What is wrong with the MDMA available today?

[indigoaura]

I am noticing that you can buy TLC plates with fluorescent indicators. Would that make the separation more visible?

 

[ThreePointCircle]

Fluorescent as in uv 254nm?

 

[indigoaura]

For UV detection of colorless substances, our classical silica TLC plates are available with two types of inorganic fluorescent indicators: green fluorescing F254, or blue fluorescing, acid-stable F254s. Both indicators fluoresce in UV light at an excitation wavelength of 254 nm. Samples which absorb shortwave UV at 254 nm are detected due to fluorescence quenching. We also offer special high-fluorescence LuxPlates®, which contain a larger amount of fluorescent indicator for more enhanced detection.

From: https://www.emdmillipore.com/US/en/...al-silica-plates/7gmb.qB.mfAAAAFAVOtkiQpx,nav

 

[Satans666kush]

Most likely what happend was it wasn't mdma but something very similar like methylone or some RC chemicals idk my shit has always been clean besides once I got butylone or however you spell it

 

[Satans666kush]

If a Marquis test showed dark purple to black for my MDMA crystal, does that mean there is definitely not any or at least not a lethal amount of PMA/PMMA in my MDMA?

Absolutely not!!!

 

[draculic acid69]

@ThreePointCircle I am looking now. Are you talking about the spot at the very top of the liquid? I definitely see it. But, I have no experience with TLC. Hopefully someone else will chime in.

It makes sense to me that the contaminant, if it exists, would react similarly to MDMA with reagent tests.

Update: Today I sent two Meh samples for GCMS analysis. Hoping to receive the full GCMS results from both. Fingers crossed that this yields some good information.

Did you make them aware of the problems of past gcms testing and what your trying to achieve?

 

[indigoaura]

Did you make them aware of the problems of past gcms testing and what your trying to achieve?

Yes, 100%. They are very aware of the situation.

 

[draculic acid69]

Yes, 100%. They are very aware of the situation.

Hopefully it yeilds results

 

[mars2025]

how your theory took into account the new users who found meh to be meh and magic to be magic, and you never replied.

Bypassing the commonly known factors of diet, fatty foods, stress, fatigue, undisclosed meds (see erowid for all of the above), and people for whom MDMA just doesn't work due to underlying health conditions (but who might tell a white lie and say that "magic" worked for them), you're left with:

1. False negative. First time user took your MDMA and indeed experienced the standard effects but either didn't fully recognize them or chose not to discuss them with you. And you assumed MDMA didn't work because that person did not look like the 90s raver you remember. To be able to accurately bioassay MDMA material in others, check for example Ann Shulgin's questionnaire on Erowid so you know the standard spectrum of MDMA effects.

It can be tricky. Consider some of Shulgin's reports in PiHKAL:

"MDMA intrigued me because everyone I asked, who had used it, answered the question, 'What's it like?' in the same way: 'I don't know.' 'What happened?' 'Nothing.' And now I understand those answers. I too think nothing happened... "

Same source:
"The feeling of insufficient energy and lack of spark that I'd felt before had become something quite strong, and might be characterized as a firm feeling of negativity about everything that had to be done and everything I had been looking forward to. So I set about my several tasks with no pleasure or enjoyment and I hummed a little tune to myself during these activities which had words that went: 'I shouldn't have done that, oh yes, I shouldn't have done that, oh no, I shouldn't have done that; it was a mistake.' Then I would start over again from the beginning. I was stuck in a gray space for quite a while, and there was nothing to do but keep doing what I had to do. After about 6 hours, I could see the whole mental state disintegrating and my pleasant feelings were coming back. But so was my plain, ornery tiredness.
(https://erowid.org/library/books_online/pihkal/pihkal109.shtml)

2. You probably had poor quality material, meaning low purity or degraded due to improper storage. If your material is 50% MDMA and 50% unreacted precursor or other synthesis byproducts, it won't work. It's common sense, and Erowid faqs from the 90s say so too. You can't take 2x more and make up for poor quality with greater quantity. If that material is pressed into a pill, it won't become better either. Acetone wash won't fix it after the fact. Acetone wash is mentioned as a final step in PiHKAL, but from my limited understanding it's insufficient to achieve a pure product. Proper care needs to be taken during the actual synthesis steps; there are obviously tricks of the trade here.

This problem occurs today just as it did 20 years ago. It is also not specific to synthesis route or to MDMA. Yes, there may have been a "lucky" reaction whose precursors or byproducts were themselves psychoactive MDxx, but that's not MDMA anymore. To prove that something is wrong with "today's MDMA," you really need to prove that something is wrong with MDMA made by Dutch megalabs, as that's the majority of the world's supply.

Now, when you started shopping more carefully, you reported product that's pretty good, albeit not as good as what you remember for 2000-2005. This remaining difference can probably be due to selective memory / health / mental state / cumulative lifetime use / familiarity / age. For example, the lovey feeling relies on oxytocin, which peaks during childbirth and the period after childbirth. So it's highest in a newborn child, declines as you grow out of your teens and into your 20s, then spikes again if/when you have children and declines thereafter. (The parenthood peak is obviously much stronger for women.)

It is also still possible that some of the best pills you remember from 2000-2005 also had MDA in them or another MDxx. Why didn't the lab pick that up? Two possibilities. You believe that the labs in 2020 are missing or not reporting on some impurities in your sample. Then why do you exclude the possibility that the same lab in 2004 reported MDMA/MDA mix as "MDMA only." Remember, the US government does not want edata to serve as "quality control" for drug labs, only harm reduction. So maybe they did not consistently report MDA/MDMA mixes back in 2005. True, some pills do show up as MDA/MDMA. "Anecdotally," many users report that MDA or MDMA / MDA is better than pure MDA for energy, touch and so on (also more neurotoxic and harsher comedowns). Among others, Rainey just said MDA/MDMA was closest to what he/she remembers of the old presses.

Your own reports from 2000-2005 show some pills as being subjectively better than others; yet nearly all those pills tested as MDMA and nothing else. Which leaves you with what explanations?
Pills were the same, you just happened to have a better roll.
Better pill contained better (higher purity) MDMA
Better pill contained mostly MDMA and a fair bit of MDA. The latter went unreported.

Logically speaking, all of this seems to undermine the claim that something is wrong with today's MDMA.

To answer your other question, I read everything on this thread, including the papers you posted. I simply reached different conclusions than you did. So when you say "read the papers," I can't respond without knowing which papers you have in mind. When you confidently say, it's "been addressed," you are implying some kind of progress of knowledge that really isn't on firm ground

And all the other stuff I posted, like the cost of doing byproduct analysis, was in response to other people's questions.

 

[user666]

Is the point to gather biological data on mdma or the difference between meh and magic?

After reading Mars2025 post, do you see the point of documenting the objective physiological differences between Meh and Magic ?

Same source:
"The feeling of insufficient energy and lack of spark that I'd felt before had become something quite strong, and might be characterized as a firm feeling of negativity about everything that had to be done and everything I had been looking forward to. So I set about my several tasks with no pleasure or enjoyment and I hummed a little tune to myself during these activities which had words that went: 'I shouldn't have done that, oh yes, I shouldn't have done that, oh no, I shouldn't have done that; it was a mistake.' Then I would start over again from the beginning. I was stuck in a gray space for quite a while, and there was nothing to do but keep doing what I had to do. After about 6 hours, I could see the whole mental state disintegrating and my pleasant feelings were coming back. But so was my plain, ornery tiredness.
(https://erowid.org/library/books_online/pihkal/pihkal109.shtml)

That was with a lower dose. The same source writes something completely different after taking 120mg of racemic MDMA ...and he was not a skinny virgin user, mind you:

"I feel absolutely clean inside, and there is nothing but pure euphoria. I have never felt so great, or believed this to be possible. The cleanliness, clarity, and marvelous feeling of solid inner strength continued throughout the rest of the day, and evening, and through the next day. I am overcome by the profundity of the experience, and how much more powerful it was than previous experiences, for no apparent reason, other than a continually improving state of being. All the next day I felt like 'a citizen of the universe' rather than a citizen of the planet, completely disconnecting time and flowing easily from one activity to the next.

As the material came on I felt that I was being enveloped, and my attention had to be directed to it. I became quite fearful, and my face felt cold and ashen. I felt that I wanted to go back, but I knew there was no turning back. Then the fear started to leave me, and I could try taking little baby steps, like taking first steps after being reborn. The woodpile is so beautiful, about all the joy and beauty that I can stand. I am afraid to turn around and face the mountains, for fear they will overpower me. But I did look, and I am astounded. Everyone must get to experience a profound state like this. I feel totally peaceful. I have lived all my life to get here, and I feel I have come home. I am complete."
https://erowid.org/library/books_online/pihkal/pihkal109.shtml)

This problem occurs today just as it did 20 years ago.

No, the problem is more ubiquitous nowadays when you consider the objective physiological reactions of young virgin users - not old tired polydrug users.

It is also not specific to synthesis route or to MDMA.

How can you be so sure?

Yes, there may have been a "lucky" reaction whose precursors or byproducts were themselves psychoactive MDxx, but that's not MDMA anymore.

If the contaminants are a minority like @ThreePointCircle has just detected and @indigoaura's lab result have reported, then it would be more correct to state that it is not pure MDMA anymore.

To prove that something is wrong with "today's MDMA," you really need to prove that something is wrong with MDMA made by Dutch megalabs, as that's the majority of the world's supply.

That's what this thread is about.

 

[ThreePointCircle]

From: https://www.emdmillipore.com/US/en/...al-silica-plates/7gmb.qB.mfAAAAFAVOtkiQpx,nav

Ah ok, those are the standard ones. Basically they include a substance to fluoresce under uv 254nm. I'm not an expert on the different options, but I'm guessing their green one would be better for digital cameras as they normal have more pixels given over to green than blue or red.

I've been using glass backed plates. I presume aluminium would be fine but I haven't tried. I want to try 2D TLC but I need to get some bigger square plates to do that.

 

[user666]

I'm not an expert on the different options, but I'm guessing their green one would be better for digital cameras as they normal have more pixels given over to green than blue or red.

That's true about the green ones, but the blue ones are acid-stable. Do you plan to use acids in your solvent system? Does your sample contain any acids ? ...who knows.
Anyway, if you plan to only use stains (e.g. iodine vapors, K permanganate, etc...) or field reagents to visualize them, then you can get plain plates without the fluorescent indicators and you will not need a UV light.

On the other hand, analytes reacted with these reagents are destroyed and unsuitable for scraping off and sending to a lab for proper id.

 

[ThreePointCircle]

That's true about the green ones, but the blue ones are acid-stable.

Interesting, I hadn't clocked that that is a thing. I've been using the normal F254 Merck plates (1.15341) not the acid-stable F254S. Maybe I should try to get some of the acid-stable ones but looking through the catalogue, there seems to be a lot fewer options on that.

 

[user666]

As long as you are using an alkaline solvent system (e.g. with ammonia) you will not have acidic conditions.
But if you switch to a neutral solvent e.g. acetonitrile, and your sample is acidic, then maybe...

A Ph indicator, e.g. Litmus paper, would indicate acidic conditions, if you had them.

 

[indigoaura]

@mars2025

It would help me to understand how old you are and your length of history with MDMA/psychedelics. That would help me to better understand where you are coming from with your posts.

1. There are observable phenomenon such as mydriasis which should occur with MDMA use. It has nothing to do with assumption. It has to do with lack of observable physical characteristics of taking the drug.

I own Pikhal and have read the sections on MDMA. I am familiar with all of the passages you have quoted, and they have been quoted in this thread before. As @user666 already commented on, these were dosage issues. 100 mg of MDMA did not cross the threshold to a peak, but 120 mg of MDMA did. We specifically discussed this earlier in the thread when theorizing that raising the dose of the MehDMA would correct the issue, but it did not.

2. You seem to be stating the same thing we are stating, that something is not right with the purity of the the MDMA, and increasing the dose does not work. Which brings us back to the question of what is wrong with the sample. If the sample is not "pure," then what is wrong with it specifically? Why does one sample that is "MDMA" according to the lab feel different from another sample that is "MDMA" according to the lab? There has to be a reason for it, especially when multiple users are providing the same feedback on the same sample. Obviously, something is "off" with it. What is it?

You said, "This problem occurs today just as it did 20 years ago," but that is not the case. These kinds of widespread, "sub-par" reports were not circulating 20 years ago, at least not in my social circles. If a pill was "bad," you sent it to a lab and it was actually DXM or something that was not MDMA at all. For the most part, pills were either MDMA and good, or not MDMA and bad. I only recall ONE time that I had a pill that was MDMA and had sub-par effects. Were you rolling 20 years ago and involved in the scene at that time?

Oxytocin is not the primary cause of the effects of MDMA, which has already been discussed at length in this thread.

"Users said the drug made them feel euphoric, more verbal, and closer to other individuals. The typical dosage range of MDMA for recreational use varies from 50 to 150 mg, but the amount per tablet in different batches of tablets may vary 70-fold or more, from almost 0 to well over 100 mg. The ability of MDMA to increase the concentration of serotonin, dopamine, and norepinephrine in the synapse (Johnson et al., 1986; Yamamoto and Spanos, 1988; Fitzgerald and Reid, 1990; Gough et al., 1991; Rothman et al., 2001) probably underlies its production of improved mood and of sensory alterations" (Pifl 346).

Yes, it is possible that labs were not picking up on active ingredients before. That is one of our theories, and has been stated in our proposed thesis statements earlier in the thread. One of the possibilities is that old MDMA contained active ingredients that were not being detected by the lab. We have discussed the Leuckart synth in relation to this theory. As for your MDA comments, I used MDA and have deliberately combined MDA/MDMA and am familiar with those effects and the combo effects, and it is not what the MDMA only pills felt like. Also, labs were deliberately testing for MDA/MDE/MDMA and reporting those differences. MDA was not an unknown or untested compound.

Yes, my own old reports from 2000-2005 include variations in strength/quality of roll. However, it all still felt like MDMA and that is the point. Sometimes, you needed a 2nd pill to really get where you needed to go, but you still got there. Sometimes the effects were shorter or longer, but you still got there. Sometimes there were slight variations in the tone of the experience, but you still got there. I am VERY familiar with the variations in MDMA experiences that occur due to diet, fasting, mood, set, setting, etc. There is a range of effects, absolutely. However, there is a specific experience that IS the MDMA experience that is completely lacking from MehDMA. MehDMA exists OUTSIDE of the range of typical MDMA experiences. It lacks the fundamental basics of an MDMA experience. Have you personally encountered this in any of the MDMA you have consumed? If not, then you really do not understand what the posters in this thread are describing.

I am not sure what your vested interest is here. You came onto the thread, pushing hard for Q-Dance pills. You even sent me private messages encouraging me to buy Q-Dance pills. I cannot help but wonder what your motivation is. I always find it a bit odd when a new user to Bluelight comes to this thread to argue heavily for the quality of one specific brand of pill.

If you disagree with the purpose of this thread, the research we are doing, and the direction it is going in, then you do not have to feel obligated to post here. There are many threads on Bluelight.

I am personally going to continue to research for physical evidence of what is occurring, through more advanced testing/GCMS data, TLC Plates etc. If there are no contaminants present, then no contaminants will be found. Based on my interpretation of the published reports & anecdotal reports, I think it is plausible that an active contaminant is going undetected. If I am wrong, then I am wrong and nothing will be found.

As I said before, I did find your hybrid theory to be quite interesting. There are genetic variations that could make one sub-population more sensitive to a contaminant than another sub-population, which is not something that we have discussed in detail here. Overall, reports have had multiple users to one batch of MDMA experiencing the same effects. If there had been a lot of variation in how people reacted to the same batch, it would have seemed more like an issue with the individual user rather than the batch.

 

[ThreePointCircle]

I am not sure what your vested interest is here. You came onto the thread, pushing hard for Q-Dance pills. You even sent me private messages encouraging me to buy Q-Dance pills. I cannot help but wonder what your motivation is. I always find it a bit odd when a new user to Bluelight comes to this thread to argue heavily for the quality of one specific brand of pill.

Haha. Yeah, not the first time something like that has happened via this thread. Makes a bit more sense now.

 

[user666]

There are genetic variations that could make one sub-population more sensitive to a contaminant than another sub-population, which is not something that we have discussed in detail here.

That is true, but that variation is small.
There are variations even for pure MDMA, e.g. variation of gluconeogenesis, which is smaller than variation of mydriasis, which is smaller than variation of male ED and finally, which is smaller than variation of trismus.
Taken to the extreme, there are even mutants out there that cannot metabolize MDMA and will be killed by 120mg of it. ...but the odds of that happening are smaller than winning the lottery.

Qualitatively we all have different organisms, but the quantitative differences are negligible,

 

[user666]

Haha. Yeah, not the first time something like that has happened via this thread. Makes a bit more sense now.

Then I have a piece of advice for him. Find out why the pills of his competition are Meh, publish the difference illustrating it with two different spectrograms and enjoy the increased sales.
If he does that, I will be the 1st one to take a drive to Amsterdam and buy 100g of these superior Q-dance pills. I am so sick of Meh and I have only 200mg of magic left.

 

[ThreePointCircle]

Then I have a piece of advice for him. Find out why the pills of his competition are Meh, publish the difference illustrating it with two different spectrograms and enjoy the increased sales.
If he does that, I will be the 1st to take a drive to Amsterdam and buy 100g of these superior Q-dance pills.

Excellent!

I should clarify, I wasn't talking about @mars2025 but someone else behaving similarly

 

[user666]

I should clarify, I wasn't talking about @mars2025 but someone else behaving similarly

It doesn't matter who. It is a good marketing advice for any proponent of a certain product.