What is the safe ration to take between tyrosine and Choline

[Minded28]

Ok, so I know and have felt that the opposite of what am inquiring about is true, meaning that Choline supplementation over a long time will cause a dopamine drop definitively, without a doubt in my mind. But I guess the question here is that since ACh and Dopamine are both implicated in disorders like Alzheimer’s and Parkinson’s, and since in both of these cases the elevation of one shows a decrease in the other, and since its widely known that they sort of compete with each other in a way, does that mean that if I supplement with tyrosine and hence elevate my dopamine levels I will cause a Ach depletion over the long term...

The questions are if this is true:
1. Does Chronic Tyrosine supplementation lead to Choline depletion!
2. What is the safe ration to take between tyrosine and Choline.

Note: I am currently taking tyrosine and have stopped taking Choline for the time being. Along with tyrosine I take tryptophan at a 1:10 ratio, tryptophan at night and tyrosine in the morning. I have noticed that serotonin elevating supplements also seem to deplete my motivation, attention and will (dopamine/norepinepherine). I have been playing around with 5htp, choline, tyrosine, tryptophan for a long time now. I am beginning to think that it's not that we merely build tolerance to them, but instead that by using them without the right balance we risk the chance of coming back with a problem, that if your not very attentive you might miss the fact that it is usually symptomatic of another neurotransmitter depletion or a coenzyme sometimes...

Anyway I'd be happy to get a response to the two questions i posted.. And maybe some insightful explanation but please if you can provide something you read and so forth.. And my apologies if I posted in the wrong section or what not, am new here, and its my first time posting.

 

[sekio]

Taking dietary choline shouldn't effect dopamine and taking dietary tyrosine shouldn't effect ACh. Your body has homeostatic mechanisms to keep you from going into hypertension from tyrosine consumption, for instance.

You're greatly overthinking this.

 

[Minded28]

Ach and dopamine production are both to my knowledge not just dependent upon the tyrosin and choline supply with in the food supply of an individual but seem to also correlate with it. Now we know very well that some people have higher or lower levels of all of the known nuerotransmitters, that evryone does not share the same dietry constituents and that not everyone has the same metabolism, or lifestyle habits such as excercise, sleep pattern, and even sex life as everyone else... What am trying to get to in this is that homeostatic mechanisms no matter how good and complex they are, things have and will always find a way around them and supplementing with either choline or tyrosine is really in fact not that natural. They are to a degree considered drugs specially when used in the right way and have the potential to cause inbalances.

Example I have a few times gotten weird responses to all of the few things I mentioned earlier at relatively low doses, and I have found them to be more efective than many other drugs... Anyhow I would really appreciate if someone can answer this question as I stated it earlier. If you do your own research you will likewise see that am not the only one who mentioned this, and that it is a common thing to have depressive symptoms, panic attacks, and just almost all sorts of signs relating to dopamine depletion in people supplementing with choline. (I know that some of these things can be caused by a host of other problems, but the link between dopamine and Ach is too great to ignore)..

 

[sekio]

Ach and dopamine production are both to my knowledge not just dependent upon the tyrosin and choline supply with in the food supply of an individual but seem to also correlate with it.

Inasmuch that if you don't consume enough choline/tyrosine, you notice neurotransmitter levels take a hit, sure. But, for instance, taking shitloads of tyrosine will not lead to massive increases in brain dopamine because that's just not how your body metabolises amino acids. Likewise for choline. If I take lecithin daily, essentially all of the "extra choline" ends up in urine and faeces, because the body only takes what it needs.

supplementing with either choline or tyrosine is really in fact not that natural.

Well, except they're major components of a healthy human diet. So one could argue the converse. (By the same logic eating a diet rich in protien would cause problems)

that it is a common thing to have depressive symptoms, panic attacks, and just almost all sorts of signs relating to dopamine depletion in people supplementing with choline.

It's also really common for people with depressive symptoms, panic attacks, etc to go seeking supplements that will fix it. Maybe you have causality backwards.

Also, food for thought: Just because you take a drug and claim it has an effect, doesn't mean you can predict its actions on a low level. Especially if you never do a blind study to rule out placeb.

 

[Minded28]

Don't want to sound arrogant, but I do understand and acknowledge every single bit of detail you mentioned, and it does make sense. I'd like to, however, point out once more that yes even though the excess amounts will be urinated, or excreted out in some other way, some people naturally start out with imbalances (due to many causes). Some people natural have low everything and lower in specific things, and for someone to come and supplement one side of the equation which is low without doing so with the other which is lower for instance, there will inevitable be an aggravation of the problem and a bigger imbalance!

The problem here is not the protein or vitamin, but the way that the protein and the vitamins are taken. Naturally choline or tyrosine do not come in isolation from other nutrients, and hence are less likely to cause any sort of imbalance. Anyway, I do appreciate your feedback thank you, and am open to any other suggestions..

 

[SeenSoFar]

There are various rate-limiting steps in converting the precursors of neurotransmitters to said neurotransmitters. Furthermore, not all, for example, choline, you take will make it into the CNS. There is a choline transporter that will only move so much choline into the CNS at once. If, for example, you were taking alpha-GPC, which is a choline prodrug that can cross the BBB without using the choline transporter, that would be a different story, but simply taking choline is not going to have any more effect than a choline-rich diet would. That is to say, in an individual who is not already deficient in choline, not much of an effect at all. Same goes for catecholamine-precursors. In a healthy (see: not malnourished) person, the rate-limiting steps in catecholamine synthesis is saturated. Adding more, whether by way of catecholamine-rich foods or direct supplementation, is pointless. If you were, for example, taking L-DOPA and a DDCI such as carbidopa, then you would notice a difference in central catecholamine levels. Not so much in what you're describing. Keep in mind, I'm not trying to be an ass here, just to keep you from wasting time on the wrong cause of your problems. That being said, the "everyone is different" arguement doesn't really hold water here. If that truly were a factor, you would be noticing these effects from your every day diet (provided you eat better than an African refugee) because your diet contains far more choline and tyrosine than you are using at any given time. I'm on my cell at the moment and don't feel like digging out sources for what I've explained, but let me know if you need some and I will get them for you when I get home.

 

[Minded28]

Yes, that also makes sense and I am familiar with the rate limiting steps that have to do with neurotransmitter production, but am not sure why i find that I am highly sensitive to supplementation with either choline or tyrosine (am guessing that would mean that I don't get enough of them from my diet, or I just have a faulty transport mechanism in place, or that my body isn't very eficient at turning phenylalanine in tyrosin for example, or my reuptake mechanisms are wacky...)
It is a bit confusing because specially if I haven't taken them in a while, I find that they make a huge difference on my mental abilities. I also have a friend who when i give him choline he gets very smart lol...
Sorry if this is irrelevant, that's pretty much all I have to say, and yes any refrence would be greatly appreciated..
Thanks for your responses!