What IS withdrawal, exactly?

[TheDownwardSpiral]

Mods - please move to the appropriate forum or close if it has been answered before (I don't think it has, but I could be wrong - apologies in advance).

I've been withdrawaling from a 2.5 - 3 month oxymorphone binge since Tuesday (last dose of opiates being Tuesday afternoon, today is Saturday) and have experienced very little symptoms (hot/cold, minor abdominal discomfort, minor leg acheness) - NOTHING like coming off cold turkey from oxycodone, and I'd like to know why...

Is withdrawal caused by specific drugs (oxymorphone versus oxycodone, heroin, hydrocodone, etc) leaving the body or just from opiates in general detaching from your receptors? The last 3 days, being Sunday, Monday and Tuesday, I did not use Opana at all, instead used oxycodone, suboxone and a couple of other opiates - could this be why? Meaning did using these other opiates non-habitually (in a sense...) get me "through" the Opana withdrawal, and since the other drugs weren't used enough to build up in my system, they did not cause withdrawal? Or did I perhaps use them in some sort of order that caused a tapering effect (it sure as hell wasn't intentional, haha)?

I'm just really confused because I was dreading this, but there has been very little discomfort.

 

[Cane2theLeft]

Your body becomes used to the presence of a substance and requires it to function normally and when you abruptly discontinue it you get roughly the opposite effects that the substance produced... this is the 1 line, ridiculously oversimplified nutshell.


--->BDD

 

[BoomBoxer]

Im no expert but with opiates i was told it is because the opiates down regulate certain parts of the brain which over time creep back up as in tolerance. When you stop taking the drug that part of the brain shoots into overdrive giving the opposite effects of the opiate.

A very simplified version i know but i think this is the basic priciple lol.

 

[hobhead]

when the use of central nervous system (CNS) depressants is halted it rebounds far above it's natural level . hence the physical and physiological rodeo. no sleep, bowels, nose , every thing out of kilter for a couple of weeks .

 

[vortex30]

Basically your brain and body make adjustments to compensate for the drugs presence, this phenomenon is also what leads to some instances of tolerance (though there are other mechanisms for tolerance to occur, such as neuro-transmitter depletion). When the drug use is discontinued, the levels of drug in your body fall faster than your body/brain is able to re-adjust to this absence. So for example, with benzodiazepines, your brain will compensate for the sedative effects by speeding itself up, so that you start to feel 'normal' whilst on the drug. Once the drug is gone, your body is now sped up beyond 'normal'.

Though really every drug varies as to why it causes withdrawal, factors like receptor up/down-regulation, etc. This is my basic understanding of dependency/withdrawal though.

 

[capRx]

Mods - please move to the appropriate forum or close if it has been answered before (I don't think it has, but I could be wrong - apologies in advance).

I've been withdrawaling from a 2.5 - 3 month oxymorphone binge since Tuesday (last dose of opiates being Tuesday afternoon, today is Saturday) and have experienced very little symptoms (hot/cold, minor abdominal discomfort, minor leg acheness) - NOTHING like coming off cold turkey from oxycodone, and I'd like to know why...

Is withdrawal caused by specific drugs (oxymorphone versus oxycodone, heroin, hydrocodone, etc) leaving the body or just from opiates in general detaching from your receptors? The last 3 days, being Sunday, Monday and Tuesday, I did not use Opana at all, instead used oxycodone, suboxone and a couple of other opiates - could this be why? Meaning did using these other opiates non-habitually (in a sense...) get me "through" the Opana withdrawal, and since the other drugs weren't used enough to build up in my system, they did not cause withdrawal? Or did I perhaps use them in some sort of order that caused a tapering effect (it sure as hell wasn't intentional, haha)?

I'm just really confused because I was dreading this, but there has been very little discomfort.

ha, don't kid yourself, you're not out of the woods! Opiates attach to the opiate receptors (I don't want to go into detail about incomplete cross-tolerance or specifics on which opiate receptors they bind to). But basically what you did was replace one opiate with another.

For the most part, if you are going through "oxy withdrawal", then take morphine or vicoden, you aren't going to feel the withdrawal effects because the vics and morphine are going to end up binding to the majority of the same opiate receptors, meaning you won't go through the withdrawals because the down-regulated receptors are still getting stimulated.

There really isn't any such thing as "oxy withdrawal" or "heroin withdrawal".. each opiate withdrawal may be a little bit different and the lenght/severity may vary, but they are all opiate withdrawals and they all have the same basic symptoms. They can all be induced by naloxone*, and stopped with a full agonist opiate. It doesn't matter which one.

There are a few exceptions to what I said, but I won't get into that now..

The real test is to go 3 days with NO opiates and then you can tell me if you feel any withdrawals or not..ha
In essence, you really can't say you escaped the 'opana withdrawals,' because there is no such thing, just opiate withdrawals. Your opiate receptors are still down-regulated, and the only way to have them go back to normal or, up-regulate, is to stop taking opiates.. So yes, you will end up feeling withdrawals symptoms around 12-24 hours of your last opiate dose whether it be oxy, etc, unless that last opiate was suboxone or methadone, then it may take a little longer than a day to start the w/d's.

best of luck!

-cap



*Suboxone is the only commonly used opiate that may not be fully reversed with naloxone. With a high enough dose, it should be, but it's debatable due to suboxone's slightly higher binding affinity.

 

[SPC123]

Sorry bro, but capRx is right. You can't talk about withdrawals if you are still using opiates. I mean you CAN, people certainly experience withdrawals while tapering, but don't delude yourself into thinking you are escaping any kind of dependence by simply switching the drug. As capRx said, stop using ANYTHING for a few days and let us know how it goes.

It's like saying "Man, I totally beat my oxy addiction! All I did was shoot a gram of H a day and it was all good!"

 

[I Eat Pho]

Yea, tapering down is one thing. You might feel slight withdrawal effects if you using comparable quantities with a comparable drug but cutting out 100% is a whole different ball game.

 

[...]

The last 3 days, being Sunday, Monday and Tuesday, I did not use Opana at all, instead used oxycodone, suboxone and a couple of other opiates - could this be why? Meaning did using these other opiates non-habitually (in a sense...) get me "through" the Opana withdrawal, and since the other drugs weren't used enough to build up in my system, they did not cause withdrawal? Or did I perhaps use them in some sort of order that caused a tapering effect (it sure as hell wasn't intentional, haha)?

The suboxone threw you into withdrawal.

 

[Wesley_pipes_27]

ha, don't kid yourself, you're not out of the woods!

But basically what you did was replace one opiate with another.

For the most part, if you are going through "oxy withdrawal", then take morphine or vicoden, you aren't going to feel the withdrawal effects because the vics and morphine are going to end up binding to the majority of the same opiate receptors, meaning you won't go through the withdrawals because the down-regulated receptors are still getting stimulated.

There really isn't any such thing as "oxy withdrawal" or "heroin withdrawal".. each opiate withdrawal may be a little bit different and the lenght/severity may vary, but they are all opiate withdrawals and they all have the same basic symptoms.


The real test is to go 3 days with NO opiates and then you can tell me if you feel any withdrawals or not..ha
In essence, you really can't say you escaped the 'opana withdrawals,' because there is no such thing, just opiate withdrawals. Your opiate receptors are still down-regulated, and the only way to have them go back to normal or, up-regulate, is to stop taking opiates.

^^^ IMO this is spot on. Well articulated Cap

WP

 

[RedBaron]

Hold up, hold up

ha, don't kid yourself, you're not out of the woods! Opiates attach to the opiate receptors (I don't want to go into detail about incomplete cross-tolerance or specifics on which opiate receptors they bind to). But basically what you did was replace one opiate with another.

For the most part, if you are going through "oxy withdrawal", then take morphine or vicoden, you aren't going to feel the withdrawal effects because the vics and morphine are going to end up binding to the majority of the same opiate receptors, meaning you won't go through the withdrawals because the down-regulated receptors are still getting stimulated.

There really isn't any such thing as "oxy withdrawal" or "heroin withdrawal".. each opiate withdrawal may be a little bit different and the lenght/severity may vary, but they are all opiate withdrawals and they all have the same basic symptoms. They can all be induced by naloxone*, and stopped with a full agonist opiate. It doesn't matter which one.

There are a few exceptions to what I said, but I won't get into that now..

The real test is to go 3 days with NO opiates and then you can tell me if you feel any withdrawals or not..ha
In essence, you really can't say you escaped the 'opana withdrawals,' because there is no such thing, just opiate withdrawals. Your opiate receptors are still down-regulated, and the only way to have them go back to normal or, up-regulate, is to stop taking opiates.. So yes, you will end up feeling withdrawals symptoms around 12-24 hours of your last opiate dose whether it be oxy, etc, unless that last opiate was suboxone or methadone, then it may take a little longer than a day to start the w/d's.

best of luck!

-cap



*Suboxone is the only commonly used opiate that may not be fully reversed with naloxone. With a high enough dose, it should be, but it's debatable due to suboxone's slightly higher binding affinity.

Well said, but you misread what he wrote. He said that he was using oxycodone/suboxone on the last couple of days of his opiate use, ending on the Tuesday that his binge ended. So he had been without opiates from then until Saturday when he posted the thread.

The Downward Sprial: What was your typical daily dose during this binge?

 

[capRx]

The last 3 days, being Sunday, Monday and Tuesday, I did not use Opana at all, instead used oxycodone, suboxone and a couple of other opiates

@RedBaron: Fuck!..Your right. I thought he meant within the last 3 days... sorry bout that.

ha, then to the OP, I really have no idea..my guess to why you didn't experience as rough of withdrawals as you would expect was because you took suboxone, which lasts longer in the body and b/c its a partial-agonist. (What I said earlier about taking the other full-agonist opiates is true and they wouldn't help the withdrawals in the long run, but if you take suboxone, it will have a stronger bind to the receptor than any other opiate you take, so if you took suboxone, then oxy, the oxy wouldn't attach to the opiate receptor and stimulate it, but instead just get metabolized with little effect, which in your case was a good thing). Your typical w/d is going to be 3-4 days, i have no experience with oxymorphone, but looking at its short half-life i would expect the withdrawals be on the shorter end. If you were to take suboxone, which has a 36 hour half-life, for 2-3 days, it would build up to a level in the body where even though you're not taking any drugs, your opiate receptors are still being stimulated, but only partially, which gives them a chance to up-regulate a little bit therefore easing the withdrawals even after the subs stop working.. 3 days later, your done with the oxymorphone w/d's and getting off suboxone after taking it for 2 days would barely be noticeable because it will slowly leave your system in a week.

I do the exact same thing with dope. I go on a couple week binge, take suboxone the next day after I stop and then taper the suboxone dose after the 2nd or third day when the heroin w/d's are suppose to be at there worst. I usually escape without it being excruciating/incapacitating like going off of it cold turkey. So i do believe you and I truly believe it was the suboxone speaking from anecdotal experience.

Just out of curiosity, are you or were you taking any other medications or OTC products during the 3 month binge till now?

 

[ch1nawhite]

i too somewhat have a question. ive gone through withdrawl plenty times, and what do ya know? going through it today. no oxys around. but i did take more than my regular dose, in hydrocodone. every morning i take 30mg oxycodone, and if i DONT take it when i first wake up, about 20 minutes, if that, my back will severly start to hurt (no injury that i know of), and i get the hot/cold sweats. just from missing my dose 10-20 minutes after. ive taken 40mgs of hydrocodone, and i still dont feel 'as good' as oxycodone. so my first question is, i missed my 30mg oxy dose, and took 40mg hydro, why dont i at least feel 'as good' ? now if i take say 60mg hydro, i would obviously feel better. ok another question, if i miss my regular morning 30mg oxy dose, how much kratom would be needed to fix the cold sweats and stuff? i have the capsules, and would take like 6-7. also i have some small symptoms when i miss my dose in the morning, very similar to allergy symptoms. when i miss my dose (esp in the morning)- my eyes get very teary eyed, nose starts running, then obviously i get very sore. also i sneeze ALOT.
i read somewhere also, that DMT can be used to cure opiate withdrawl. never tried this, and only read about it when i first looked it up, anyone have any input on this?