMA. None.

I believe you are right here, while mdma has only made me feel good to touch only once (first time), i can say that most stuff ive done in the last 2 years just feels like a come up to nothing. No touching, no love. But you are definitely on mdma. Gurning, eyes a bit bigger, sweating, have to drink water. But without the love...... ???

edit for facts: Ive tested everything ive ever gotten from my first experience.

 

[epic11]

With this new mdma it feels as if the dopamine component of the roll is missing. The comeup is the same as a high dose of proper mdma ( intense, uncomfortable, anxious, nauseating, feeling cold, shaky etc ) but with good mdma this stage only lasts about 10-15 min after which you get the dopamine kick and you start rolling and feel awesome.

With the new stuff it is like you stay stuck in that comeup state for 1-2 hours and it never really settles and becomes comfortable or euphoric. The huge dose they put in those pills makes this comeup feeling very very intense and you feel like " oh my god... i'm going to roll sooo hard ! " but you never do. The comeup just goes on and on and on. When it finally settles and you stop feeling like shit you are already coming down.

I have tested the dopamine theory by taking methamphetamine on top of one of these new rolls and like I expected the experience felt much more like a real roll.

So yeah, I am also of the opinion that the more " psychedelic " isomer is favored in that synthesis over the " stimulant " one or something else about it inhibits dopamine from being released like it should. It has always been a consensus that dopamine play an important role in the mdma magic as similar compounds that are devoid of dopamine activity like mbdb or mdai are reported as lacking and even dysphoric.

I also did the comparison as I recently had the chance to get legit saffrole smelling old school mdma as well as the new stuff from another contact and the difference was like night and day. The saffrole stuff felt great, smooth, euphoric, empathetic, social. I had completely forgotten how good mdma is supposed to feel like. I had swore off this drug for a few years now because it just did not feel that good anymore. I thought the problem was in my own chemistry which seemed pretty odd because I never came close to abusing the stuff. The experience just changed overnight around 2010. Tried it again after 3-4 years of abstinence and it still wasnt any better. I had come to the conclusion that I just didnt enjoy rolling anymore because I'm too old for this shit. I was wrong and it turns out it's the drug that changed and not my brain.

I also noticed like most people that my pupils hardly dilate with the new material. Again, I thought it was my personal chemistry that changed because I remembered having HUGE pupils when the rolls were good before 2010. In fact, when I took the good stuff a month ago my pupils dilated once again. I also get no eye wiggles with the new synth which is one of the effects I always had very strongly and consistently.

I think we are starting to have more than enough anecdotal reports describing the exact same experience to keep dismissing it as being nostalgia, tolerance and expectations playing with our heads. I also talked with a younger coworker that started using mdma in the last few years and he keeps telling me how he has difficult comedowns immediately after the experience from as little as one 100 mg cap. This is not normal, especially with that low of a dose. You never get a comedown immediately after or even the day after with good mdma. In fact, you feel great and in a good mood the day after and when you do get a comedown it is because you took a very large amount and it comes 2-3 days later.

Hope we get to the bottom of this somehow. Interesting discussion to say the least.

Id say this thought right here could hold some merit. I feel the same. My eyes dont fully dilate on most current pure mdma thats tested, however they will still wiggle sometimes.

 

[indigoaura]

Quick anecdote to further illustrate just how lacking the new product can be.

A few years ago, I waited in line all day to make it to the front of the crowd for my favorite band's performance. Should have been a completely epic situation. I was on the second row. I took 100 mg and then another 100 mg of this new meh-DMA. There was a guy in front of me who was being super annoying. He was yelling/talking over the show etc. I'm on 200 mg of this stuff but I am angry, agitated, frustrated and getting confrontational with this guy. I actually ended up leaving the second row spot that I waited in line 8 hours to get because I was so frustrated.

Tell me, if this was true MDMA, do you think that would have happened? Because, in a true rolling situation I think I would have felt empathetic to that guy's excitement and so overwhelmed by the music and the band that it would not have even mattered. I certainly would not have been walking away totally pissed off and agitated. But, time and again that is the kind of experience I have had with this stuff.

Still, what we need in order to progress this beyond a conversation is a reputable lab that will use Raman spectroscopy instead of the standard GCMS. We need somewhere that we could all send samples in to and compare results. I currently do not have any access to decent MDMA, but I have multiple samples of meh-DMA to be analyzed.

 

[F.U.B.A.R.]

Quick anecdote to further illustrate just how lacking the new product can be.

A few years ago, I waited in line all day to make it to the front of the crowd for my favorite band's performance. Should have been a completely epic situation. I was on the second row. I took 100 mg and then another 100 mg of this new meh-DMA. There was a guy in front of me who was being super annoying. He was yelling/talking over the show etc. I'm on 200 mg of this stuff but I am angry, agitated, frustrated and getting confrontational with this guy. I actually ended up leaving the second row spot that I waited in line 8 hours to get because I was so frustrated.

Tell me, if this was true MDMA, do you think that would have happened? Because, in a true rolling situation I think I would have felt empathetic to that guy's excitement and so overwhelmed by the music and the band that it would not have even mattered. I certainly would not have been walking away totally pissed off and agitated. But, time and again that is the kind of experience I have had with this stuff.

Still, what we need in order to progress this beyond a conversation is a reputable lab that will use Raman spectroscopy instead of the standard GCMS. We need somewhere that we could all send samples in to and compare results. I currently do not have any access to decent MDMA, but I have multiple samples of meh-DMA to be analyzed.

When ecstasy first became common in the UK in the late 80s, it made a huge impact on curbing the football violence which had become prevalent over the previous couple of decades

Instead of getting drunk and beating the shit out of each other before, during and after each match, rival fans were dropping pills and hugging each other.

The police tolerated it because it gave them a much easier life.

This would definitely not happen with the stuff that is commonly available today.


I'm not into football (soccer) myself, but I can imagine the vibe from hundreds of people off their tits watching a match would be awesome.

 

[G_Chem]

From late 2000?s right when the drought hit, until 2013 or so there was a local producer known nation wide (if not worldwide at that time) for their product.

Where these MDMA pills were being produced is a city known for violence and corruption. I remember watching Drugs Inc where they actually interviewed a black dude from the south side on ecstasy and these guys were actually taking these pills.

During the segment these guys then sit around making music, sharing laughs, but most importantly discussing the troubles of their community and viewing these issues with a newfound sense of empathy. The conversations they had really struck a chord with me and peace in the ghetto seemed much more possible at that moment than ever before.

True MDMA has the ability to bring together all walks of life, no matter our past differences or indiscretions.

That?s something I feel is missing in today?s MDMA scene and I can?t tell if it?s the drug or something else. I know I feel I stand out when I roll, it?s rare to find others on the same plane as me when I dose some MDXX.

I miss those days where someone you just met would embarrassingly tell you about their life story and it not seem weird. Or people dancing like they just don?t give a fuck.

Maybe I?m just getting old looking and less rolling kids wanna come chat shit.. Idk..

-GC

 

[wereallmadhere]

Id say this thought right here could hold some merit. I feel the same. My eyes dont fully dilate on most current pure mdma thats tested, however they will still wiggle sometimes.

My eyes dilate just fine, about same compared to mushrooms or lsd. I mean just go on the mdma sub reddit people are posting thier eyes about every day lol. Now my experience with darknet mdma has been lesser than the first material I obtained IRL, but I am not convinced the material is the problem. The roll had pretty much all aspects of what I expect from a good roll, other than i wasnt bowled over with euforia. The reason i think this was neccessarily a problem with the mdma, is I started that night with 2.5 grams of mushrooms which are just as euforic , if not more, in my experience as mdma.. But it wasnt there that night. But everything else seemed to be there in spades. Luckily I still have some of my original material, which is the first mdma i ever rolled with, and have rolled less than 10 times. Will be very interesting to compare, as I only used mdma for the first time last year and was truly magical. No doubt a classic mdma experience from all accounts I have read. If my old original material returns some of the magic some of my skeptism of this thread will resede.. lol

 

[Kaden_Nite]

There is still plenty of quality MDMA around, being enjoyed by vast amounts of people, I guess it's just not available to everyone who wants it (or they just can't enjoy it) hence this thread.

In the age of accessible testing facilities, expansive online databases, product reviews, endless forensic testing and worldwide consumption, there is no chance that a product masquerading as MDMA is able to be passed off in such a scientifically deceptive and diabolically massive scale as this thread's title and some of the posters are suggesting.

There are fluctuations in the purity and contents of batches and there are other drugs being passed off as MDMA at the point of sale. Such is true for every street drug.



But please, enough with the "today's MDMA" bullshit. It is a painfully incorrect and baseless generalisation to assume that the modern stuff is flawed in a way that yours was not, or that the current generation aren't enjoying that MDMA as much as you were enjoying yours, back before the weight of the world crushed your spirit.

The majority of MDMA I've had has been most satisfactory, some of those nights were among the most beautiful of my life. It would piss me right off to have some relic of the rave days discount the legitimacy of my experiences just because of the year that they happened.

That said, I've also had a few batches which gave a drawn out, but less eventful peak and one batch which consistently gave the intense come-up, sudden drop off that FUBAR speaks of. All tested as MDMA only. I would be interested in discussing what factors; chemical, pharmacological and circumstantial, caused such differences. I'm not into dismissing or romanticising certain batches based on the era though, there seems to be a lot of that.

The testing facilities have really been dragged through the dirt in this thread too. That's not cool. Energy Control sent a detailed and thought-out email explaining their position. This was met with instant discourtesy and a berating list of all the things they haven't done right.

There have been a number of posts I wanted to quote but I think that's enough for now.

Good day.

 

[psy997]

There is still plenty of quality MDMA around, being enjoyed by vast amounts of people, I guess it's just not available to everyone who wants it (or they just can't enjoy it) hence this thread.

Logical fallacy assuming that since there is still plenty of quality MDMA, that there is not MDMA that has the effects discussed here, or that it is in fact widespread.

In the age of accessible testing facilities, expansive online databases, product reviews, endless forensic testing and worldwide consumption, there is no chance that a product masquerading as MDMA is able to be passed off in such a scientifically deceptive and diabolically massive scale as this thread's title and some of the posters are suggesting.

You are making a few large assumptions here that have no place being masqueraded as fact.

There are fluctuations in the purity and contents of batches and there are other drugs being passed off as MDMA at the point of sale. Such is true for every street drug.

Yes and, these factors are not enough to be the cause of the effects noted here. RE: other drugs being passed off as MDMA, we have already found - multiple times - that product can test as MDMA both with test kits and at EC and be subpar to the point of being a totally different experience.

But please, enough with the "today's MDMA" bullshit. It is a painfully incorrect and baseless generalisation to assume that the modern stuff is flawed in a way that yours was not, or that the current generation aren't enjoying that MDMA as much as you were enjoying yours, back before the weight of the world crushed your spirit.

Multiple logical fallacies here, you really do give yourself to criticism too easily Kaden . One, it's a hell of a strawman you've created with your "Today's MDMA...back before the eight of the world crushed your spirit" comment (for reference, I started doing MDMA back in 2014 and have experienced the same shift). Two, no-one is making a generalization here except for you.

The majority of MDMA I've had has been most satisfactory, some of those nights were among the most beautiful of my life.

Great, you're lucky. This means nothing.

It would piss me right off to have some relic of the rave days discount the legitimacy of my experiences just because of the year that they happened.

Again, you betray your own assumptive tendency, as well as emotional appeal to legitimacy. No-one here is discounting other's experiences, nor the fact that proper MDMA still exists.

That said, I've also had a few batches which gave a drawn out, but less eventful peak and one batch which consistently gave the intense come-up, sudden drop off that FUBAR speaks of. All tested as MDMA only. I would be interested in discussing what factors; chemical, pharmacological and circumstantial, caused such differences. I'm not into dismissing or romanticising certain batches based on the era though, there seems to be a lot of that.

It's funny, because that's exactly what we're doing here and yet, you can't seem to stop yourself from shitting on the entire discussion with appeals to both emotion and reason as to how we're all being silly.

Furthermore, ample evidence eg. documented synthesis changes have been provided to explain the various "eras" of MDMA and yet, you still accuse of romanticizing batches as if there is no logical reason for doing so. Silly Kaden.

The testing facilities have really been dragged through the dirt in this thread too. That's not cool. Energy Control sent a detailed and thought-out email explaining their position. This was met with instant discourtesy and a berating list of all the things they haven't done right.

I would disagree with what you call "instant discourtesy" and "berating". If the discussion that's followed regarding EC seems that way to you, I have more understanding as to why you seem unable to engage in a reasonable conversation about an ambiguous, complex, and multi-faceted topic.

There have been a number of posts I wanted to quote but I think that's enough for now.

Sometimes, all you need is one

 

[indigoaura]

The majority of MDMA I've had has been most satisfactory, some of those nights were among the most beautiful of my life. It would piss me right off to have some relic of the rave days discount the legitimacy of my experiences just because of the year that they happened.

Nobody is doing that. If that is what you come away with after reading this thread, then there is really very little to say. You are completely, entirely, and totally missing the point. I think Psy997 hit most of it in his post. Good grief.

Let me break it down too...

#1. There is quality MDMA out there, and there is low-quality "MDMA" out there.
#2. Some low-quality "MDMA" looks pure on regent and GCMS testing, but produces a different effect. This has been verified with multiple labs and user reports.
#3. Tolerance does not explain it as there are multiple reports where tolerance is not a factor.
#4. Set/Setting does not explain it as there are reports where a different product produced the correct effect under the same circumstances.
#5. Raman spectroscopy appears more capable of detailed testing compared to GCMS, but no lab currently offers it.
#6. This thread is dedicated to understanding the differences between quality/non-quality batches, what causes those differences, and how we can determine which is which. It has absolutely nothing to do with romanticizing a particular era. If it comes across that way, it is only because we are trying to compare and contrast based on the experiences we have had.

No "relic of the rave days" is trying to discount anyone's experience. To those people out there who are able to get quality MDMA, congratulations. You are very lucky. Not everyone is able to find it. Enjoy it. Just because you are able to find quality MDMA, that does not mean that everyone is. Believe it or not - everyone is not having the exact same experience as you.

 

[Kaden_Nite]

There is still plenty of quality MDMA around, being enjoyed by vast amounts of people, I guess it's just not available to everyone who wants it (or they just can't enjoy it) hence this thread.

Logical fallacy assuming that since there is still plenty of quality MDMA, that there is not MDMA that has the effects discussed here, or that it is in fact widespread.

I didn't assume that. On the contrary:

There are fluctuations in the purity and contents of batches...

I've also had a few batches which gave a drawn out, but less eventful peak and one batch which consistently gave the intense come-up, sudden drop off...

Reports of such lackluster effects are nothing new though. I think 'smacky' was the 1990s slang. There were good and bad batches 20-30 years ago, the same is true now. Based on the product, test results and reports, (both local and online) that I'm seeing and hearing though, I don't think that labelling poor quality MDMA "today's MDMA" is accurate.

In the age of accessible testing facilities, expansive online databases, product reviews, endless forensic testing and worldwide consumption, there is no chance that a product masquerading as MDMA is able to be passed off in such a scientifically deceptive and diabolically massive scale as this thread's title and some of the posters are suggesting.

You are making a few large assumptions here that have no place being masqueraded as fact.

Prove me wrong. I would like it if 'bad MDMA experience' was a secret chemical that could be identified, isolated and therefore banished. I would also like a speed boat and 5 million dollars.

Honestly, I think I've got more chance of the speed boat.

There are fluctuations in the purity and contents of batches and there are other drugs being passed off as MDMA at the point of sale. Such is true for every street drug

Yes and, these factors are not enough to be the cause of the effects noted here. RE: other drugs being passed off as MDMA, we have already found - multiple times - that product can test as MDMA both with test kits and at EC and be subpar to the point of being a totally different experience.

If, by 'these factors' you are referring to impurities; byproduct and leftovers from synthesis, I believe that this can and does influence the experience considerably.

But please, enough with the "today's MDMA" bullshit. It is a painfully incorrect and baseless generalisation to assume that the modern stuff is flawed in a way that yours was not, or that the current generation aren't enjoying that MDMA as much as you were enjoying yours, back before the weight of the world crushed your spirit

Multiple logical fallacies. it's a hell of a strawman you've created

Thankyou.. I spent most of last week putting it together.

no-one is making a generalization here except for you.

Okay. The title of the thread and a number of the answers it has generated sound a lot like generalisations to me. Negatives ones at that. What is wrong with the MDMA available today? - I'll tell you what's wrong. That attitude. Try focusing on what is right with the MDMA available today.

Testing. Online reviews. High purity pills, crystal.

I would be interested in discussing what factors; chemical, pharmacological and circumstantial, caused such differences. I'm not into dismissing or romanticising certain batches based on the era though, there seems to be a lot of that.

It's funny, because that's exactly what we're doing here and yet, you can't seem to stop yourself from shitting on the entire discussion with appeals to both emotion and reason as to how we're all being silly

Well I didn't mean to bring reason in here.

Furthermore, ample evidence eg. documented synthesis changes have been provided to explain the various "eras" of MDMA and and yet, you still accuse of romanticizing batches as if there is no logical reason for doing so

Yes, there a range of synthesis routes. What does all of the evidence and documentation say? Why would one MDMA synthesis cause such a dramatic difference? If not impurities?

Silly Kaden

You don't mean that.

That's rage talk.

The testing facilities have really been dragged through the dirt in this thread too. That's not cool. Energy Control sent a detailed and thought-out email explaining their position. This was met with instant discourtesy and a berating list of all the things they haven't done right.

I would disagree with what you call "instant discourtesy" and "berating". If the discussion that's followed regarding EC seems that way to you, I have more understanding as to why you seem unable to engage in a reasonable conversation about an ambiguous, complex, and multi-faceted topic.

Ambiguous, complex and multi-faceted. I'm choking on the smug of that statement.

This isn't over.

 

[Brnoxoxo]

Let's say that someone finds a lab that is capable of and willing to do complete analysis of MDMA samples (Raman spectroscopy?). What's next? Is there anyone who can actually design a study that checks if the hypothesis is correct (SympatheticMD said something like this maybe)? Obviously 1 sample of "good" MDMA and 1 sample of mehDMA is not enough to prove anything. It will require more samples to get some actual statistical evidence about difference between these 2 "same" products.

 

[indigoaura]

Brnoxoxo, there are a lot of people who have samples to submit. If we had a centralized testing location, everyone could send their samples in. I thought Energy Control would be a good place, but they are not providing the detail that we really need. That is not intended to dis Energy Control, but it is just a fact.

If I was designing a research study, I would want to see both GCMS and Raman testing on each sample. That way, it could be determined if adulterants were getting by GCMS but showing up on Raman. It would also be beneficial to determine a list of qualities that MDMA should posses, and allow each person submitting a sample to rate those qualities on a scale of 1-10. That way, the user experience would be quantifiable, and patterns could be identified between samples and user experience.

 

[babooon87]

I didn't assume that. On the contrary:



Reports of such lackluster effects are nothing new though. I think 'smacky' was the 1990s slang. There were good and bad batches 20-30 years ago, the same is true now. Based on the product, test results and reports, (both local and online) that I'm seeing and hearing though, I don't think that labelling poor quality MDMA "today's MDMA" is accurate.



Prove me wrong. I would like it if 'bad MDMA experience' was a secret chemical that could be identified, isolated and therefore banished. I would also like a speed boat and 5 million dollars.

Honestly, I think I've got more chance of the speed boat.



If, by 'these factors' you are referring to impurities; byproduct and leftovers from synthesis, I believe that this can and does influence the experience considerably.



Thankyou.. I spent most of last week putting it together.

Okay. The title of the thread and a number of the answers it has generated sound a lot like generalisations to me. Negatives ones at that. What is wrong with the MDMA available today? - I'll tell you what's wrong. That attitude. Try focusing on what is right with the MDMA available today.

Testing. Online reviews. High purity pills, crystal.



Well I didn't mean to bring reason in here.



Yes, there a range of synthesis routes. What does all of the evidence and documentation say? Why would one MDMA synthesis cause such a dramatic difference? If not impurities?



You don't mean that.

That's rage talk.




Ambiguous, complex and multi-faceted. I'm choking on the smug of that statement.

This isn't over.

Of course there has always been good or bad product. The difference is that 10 years ago bad stuff would test as low dose, another drug entirely or md + a dirtier drug. Now the bad stuff tests as mdma only and people fin it lacking at double the normal dosage. It's this discrepency between lab results and experience people are having that we are trying to understand. I know the good stuff is still around plenty, hell in my area there is probably a lot more of the good stuff than the bad (I woulnd't know as mdma is not a drug I really seek out much these days) but still, I am, like many others very curious/fascinated by what could be the reason for this.

But even more than what people feel ( euphoria, empathy, whatever ) that is very subjective and dependent on many variables what boggles me the most is the physiological effects that don't lie. Pupils that don't dilate is not normal at all. I remember some people that were completely burnt out from abuse with huge tolerances always had the insect eyes even If they were feeling almost nothing from the roll.

 

[ThreePointCircle]

Is renting a raman spectrometer a practical thing to do for an individual?

 

[indigoaura]

I have been trying to figure that out too, ThreePointCircle. Hard to find any prices or clear info.

 

[Hilopsilo]

Even if you did find a way to get one, you'd need to find someone who knows how to use it properly AND be able to look for what we're looking for. I've had my stuff tested with an FTIR spectrometer and that shit was complicated, its not like it spits out a list of everything it finds, you have to interpret the results and to my understanding its not always conclusive

God damn guys that was a big ol bickering. I think we all largely agree here... SOMETHING is wrong with SOME of the MDMA. How much is some? Why does it matter? Everyones got different connections and its a highly controlled substance, you're never going to be 100% sure of where it comes from or if one source is really reliable, tons of second hand info, etc... Our sample size is so incredibly small that I don't think we could accurately get an idea of who's got what around the world, and who knows what goes on behind the scenes of the criminal world of producing it and distributing it. Its all highly secretive, the only centralization whatsoever is the darknet and i think thats less utilized than the internet likes to think.

Just because you haven't had the crumby stuff doesn't mean it doesn't exist, and the opposite is true that just because you haven't had a good roll since 90's doesn't mean its all gone to shit.

Just from my friend that gets a lot of different stuff, its a new batch all the time. During the summer when its "festival season" and its in high demand it might be a new batch/"type" every other week. By the time you've tried the stuff and decide its the goods, its already all gone and they've got new stuff. It varies from that dripping wet black gooey stuff to the pristine clear crystal magic stuff, its just luck of the draw what they have at the time.