What is wrong with the MDMA available today? - v2

[Negi]

We are specifically discussing MDMA that has been sent to a lab (such as Energy Control or Drugs Data), tested with some form of GCMS or other lab testing, found to be MDMA, but presents with a different effects profile than typical MDMA. We are not discussing un-tested product that could be anything or contain any adulterant.

 

[unodelacosa]

I'm guessing the problem is meth

I seriously doubt it. Have you ever actually used good meth? That shit is fire and would instead make you feel pretty goddamn euphoric, plus make you talkative and overall energized and ready to get into Project Mode. Don't get me wrong, it's got its drawbacks, gotchas, and the potential for abuse isn't to be taken lightly. However, it's a very misunderstood drug, I've found and I've long been an advocate for its responsible use, which I assure you is possible with a little self-discipline and level-headedness.

My guess would be that it's something more like methylone, butylone, or another beta-ketone compound… also possible: high-dose caffeine coupled with low dose MDMA + whatever else is substituted for MDMA by the chemists possibly. And yet still another possibility is that your biochemistry has changed as you've gotten older. This happens to some extent after all, and we all start producing more and more MAO as we age as well. (I realize of course that this is an iteration of the "loss of magic" argument, but the proof against this argument given in the second post to this thread is not adequate enough to rule out placebo effect 100%, IMHO.) Idk, I'm just spitballin', but MDMA is harsh and typically gives me the shittiest hangovers. Then again, it could be that you're absolutely right, but I don't suspect meth mostly based on the experience typically being quite enjoyable even if different from MDMA, and wouldn't become unenjoyable unless you were using it without break for a few days (long enough to get strung out anyways, not just from one oral dose).

I miss the good ole brown shit with the white dust on it.

I don't understand why this is so revered. The Merck manual lists MDMA hydrochloride as being bright white solid crystals, not brown or tan or offwhite, as is listed for MDA.HCl, but bright white. The best MDMA I've ever had was made by yours truly from sassafras oil via p-benzo Wacker oxidation with Palladium II Chloride followed by a Nitromethane/Al/Hg amalgam reductive amination of MDP-2-P to MDMA. The intermediate ketone product was fractionally distilled under vacuum after a careful work-up and crystallization/re-crystallization from sodium metabisulfite, and the final result was also vac distilled for purity, taken up with xylene, dried and dry-gassed followed by two-solvent recrystallization with boiling IPA and anhydrous acetone. The end results were always bright white crystalline powder. I'm not entirely sure if the discoloration is the product of less-than-ideal synthesis conditions or deliberately added precursor sassafras oil to prove the authenticity of the product, but be assured: pure MDMA hydrochloride is not brown.

If it melts into an opaque, blood-red puddle, it's MDMA

I can attest that MDMA will indeed turn this color under enough heat. It also tastes terrible if one tries vaporizing it thusly, and the compound is destroyed before it has any real effect on the user… which is more or less how I discovered the color-changing under heat properties. As a RoA, this is not recommended, and as a field test, it's not terrible accurate either, because…

ONLY pure MDMA melts into a blood-red puddle.

Nope, not true at all. Right off the top of my head, most dissociatives turn red when heated as well, including and especially Ketamine, but also MXE did this as do most substituted arylcyclohexylamines I've experimented with vaporizing. They taste medicinal and gross and become red puddles in an oil burner. I'm quite confident there are other compounds that will do this as well; I seem to recall one of the pyrovalerone drugs going this route, too.

Meth melts clear.

Assuming it's clean, pure methamphetamine hydrochloride. Otherwise it leaves a residue any number of hues but typically brown-ish.

A combination of the 2 could certainly have produced a semi-translucent yellow

What're you basing this on? Clear + red != yellow. I suspect you're just speculating wildly here, no offense, but I can't get onboard with this conjecture. Not that meth hasn't been found in MDMA samples the DEA has reported testing; this does happen. I just don't think it's wise jumping to any conclusions without solid proof. That's how bullshit urban legends get started and it works against the cause of educating the public about drugs in a truthful manner so as to increase harm reduction and hopefully lead to decriminalization one day. But for example, for a long time the rumor was that ecstasy pills were cut with heroin, and this just simply isn't true, which should be obvious given the high price of heroin, the amount needed to produce a decent high via oral consumption and its relative lack of bioavailability, and the street price of said pills. That myth sometimes still persists, and it's irksome as it spreads fear, uncertainty, and doubt. Let's avoid this, please.

 

[unodelacosa]

Do you have any suggestions regarding which solvent to use in a column?

Yeah I have to pretty much second what @RyybsNarcs suggested and I would guess dichloromethane (methylene chloride) would be the right choice or a good starting place. Basing this mostly on https://chemistry.mdma.ch/hiveboard/rhodium/pdf/forensic/mdma.tablets.impurity.profiling.pdf (which btw is quite relevant and a pretty good read overall).

Update from International Energy Control.

They were unable to quantify the 3,4-methylendioxy-N,N dimethylamphetamine because they do not have the standard for it. I asked if it would be possible to donate the standard so quantification of this impurity would be possible. They are looking into that now, and they are going to let me know what the cost would be.

My plan going forward is as follows:
-Donate the standard for 3,4-methylendioxy-N,N dimethylamphetamine to IEC

Can't this be crowdfunded somehow? I'd throw in to spread the cost out if it were made easy enough to do, relatively speaking.

What do you expect the cost to be, ball park?

-Submit additional meh samples

If my hypothesis is correct, then I would expect to see the same/similar impurity in other samples. I hope that if multiple samples with subpar effects contain the same impurity then perhaps I may be more able to gain the attention of a researcher or university.

The attention of a researcher or university to study what exactly? MDDMA effects? What's the pitch for this? Why would research commence and what would its purpose be?

Are you aware of this August 2019, European paper? 1H quantitative NMR and UHPLC-MS analysis of seized MDMA/NPS mixtures and tablets from night-club venues — https://pubs.rsc.org/en/content/articlehtml/2019/ay/c9ay01403a This is notable firstly because 1H quantitative NMR circumvents the need for analytical standards based on what the paper suggests, and secondly because it mentions one of the samples containing MDDMA at 10% concentration with MDMA in one pill. It mentions the adulteration coming from the method of production (nitropropene intermediate + reductive amination route). It seems unlikely 10% MDDMA impurity would have that much effect on the end product, especially if you consider that the longer/heavier the chaining is on the amine, the less potent the molecule becomes (e.g.: MDEA is slightly less potent than MDMA which is slightly less potent than MDA; therefore MDDMA has the most weight attached to the nitrogen and would theoretically be the weakest of the aforementioned 3,4-methylenedioxy compounds; am I really to believe 20mg MDDMA hydrochloride would impact the qualitative effects to such a degree that it renders it all "meh"?).

 

[unodelacosa]

@indigoaura – some more links you may or may not have seen already, but I thought it would be good to mention anyway for the strength of the thread if nothing else:

• Rhodium: A Study of the Precursors, Intermediates and Reaction Byproducts in the Synthesis of MDMA (https://bitnest.netfirms.com/Rhodium/chemistry/mdma.impurity.study.html)
• Rhodium: T. A. Dal Cason's An Evaluation of the Potential for Clandestine Manufacture of 3,4-Methylenedioxyamphetamine (MDA) Analogs and Homologs (https://bitnest.netfirms.com/Rhodium/chemistry/mda.dalcason.html)
  • "The tertiary amine analog, N,N-dimethyl MDA, has also proved ineffective at the 160-mg level but may produce CNS effects at 0.5- to 1-g doses"
  • It seems like N-methyl-N-formyl MDA might be a more likely candidate given the popularity of the Leuckart Reaction…
• Rhodium: And more from Dal Cason – The Characterization of Some 3,4-Methylenedioxyphenylisopropylamine (MDA) Analogs (https://bitnest.netfirms.com/Rhodium/chemistry/mda.analogs.characterization.html)
• PiHKAL Book II Entry #105 MDDM – doesn't seem like it's active at all (https://isomerdesign.com/PiHKAL/read.php?domain=pk&id=105)
• PiHKAL Book II Entry #103 MDBZ – read the extensions where he mentions the difficulty of synthesizing MDDMA from dimethylamine (https://isomerdesign.com/PiHKAL/read.php?domain=pk&id=103#rxa105)
• Isomer Design – this is cool to look at: https://isomerdesign.com/PiHKAL/tableSI.php?domain=pk&table=1#si-1-0-80

In my best conjecture, I think you might be fixating on this one, MDDM possibility a bit too much, but that's just a hunch. I wouldn't shell out grip for that standard if the cost is exorbitant, but otherwise I applaud the effort into investigating this subject for the greater good even if it also scratches a particular intellectual itch you seem to have regarding MDMA impurity. I've had similar experiences trying to get to the bottom of methamphetamine cut, n-isobutylamine, that rotten bastard of a compound. In the end, if you really want it pure, you have to be willing to roll your sleeves up, er down for safety reasons actually, and do some organic chem lab procedures on your own potentially in your own kitchen or garage or whatever… You also have to be diligent about knowing what you're doing fully and understanding all involved chemistry lab techniques, which isn't too difficult for a reasonably educated person adept with their hands.

It was mentioned earlier in the thread to acetone wash your MDMA, but this shouldn't have any effect on any MDDM present (or any related, amine-bearing compound), just to be aware. It would clean other impurities off, and actually a recrystallization from boiling isopropanol can be almost as easily performed with little to no special equipment. And hell, if you're gonna do this preliminary work, you might considering going the whole enchilada and freebasing the compound with a basic solution (NaOH would work) and collecting it in a non-polar solvent, washing that extract with brine, mild sodium carbonate solution, and distilled H₂O, drying it over MgSO₄, and then carefully distilling it under vacuum with a fractionating column and a good bit of plumber's insulation until you pull over a main MDMA fraction, then dissolving that into a dry NP solvent, gassing it with a dry HCl gas generator setup, acetone wash, recrystallize and filter for extra insane-O purity. Those would be theoretically all the steps one could perform short of setting up for chromatography. Is this a shitload of tedious lab work? Depends on who you ask, but overall, yeah it's tedious AF.

 

[indigoaura]

@unodelacosa Thank you for all these links. Wonderful! It will take me awhile to peruse them and add them to post two, but I absolutely will. I have seen a few of them, but most of them seem unfamiliar.

I may be fixating, true. Just trying to follow leads as they arise, however. Maybe none of my other samples will have the same impurity.

I honestly have no idea what it will cost to purchase the standard. I am waiting to hear back from them. While I appreciate the sentiment of Crowdfunding, I do not want to accept money from anyone in this thread. I feel like that opens the door for criticism and doubt regarding my intentions.

I do want to point out that based on my limited understanding of the Pifl paper, some compounds are inactive yet still interfere in the way MDMA interacts with monoamine transporters. So, I do not find the inactivity/low activity of MDDMA to be an indicator that it must not be what we are looking for. We are not necessarily looking for a compound with a lot of notable activity on its own.

Your at home chemistry instructions are like Greek to me. I am willing to do the work, I just need to fully understand what I am doing. Not interested in wasting time/money on me messing up the process.

 

[Zuda]

I seriously doubt it. Have you ever actually used good meth? That shit is fire and would instead make you feel pretty goddamn euphoric, plus make you talkative and overall energized and ready to get into Project Mode. Don't get me wrong, it's got its drawbacks, gotchas, and the potential for abuse isn't to be taken lightly. However, it's a very misunderstood drug, I've found and I've long been an advocate for its responsible use, which I assure you is possible with a little self-discipline and level-headedness.

Bro, I was addicted to meth for years. Misunderstood chemical? Ehh...yeah. OK. I wish you the best of luck with that, because the stuff that got me hooked was perfectly clear...and not that healthy. I pray for you brotha lol

My guess would be that it's something more like methylone, butylone, or another beta-ketone compound… also possible: high-dose caffeine coupled with low dose MDMA + whatever else is substituted for MDMA by the chemists possibly. And yet still another possibility is that your biochemistry has changed as you've gotten older. This happens to some extent after all, and we all start producing more and more MAO as we age as well. (I realize of course that this is an iteration of the "loss of magic" argument, but the proof against this argument given in the second post to this thread is not adequate enough to rule out placebo effect 100%, IMHO.) Idk, I'm just spitballin', but MDMA is harsh and typically gives me the shittiest hangovers. Then again, it could be that you're absolutely right, but I don't suspect meth mostly based on the experience typically being quite enjoyable even if different from MDMA, and wouldn't become unenjoyable unless you were using it without break for a few days (long enough to get strung out anyways, not just from one oral dose).

The brown rock MDMA never gave me a hangover tbr. Only less pure MDMA has ever given me a hangover. Research chemicals, of course, are a huge possibility for MDMA adulterants.

I don't understand why this is so revered

Because the brown molly with the white dust is the best I've ever had lol

I can attest that MDMA will indeed turn this color under enough heat. It also tastes terrible if one tries vaporizing it thusly, and the compound is destroyed before it has any real effect on the user… which is more or less how I discovered the color-changing under heat properties. As a RoA, this is not recommended, and as a field test, it's not terrible accurate either, because…

Nope, not true at all. Right off the top of my head, most dissociatives turn red when heated as well, including and especially Ketamine, but also MXE did this as do most substituted arylcyclohexylamines I've experimented with vaporizing. They taste medicinal and gross and become red puddles in an oil burner. I'm quite confident there are other compounds that will do this as well; I seem to recall one of the pyrovalerone drugs going this route, too.

Well, the thing about that is, if you ingest Ketamine or MXE, you're going to know it's not MDMA. That makes the color/melt test the easiest and most effective quick testing method. A reagent kit would be more confusing.

Assuming it's clean, pure methamphetamine hydrochloride. Otherwise it leaves a residue any number of hues but typically brown-ish.

Thank you for clarifying

What're you basing this on? Clear + red != yellow. I suspect you're just speculating wildly here, no offense, but I can't get onboard with this conjecture

I base this on the fact that molecules can have a tendency to change hue based on density. Smoke in a bong will go from white to green-ish to yellow if you fill it up. Blueberry juice appears red when it leaks or drips out, but blue when you have a large mass of it. I have field tested many samples (because I like science, and it's easy, and fun!) this way, and not many actually bore a color besides clear, black, or shades of brown. That means it was most likely MDMA molecules dispersed through a layer of clear adulterant, but again, this is just conjecture.

 

[unodelacosa]

Ah, goddammit. This is gonna be tedious. Anyone willing to follow this, strap in, and sorry in advance I didn't have it in me to whittle down my reponses any further than two passes.

Also to anyone I disagree with, please try not to be so defensive. We can disagree on these topics, and I'll still respect you as long as you're cool, nice to be people, and don't mind my long AF responses…

Thank you for clarifying

You're welcome. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ I'm gonna give you the benefit of the doubt here and pretend/hope you're not being childishly sarcastic. And for the record, I write to educate the public, not just solely you, so please understand if I seem ever like I'm stating the obvious.

Bro, I was addicted to meth for years.

Sorry to hear that. The fact that you were not good at using meth responsibly does not mean the experience is universal to everyone. In fact it kinda indicates you'd have a skewed opinion on the matter. I'm genuinely sorry to hear about your drug abuse, compulsivity and dependency problems. But please don't project that on others. I opt for self-discipline and responsibility, and I've used meth reasonably for nearly three decades now. It's a shame that various smear campaigns totally fucked the last two generations out of an amazing compound in which the obvious pitfalls that can be avoided once they're understood.

Misunderstood chemical?

Yes, very. That's what I wrote. Considering your subjectively bad experience I know it's tempting to want to assume everyone's experience more or less would end the same as your assumably miserable time with meth did. A lot of ppl do not understand how to use it correctly while avoiding being strung out, seemingly present company is no exception. And please drop the notion that being strung out on something makes one an expert on that compound. Being terrible at something does not make one an expert, and this is true of most things, not just drugs… It's like Doug Stanhope said, "The only people opposed to drugs are those who've never used drugs, and those who really sucked at using them."

Ehh...yeah. OK.

I think this tone is what irked me initially, but now I think I see why you responded like you did considering your trauma in failing at responsible meth use. You could drop the sarcasm though… it's unbecoming and I get the impression you're a genuinely likeable person otherwise.

I wish you the best of luck with that, because the stuff that got me hooked was perfectly clear...and not that healthy.

Don't need luck, just self-discipline and a reasonable approach to drug use.
Perfectly clear crystals, btw, does not indicate high-quality meth, just for the record; but if you say you were "hooked" on really good meth, I believe you.
"Not that healthy" – yep, just like alcohol, tobacco, or virtually any vice for that matter.

I pray for you brotha lol

What's "lol" about the statement "I pray for you"? Are you genuine about this or attempting to patronize me?

A little about my background: twenty-something years ago I was manufacturing pure crystal methamphetamine via several methods, P-2-P into racemic meth with in situ methylamine production amid reduction agents, and both the Nagai (HI acid reduction) and the Birch reduction to produce d-isomer methamphetamine. I have no qualms mentioning this since this all happened well beyond the statute of limitations, and I make my money legally now besides, but that's not the point.

From sassafras oil I distilled safrole to produce MDP-2-P via a variant of the Wacker oxidation with Palladium II Chloride, and from there I reduced that to MDMA, MDA, and MDE. I've made the ketone from isosafrole via the Leuckart reaction as well. From Indian Dill Seed Oil (made my lab smell like pickles), I rendered DMMDA-2 which is fun and very MDA-like but more visual and with a bit more body load, and DMMDMA-2 whose activity was almost entirely absent. Also synthesized TMA-2, 2C-I, GHB, and a few substituted cathinones just for fun.

I have an unusually in-depth knowledge of illegal drugs, rare and exotic compounds, the illicit drug trade, and I'm also deeply familiar with an alphabet soup bowl of compounds. I won't bother listing all the acronyms here, but trust: you're not talking to a noob and you're preaching to the wrong one, my guy.

The brown rock MDMA never gave me a hangover tbr. Only less pure MDMA has ever given me a hangover.

Do me a favor: get a copy of the Merck manual, look up the entry for MDMA hydrochloride, and then tell me what color their sample has listed. (Hint: it's bright white). I'll bet you you're not gonna see "brown" listed as the proper color of a pure sample. But don't take my word for it; go ahead and look it up.

Still don't believe me? Check out this photo essay on the Nitromethane/Al/Hg reductive amination technique of MDP-2-P to MDMA. EDIT: forgot link (https://www.erowid.org/archive/rhodium/clandestine/gonzo/index.html) Notice what color the end product is. Please be sure you're familiar with this source before, and in case, you publicly call it into question. Know what The-Hive.ws was first, if you don't already.

Perhaps the doo-doo brown MDMA you love never gave you a serotonin-depletion hangover b/c it was never very pure MDMA to begin with, have you considered that? And I know I'm far from the only one who has experienced the "Suicide Tuesday" feeling after a weekend of rolling. Just saying perhaps; try not to take my head off for suggesting this. I honestly think the coloration comes from chemists dripping in the iconic-smelling sassafras oil in their batches, which is a signature meant to prove it was from the legitimate plant source. Sometimes though, I believe it's some shitty impurity and who knows if it will affect the high…

Research chemicals, of course, are a huge possibility for MDMA adulterants.

"Thank you for clarifying" … ?

Because the brown molly with the white dust is the best I've ever had lol

"lol", indeed.

Well, the thing about that is, if you ingest Ketamine or MXE, you're going to know it's not MDMA.

You ingest Ketamine? That's your RoA for that drug? I have no facts or figures here, but for some reason I feel like this would fuck off the bioavailability. I've insufflated K, IM'd it, IV'd it, vaporized it, laced joints with it, but I've never knowingly ingested K nor seen anyone do this, and I'm no stranger to the arylcyclohexylamines, K being no exception. I guess you have experience in this though, right? How is it compared to the usual route of insufflation?

And anyway, for most people, the point of presumptive testing is that they'd like to identify the drug before randomly throwing unknown chemicals down their gullet like you did in your anecdote above (for the record, I would've done the same thing as you there, but we should both admit it's not the safest move probably.)

That makes the color/melt test the easiest and most effective quick testing method. A reagent kit would be more confusing.

Easiest and most effective according to your logic perhaps. I'm tempted to say you're being ridiculous right here, but I agree with you that reagent test kits are presumptive and really of severely limited utility, often resulting in confusion from what I've witnessed. But I also wouldn't put my faith in your so-called color/melt test, which now I'm just curious: did you invent this test or learn it from someone/some place? I remember discovering what occurs to vaped MDMA, but I never considered that to be a reliable field test.

I base this on the fact that molecules can have a tendency to change hue based on density. Smoke in a bong will go from white to green-ish to yellow if you fill it up.

Arguably a decent point at least, but bad example in which you might not have all your facts together on that.

Blueberry juice appears red when it leaks or drips out, but blue when you have a large mass of it. I have field tested many samples (because I like science, and it's easy, and fun!) this way, and not many actually bore a color besides clear, black, or shades of brown. That means it was most likely MDMA molecules dispersed through a layer of clear adulterant, but again, this is just conjecture.

Clearly conjecture, definitely making lots of small, illogical jumps.

Bro, I was addicted to meth for years.

Yeah I know, bro. Sorry it didn't go so well for you.

 

[EntheoDjinn]

............You ingest Ketamine? That's your RoA for that drug? I have no facts or figures here, but for some reason I feel like this would fuck off the bioavailability.

Not wishing to divert this discussion - I have been following it with interest since it's inception - but for the record my own experience is that the bioavailability of ingested K is not completely destroyed. It may take 2-3 times as much to achieve the same levels of dissociative experience, but for me and my partner it was always worth it (it was pure and cheap vetinary quality via the web prior to the clamp down). The experience was deep and long - wave after wave after wave. Especially at the end of a good quality MDMA roll. End of diversion.

 

[unodelacosa]

the bioavailability of ingested K is not completely destroyed. It may take 2-3 times as much to achieve the same levels of dissociative experience

By "fuck off the bioavailability" this is actually what I meant – a huge drop in effectiveness via that route, but I assumed some activity remained. In a similar manner, cocaine can be orally ingested, too, and it still retains something like 30% bioavailability and some weak activity is felt. Due to these metabolic shortcomings, I figured oral consumption was just wasting product. I didn't know people regularly ingested Ketamine… Now you and @Zuda have me interested in what kind of pharmacokinetics are involved.

Thanks for sharing. Clever name, too. Side note: did you know that magic, wish-granting "genies" share etymological roots with the word "Djinn" both referring the demons. You see, a genie in a lamp is actually a demon, which explains why whenever he grants a wish, it usually backfires on the one who made said wish in an unforeseeable manner…

 

[Jmoda]

Not wishing to divert this discussion - I have been following it with interest since it's inception - but for the record my own experience is that the bioavailability of ingested K is not completely destroyed. It may take 2-3 times as much to achieve the same levels of dissociative experience, but for me and my partner it was always worth it (it was pure and cheap vetinary quality via the web prior to the clamp down). The experience was deep and long - wave after wave after wave. Especially at the end of a good quality MDMA roll. End of diversion.

Will confirm ketamine oral/sublingual bio availability. Believe it or not it can be better than intranasal especially when you start getting caked up

For many archcyclos it can be a preferable route. 2fdck is the poster boy for this. Arguably DMXE is a coin flip.

But back to the topic at hand...

 

[unodelacosa]

But back to the topic at hand..

On it:

@indigoaura Ok found another interesting round of links for you to check out
___________________

• Methylation of 3,4-methylenedioxymethamphetamine in formalin-fixed human liver tissue (https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/16419406/) October 2005
• Postmortem distribution of 3,4-methylenedioxy-N,N-dimethyl-amphetamine (MDDM or MDDA) in a fatal MDMA overdose (https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s00414-006-0094-x) April 2006
• Custom Synthesis and Analytical Properties of 3,4-Methylenedioxy-N,N-dimethylamphetamine (MDDMA) (https://www.researchgate.net/public...4-Methylenedioxy-NN-dimethylamphetamine_MDDMA) June 1993
• LC‐MS/MS in the elucidation of an isomer of the recreational drug methylenedioxy ethylamphetamine: Methylenedioxy dimethylamphetamine (https://analyticalsciencejournals.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/jssc.200500108)
• Binding Mode Selection Determines the Action of Ecstasy Homologs at Monoamine Transporters (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4702095/) and here: (https://www.researchgate.net/public...of_Ecstasy_Homologs_at_Monoamine_Transporters)

EDIT: given that MDE (or MDEA, same thing) has the same molecular weight as MDDM (or MDDMA)… I guess first, can Energy Control detect MDE? Do they have that analytical standard? If so, would it be reasonable conjecture that they would find the presence of MDDM and most likely confuse it with, or for, MDEA?

 

[Zuda]

Multi-quote doesn't wanna work

"You're welcome. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ I'm gonna give you the benefit of the doubt here and pretend/hope you're not being childishly sarcastic. And for the record, I write to educate the public, not just solely you, so please understand if I seem ever like I'm stating the obvious."
I'm not being sarcastic...I came here to have fun, not to have an attitude. lol

"Sorry to hear that. The fact that you were not good at using meth responsibly does not mean the experience is universal to everyone. In fact it kinda indicates you'd have a skewed opinion on the matter. I'm genuinely sorry to hear about your drug abuse, compulsivity and dependency problems. But please don't project that on others. I opt for self-discipline and responsibility, and I've used meth reasonably for nearly three decades now. It's a shame that various smear campaigns totally fucked the last two generations out of an amazing compound in which the obvious pitfalls that can be avoided once they're understood."
You are not going to want to hear this, but you are saying that because you are in active addiction. Do you have any idea how many meth addicts I have known? I don't, I just know it's a lot. Out of all the meth addicts I've known, want to know how many had their shit together, and were not suffering a range of detrimental side-effects? 0%. Trying to justify your use is a constant (using constant as the opposite of 'variable' here) part of amphetamine addiction. I have seen this behavior so many times, in so many different people, including myself. While it's amazing that you have been able to hold on for so long, meth is a one-way road. Believe me or not....your choice.

"Yes, very. That's what I wrote. Considering your subjectively bad experience I know it's tempting to want to assume everyone's experience more or less would end the same as your assumably miserable time with meth did. A lot of ppl do not understand how to use it correctly while avoiding being strung out, seemingly present company is no exception. And please drop the notion that being strung out on something makes one an expert on that compound. Being terrible at something does not make one an expert, and this is true of most things, not just drugs… It's like Doug Stanhope said, "The only people opposed to drugs are those who've never used drugs, and those who really sucked at using them.""
I would consider myself an expert on many different chemicals. You're right--being strung out doesn't give one knowledge, but being strung out is only where I got a portion of my knowledge. Again, you're not gonna like hearing this, but a great portion of my knowledge comes from watching other people who are strung out on it. The grand majority of addicts say the same stuff: "It helps me," "I can handle it better than other people," etc. etc... My idea of meth doesn't come from a subjective experience. It comes from literally every experience with it that I've ever seen anyone go through. You seem pretty sure that you'll be the 1 person who is immune

""Not that healthy" – yep, just like alcohol, tobacco, or virtually any vice for that matter."
Unlike alcohol and tobacco, methamphetamine is so highly neurotoxic that it causes delirium in a subset of people...I mean come on, I'm sure we've all witnessed this once or twice. For these people, the amount consumed doesn't even matter. Tobacco's not gonna do that. Anyone can take a shot or 2 of alcohol without that happening.

"From sassafras oil I distilled safrole to produce MDP-2-P via a variant of the Wacker oxidation with Palladium II Chloride, and from there I reduced that to MDMA, MDA, and MDE. I've made the ketone from isosafrole via the Leuckart reaction as well. From Indian Dill Seed Oil (made my lab smell like pickles), I rendered DMMDA-2 which is fun and very MDA-like but more visual and with a bit more body load, and DMMDMA-2 whose activity was almost entirely absent. Also synthesized TMA-2, 2C-I, GHB, and a few substituted cathinones just for fun."
That sounds very fun. But uhh, I don't wanna comment further. /incognito

"I have an unusually in-depth knowledge of illegal drugs, rare and exotic compounds, the illicit drug trade, and I'm also deeply familiar with an alphabet soup bowl of compounds. I won't bother listing all the acronyms here, but trust: you're not talking to a noob and you're preaching to the wrong one, my guy."
I have literally been called "Drug Jesus" before. lol. You're not talking to a noob either but you know, it's not a size contest. xD

"Do me a favor: get a copy of the Merck manual, look up the entry for MDMA hydrochloride, and then tell me what color their sample has listed. (Hint: it's bright white). I'll bet you you're not gonna see "brown" listed as the proper color of a pure sample. But don't take my word for it; go ahead and look it up.

Still don't believe me? Check out this photo essay on the Nitromethane/Al/Hg reductive amination technique of MDP-2-P to MDMA. EDIT: forgot link (https://www.erowid.org/archive/rhodium/clandestine/gonzo/index.html) Notice what color the end product is. Please be sure you're familiar with this source before, and in case, you publicly call it into question. Know what The-Hive.ws was first, if you don't already."
Yeah dude, I believe you. Doesn't change the fact that the brown stuff was hands-down the best MDMA, in my opinion, and the opinion of many others around me. A batch of chemical can be incredibly pure and still bear an unusual color. Depends on the reagents involved. I've certainly never had all-white MDMA that came close.

"Perhaps the doo-doo brown MDMA you love never gave you a serotonin-depletion hangover b/c it was never very pure MDMA to begin with, have you considered that? And I know I'm far from the only one who has experienced the "Suicide Tuesday" feeling after a weekend of rolling. Just saying perhaps; try not to take my head off for suggesting this. I honestly think the coloration comes from chemists dripping in the iconic-smelling sassafras oil in their batches, which is a signature meant to prove it was from the legitimate plant source. Sometimes though, I believe it's some shitty impurity and who knows if it will affect the high…"
We're talking about testing and I mentioned I have a reagent test kit. Do you think I never tested it?

"You ingest Ketamine? That's your RoA for that drug? I have no facts or figures here, but for some reason I feel like this would fuck off the bioavailability. I've insufflated K, IM'd it, IV'd it, vaporized it, laced joints with it, but I've never knowingly ingested K nor seen anyone do this, and I'm no stranger to the arylcyclohexylamines, K being no exception. I guess you have experience in this though, right? How is it compared to the usual route of insufflation?

And anyway, for most people, the point of presumptive testing is that they'd like to identify the drug before randomly throwing unknown chemicals down their gullet like you did in your anecdote above (for the record, I would've done the same thing as you there, but we should both admit it's not the safest move probably.)"
So ingest just means to take in, it doesn't imply an ROA. But umm, you're right, taking the chemical after it proved to be something foreign and unknown was a horrible idea. I had a bad time. DO NOT RECOMMEND!

"Easiest and most effective according to your logic perhaps. I'm tempted to say you're being ridiculous right here, but I agree with you that reagent test kits are presumptive and really of severely limited utility, often resulting in confusion from what I've witnessed. But I also wouldn't put my faith in your so-called color/melt test, which now I'm just curious: did you invent this test or learn it from someone/some place? I remember discovering what occurs to vaped MDMA, but I never considered that to be a reliable field test."
I learned it from somebody else. But yes, if you want to get a quick test done right then to see if it is or is not MDMA, the foil method is the quickest and easiest method to do so, while still being reliable. There could be a million other quick and easy methods that won't yield a reliable result. This one will tell you for sure, unless we discover another chemical that has MDMA-similar effects and melts red

"Arguably a decent point at least, but bad example in which you might not have all your facts together on that."
I do have my facts all together...I gave multiple examples lol. Another example is that mold starts out green and then becomes black once there's a lot of it condensed into one place. A disgusting example, I know. I hate mold.

"Clearly conjecture, definitely making lots of small, illogical jumps."
There's not a single illogical jump that I made. We are discussing science. In the field of science, one is supposed to present counter-evidence if they disagree with a theory. Otherwise, that theory that you disagree with is still the strongest theory. Of course, we'll never know why it was yellow now, all we can do is conjecture. So it really doesn't matter, but yeah, if you can't see the logic behind what I said, maybe it's because there's something in the way...

By the way, did you know that when you smoke meth, it crystalizes over your neurons? You can feel it happening, if you pay attention...not sure about other ROAs because smoking was my avenue. But yeah...when I said I would pray for you, I meant it.

But nah, of course I'm not here to fight or argue. I really wish I could just hand you some of that brown shit that's been MIA so it could knock your socks off and you could see. lol

 

[indigoaura]

On it:

@indigoaura Ok found another interesting round of links for you to check out
___________________

• Methylation of 3,4-methylenedioxymethamphetamine in formalin-fixed human liver tissue (https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/16419406/) October 2005
• Postmortem distribution of 3,4-methylenedioxy-N,N-dimethyl-amphetamine (MDDM or MDDA) in a fatal MDMA overdose (https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s00414-006-0094-x) April 2006
• Custom Synthesis and Analytical Properties of 3,4-Methylenedioxy-N,N-dimethylamphetamine (MDDMA) (https://www.researchgate.net/public...4-Methylenedioxy-NN-dimethylamphetamine_MDDMA) June 1993
• LC‐MS/MS in the elucidation of an isomer of the recreational drug methylenedioxy ethylamphetamine: Methylenedioxy dimethylamphetamine (https://analyticalsciencejournals.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/jssc.200500108)
• Binding Mode Selection Determines the Action of Ecstasy Homologs at Monoamine Transporters (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4702095/) and here: (https://www.researchgate.net/public...of_Ecstasy_Homologs_at_Monoamine_Transporters)

EDIT: given that MDE (or MDEA, same thing) has the same molecular weight as MDDM (or MDDMA)… I guess first, can Energy Control detect MDE? Do they have that analytical standard? If so, would it be reasonable conjecture that they would find the presence of MDDM and most likely confuse it with, or for, MDEA?

I have already linked a lot of these. I had only read the abstract previously, but in the article, "Binding Mode Selection Determines the Action of Ecstasy Homologs," they mention that "MDDMA and MDTMA blocked uptake at the monoamine transporters," and also that "Importantly, MDDMA can alternate between both binding modes." They point out that, "Inhibitors block transport, whereas substrates can induce nonexocytotic substrate release." This is discussed in the Pifl paper as well.

In agreement with previous findings (Baumann et al., 2007; Rickli et al., 2015a), the present data show that MDA and MDMA induce [3H]substrate release via DAT, NET, and SERT in a nonselective manner (Fig. 2, D–F), suggesting that these compounds are “full” substrates of all three transporters. Conversely, MDDMA and MDTMA failed to induce [3H]MPP+ release via DAT and NET, indicating that these compounds act as transport inhibitors at DAT, NET, and SERT.

Although I have not seen a study examining how MDDMA consumption would impact MDMA effects, there are studies out there that show how other monoamine inhibitors impact MDMA effects.

Have you read this?

Hysek, C. M., Simmler, L. D., Nicola, V. G., Vischer, N., Donzelli, M., Krähenbühl, S., … Liechti, M. E. (2012). Duloxetine Inhibits Effects of MDMA (“Ecstasy”) In Vitro and in Humans in a Randomized Placebo-Controlled Laboratory Study. PLoS ONE, 7(5), e36476. doi:10.1371/journal.pone.0036476

Sci-Hub | Duloxetine Inhibits Effects of MDMA (“Ecstasy”) In Vitro and in Humans in a Randomized Placebo-Controlled Laboratory Study. PLoS ONE, 7(5), e36476 | 10.1371/journal.pone.0036476

The graphs and descriptions of how the MDMA experience is blunted for virgin MDMA users is in line with what I have experienced from "meh-DMA." There are other articles that discuss how eye dilation is inhibited if MDMA is mixed with certain monoamine inhibitors.

This is how I think of it. MDMA wants to turn the water hose of your brain ON. It wants to turn the faucet to the on position, recycle the water, and keep the water flowing. Monoamine inhibitors seem to lock the faucet in the off or trickle position.

So, to summarize...

Published, peer reviewed research demonstrates:

1. That synthesis byproducts remain present in street MDMA and are often difficult to identify.
2. That some synthesis byproducts are monoamine inhibitors.
3. That monoamine inhibitors block the effects of MDMA.

None of those statements are me drawing conclusions; they are facts that have already been established through research.

The questions that remain are whether our "meh" samples actually contain any synthesis byproducts/contaminants that are monoamine inhibitors, and whether the amount of synthesis byproduct present in an MDMA sample would be enough to have an effect on oral administration.

There could be genetic factors at play for why some people are more sensitive than others, such as the overall quantity of monoamine transporters present in the brain etc.

 

[indigoaura]

@Zuda and @unodelacosa

I don't have time right now to find a lot of links, but I want to add a quick comment to your addiction debate.

There are significant genetic variables that impact how dopamine is released and the type of reward response that people get from dopamine. This is one reason why ADHD meds allow ADHD individuals to function normally, but would make another person feel "high." Dopamine release and response is a significant factor in addiction. It really is not as simple as you either have discipline or you don't. It is also not as simple as Meth being addictive for everyone.

Some people are going to be very vulnerable to the dopamine reward provided by meth and other people are not. You can have genetic testing done that will show you which mutations you have and whether you are likely to be highly influenced by dopamine rewards. I don't think either one of you truly knows what it is like to be the other, because you probably have brains that are wired very differently.

For some people, discipline will allow them to use meth responsibly and not in an addictive fashion, but for other people, that is not possible. It is truly dependent on individual brain chemistry and your dopaminergic system.

 

[Jmoda]

I dont understand whats wrong with someone saying their best experience was brown mdma.

You can have the purest shit and the smallest impurity amount can taint the color....

 

[SKL]

I dont understand whats wrong with someone saying their best experience was brown mdma.

You can have the purest shit and the smallest impurity amount can taint the color....

Yes, but

I honestly think the coloration comes from chemists dripping in the iconic-smelling sassafras oil in their batches, which is a signature meant to prove it was from the legitimate plant source. Sometimes though, I believe it's some shitty impurity and who knows if it will affect the high…

Can confirm they definitely used to do this. Pure marketing. This was the large batch commercial brown stuff out of Europe and people doing it on smaller scale here as well. We were talking about this elsewhere, but tree hugging hippie types liked the idea that their "sass" (used to refer to MDA but also to MDMA) came from plants, and so could say that they were taking "natural" drugs (meanwhile the same people loved acid but looked askance at heroin or cocaine. Hmm.) Some of this stuff used to be of very high quality, though, I can attest, in fact it was probably the best MDMA that most people on the scene had access for a number of years. It wouldn't be the first time that the whims of the popular drug culture lead the market astray as to what was really good stuff and what was not. In kind of the reverse of the scenario with the brown MDMA, some of the best LSD I sampled, which was quite pure according to LC/MS, happened to be off-color in solution (this was a case of the phenomenon of very small impurities resulting in large discolorations.) In liquid form, it was shunned as "dirty silver" while it was probably was purer than the "white fluff" that was circulating beside it. Put onto paper, it was, of course, sold as the "white" and all were satisfied.

You ingest Ketamine? That's your RoA for that drug? I have no facts or figures here, but for some reason I feel like this would fuck off the bioavailability. I've insufflated K, IM'd it, IV'd it, vaporized it, laced joints with it, but I've never knowingly ingested K nor seen anyone do this, and I'm no stranger to the arylcyclohexylamines, K being no exception. I guess you have "experience in this though, right? How is it compared to the usual route of insufflation?

Ingesting K is mega wasteful compared to parenteral administration but is actually lovely. Doses are northwards of a gram, but who was counting when Indian "pre-fab" K was super cheap in bulk? The oral experience lasts considerably longer, as one might expect, but is qualitatively different too, in ways that are hard to articulate. I'd say that it feels mellower and more akin to a classic psychedelic (albeit of course still being very much a dissociative.)

You are not going to want to hear this, but you are saying that because you are in active addiction. Do you have any idea how many meth addicts I have known? I don't, I just know it's a lot. Out of all the meth addicts I've known, want to know how many had their shit together, and were not suffering a range of detrimental side-effects? 0%. Trying to justify your use is a constant (using constant as the opposite of 'variable' here) part of amphetamine addiction. I have seen this behavior so many times, in so many different people, including myself. While it's amazing that you have been able to hold on for so long, meth is a one-way road. Believe me or not....your choice.

With regards to the little slapfight about meth, I have to come down with @unodelacosa again, all due respect to @Zuda's experience of addiction. Taking controlled dosages of MA is an entirely different ballgame than smoking bowls and doing lines of commercial product. Even less than 100mg of good product can lead to a great, euphoric experience that even can take on some serotonergic, "rolly" characteristics. The neurotoxicity is only happening when people are taking retarded dosages for days. It's especially absurd (not to say offensive) to accuse another person of being in active addiction precisely because they claim not to be. ("Orr was crazy and could be grounded. All he had to do was ask; and as soon as he did, he would no longer be crazy and would have to fly more missions. Orr would be crazy to fly more missions and sane if he didn't, but if he was sane he had to fly them.") I don't say this to pooh-pooh addiction, I'm in recovery myself, but no, in fact, not everyone who took the same girls to the dance as we did wound up with the clap.

I once had a very dear friend (RIP) who was a very dedicated and prolific polydrug user. Experienced guy, could handle his shit. He was visiting me, and I had to go to work. I left a box of various carefully labelled drugs in his care. He asked me if he could try a little bit of the MA (snow-white, very fine crystals, almost powder.) I said why not. I wasn't worried. It didn't occur to me that he wasn't counting on it being about as pure as it could possibly be. He went ahead and IV'd some eyeballed amount. He absolutely lost his shit and wound up on the inpatient psychiatry service. Sola dosis facit venenum and all that. Really good meth doesn't necessarily have those big crystals so pleasing to the eyes of tweakers. It can, but more often than not those are methylsulfonylmethane or something similar.

 

[AutoTripper]

Every now and then, as this smart, commendable chemistry-oriented collective enquiry is over my head presently....and this thread is still titled as it is, I just want to chime in again with this one surely very telling point, for any visiting doubters of the MEH’s existence:

From 1996 and right up until May 2005, I cannot recall such talk. I have no experience like the fab members @indigoaura and @G_Chem frequently feeling disappointed and fobbed off.

We just....never had those discussions, in general, right in 2005 MDMA Crystal and pure white powder was so free flowing, the presses were top, like 130 mg plus of the best MDMA.

There was no talk of MEH. I lost no magic, 9 years on

I admit I took shit pills in 1996. Good OG ones too, Dolphins, Doves, Elephants etc.

But in 2005, just as happy. Nobody asking why MDMA wasn’t working for them.

Which is why I cannot see this discussion existing if all MDMA is original and equal.

So it’s a real, and worthy cause, IMO. Don’t give up.

 

[indigoaura]

MDDMA assumes both substrate-like and inverted binding modes when docked into SERT, and our results unequivocally show that it acts as a substrate of this transporter. Interestingly, saturating concentrations of MDDMA released less 5-HT than the other compounds in our release assays. Considering the fact that for MDDMA, some poses were identified that docked into SERT in the transport competent binding orientation, we speculate that some SERT molecules are inhibited by MDDMA binding in a reversed orientation, while others are stimulated to release because MDDMA binds to them in a substrate-like orientation. A mechanism for partial release can be envisioned, in which a single compound acts like a mixture of two compounds, with one being a substrate and the other an inhibitor. The insurmountable inhibitory action could then explain why it is not possible to obtain full release by raising the concentration of the compound.

Binding Mode Selection Determines the Action of Ecstasy Homologs at Monoamine Transporters - PMC

Determining the structural elements that define substrates and inhibitors at the monoamine transporters is critical to elucidating the mechanisms underlying these disparate functions. In this study, we addressed this question directly by generating ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

This is some dense reading, but this quote is interesting to me. What I want to know is whether this insurmountable inhibitory action would also dominate if MDDMA was mixed with MDMA.

 

[indigoaura]

I emailed the author of the study linked in the previous post.

Dear Mr. Sandtner,

I recently reviewed your article, "Binding Mode Selection Determines the Action of Ecstasy Homologs at Monoamine Transporters," and I hope you may be willing to answer some questions.

In the article you state that "The insurmountable inhibitory action could then explain why it is not possible to obtain full release by raising the concentration of the compound."

What impact do you think this compound would have on the binding and release action of MDMA if the two compounds were mixed?

Is it hypothetically possible that the inhibitory quality of the MDDMA would also inhibit the action of the MDMA?

Collaborators and I have been discussing significant variation in MDMA user reports. Some users report a blunted MDMA experience. Recently, lab results showed the presence of MDDMA as a contaminant present in a MDMA sample that produced diminished effects. Theoretically, it seems like the MDDMA could be inhibiting the effects of MDMA at monoamine transporters. We are curious to know if you think this is possible, based on your research.

Thank you very much for your time.

Regards,
Indigo

He replied:

Dear Indigo, If mixed I would expect that. It depends, however, on how much of the contaminant is present. Greetings Walter

Now, I am trying to get more information on how much would need to be present to impact the transporters.

 

[Imadoofus]

I started rolling in the late 90s; half a white dove and I was in love

Rolled periodically until 2005, then took an 11 year hiatus. My close friend sourced some mdma crystal for me and I must confess, I too, was under the impression the "magic" was no more. It wasn't a bad experience, just not what i remembered from the years prior. Came across some red bulls over a year ago and once again, enjoyable but nowhere near the same effect or intensity. Fast forward to last weekend in orlando, stumbled across the red Supreme presses with glitter in them. Tested them, instantly smoked and fizzed, turning from dark purple to black in about 3 seconds.

Let me tell all of you, by far the best pills I've ever rolled on in my life. The first half was pure bliss, better than I could have imagined. Pure euphoria, happiness in abundance and I had perma googly eyes. Rolled for 3 hours and dropped the other half. I was mangled for another 3 hours, grinding my teeth and massaging anything with a heartbeat east of the Mississippi. I inquired later where the pills were sourced from, to learn they were from the Netherlands. Makes sense, I guess.

Its not you. Its the quality of the drugs and synthesis used. The magic is still there, if you're lucky enough to find good mdma.