It is not just
@moonyham who has posted about being with virgin users who had little to no effect. I have seen that as well. Another husband and wife posted the same thing in the early iteration of the thread, as well as others.
Well then why didn't you say so sooner? Someone call the FDA and let them know.
When long time users post, we are told that we have tolerance; we have lost the magic.
I don't tell you this; this is just a possibility that some people bring up.
I think the more likely candidate is adulteration – something you had previously ruled out based on bad intel from IEC.
When a long time user posts who has observed a MDMA naïve subject/virgin user also have little to no effect, that should resolve the tolerance argument.
Just that one instance alone? I know what you're driving at, but that's not how things are proven scientifically.
A virgin user should be able to experience the full effects of the drug. There are not that many people out there who are immune to the effects of MDMA from a genetic standpoint.
I'm not dismissing anecdotal evidence. I'm saying its value is limited. Anyone who wants to debate that and claim that anecdotes have limitless value to scientific discovery is clearly either delusional or a troll. I'm not disputing that the phenomenon occurs; I've never disputed that. All I've done is rebutted ideas that have obvious logic flaws. To be clear,
@F.U.B.A.R., I am not denying the existence of the phenomenon. People are acting like they have deduced what's going on through sheer discussion, logic, confirmation bias and groupthink, and motherfuck real science. I mean it's whatever, I'm just trying to get people to wake up to all the possibilities and understand why it's impossible to draw meaningful conclusions right now with respect to scientific discovery. I'd like to see a world where less misinformation is so widely disseminated, but I guess that's why propaganda is so effective.
Sorry if everyone reads my tone wrong and thinks I'm a condescending know-it-all prick.
@moonyham seems particularly upset and eager to throw something personally insulting at me, which is a shame. Yeah bro, I'm a shill for the Chinese, you fuckin' genius, you. What an acerbic wit on you, buddy boy. Some real zingers you were throwing at me there. Gotta watch this one. Feisty
Observational studies are valid in the field of psychology. Case studies are valid in the field of psychology. Not everything is a double blind experiment, although that is certainly the gold standard. Case studies and observational studies pave the way for double blind experiments to occur later.
At what point though does a study reach a point of anecdotal saturation? Sure, keep data coming in, why not? But at some point we will have exhausted the limit of what this can provide and we need to develop real tests with real industry-standard tools to gain any new insights. If I sound a little cheesed off, it's because I've been frustrated by the global drug prohibition policies and their hampering effect on research for fucking
years now, and it gets tedious trying to explain what the scientific method is and how it works in this context and why it's a remarkably unhelpful act of hubris to assume one can just rely on their own nervous system 100% in identifying various mind-altering drugs to any fine delineating degree.
You can't just dismiss case studies and observational studies as being irrelevant. Any psychology textbook or research methodology textbook will confirm the necessity of these types of early observations. How do you think researchers develop hypotheses for more advanced studies? Usually, on the shoulders of case studies and observational data.
When the f… ? Why do I have to keep explaining this?
@indigoaura you of all people on this thread know that I know my shit. You know I'm not outright dismissing anecdotal evidence, and especially not case studies. That's putting words in my mouth I never said. FFS, could everyone please stop and just think about what I'm saying and quit being so defensive?
All I'm saying is we still don't know what's causing the MehDMA phenomenon.
I have tried to gather as much objective data as possible by sending samples to labs, finding published and peer reviewed research that backs up the interfering qualities of contaminants, etc.
I have literally spent thousands of dollars on lab testing, and I am not even kidding about that.
Oh I know, and I salute you for that and I'm grateful to have made some discoveries through your efforts, not the least of which is the uncharming, near-useless info factory quasi-con artistry that is International Energy Control, Spain. (Consumer beware).
But at this point, I think the lab testing is a fucking joke.
Yeah and that's a real shame, bc it feels like they're taking advantage of people who are trying to do the right thing and be safe.
Here is a fun story for you - sent a sample to IEC recently. They told me it was 90% MDMA. Not according to a brand new bottle of Simon's reagent though. Simon's did not turn blue, so Simon's clearly indicated MDA. I took it. It was OBVIOUSLY MDA and not MDMA. I had closed and open eyed visuals and other trippy effects that I do not experience on MDMA.
It's like they're just taking people's money and making shit up without consequence… And this misinformation has been behind quite a bit of squabbling on here, because assumption were made based on the strength of this testing falsely leading to the conclusion that the MehDMA sample tests as pure MDMA with no adulterations.
Removing this false conclusion returns us to the possibility that for several years now, various batches have shown up in different locations that appear to be MDMA with heavy contamination from other distantly related phenethylamine compounds thought to be from the research chemical market. It's just my own conjecture here, but this leads me to believe the imposter MDMA is likely a mixture of a serotonergic cathinone/entactogen primarily, plus some MDMA to throw off reagent tests, caffeine /which will catalyze the psychoactive substances, and possibly something like meth here and there. Totally a guess, and most of the other postulated ideas are also viable, from MDDMA/MDTMA contamination (this is an excellent theory, btw,
@indigoaura; whether correct, I was very impressed with your conjecture here) to bath salts.
So, the lab was just straight up wrong. I don't know how we are supposed to have faith in anything we are consuming if the labs can't even be trusted to distinguish between MDA and MDMA.
Yeah, it's frustrating and upsetting. But I think we know what to do now, and what to ask out of any future testing facilities. It's also not impossible to get one's hands on the proper equipment, obtain the standards, and run their own tests. It wouldn't be very cheap though, and it could incur some risks potentially depending on various factors.
@unodelacosa, you make valuable chemistry contributions to the thread, but I really think you should try to be a bit less dismissive of the people reporting observational data. It is probably not your intent, but you come across like you are being dismissive and shutting people down. This thread was started based on observational data, and there are YEARS of history of people sharing observational data here. People have the right to share their observations without being shut down.
Sorry but I'm going to point out bad logic when I see it. It's not a dismissal and I can only sugar-coat my words but so much. I know there are people on here who really fucking hate me and can't stand anything I post. That's fine. I'm not trying to please everyone. But I do seek, and tell, the truth. Sometimes people can't deal with that. But they'll be okay. I just urge people to keep an open mind until the truth is actually revealed and, until then, resist the urge to jump to false conclusions. Or fuck, what do I care? Jump to false conclusions all you want, anyone who thinks they've got the answer to what's behind "MehDMA". Share your conclusions with all the world, too, and don't bother giving a fuck about the truth. Just don't expect me to be onboard. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Selah.