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What is human nature? v. And are we innately evil?

Early man in the Fertile Crescent before the climate changed it to desert. Recently watched a documentary on this. They were stationary hunter gatherers with ample food and low population. There is no evidence of warfare nor any hierarchy. This is from the archeological findings. They were the early arabic peoples I would guess but they had no name for them. Too early for that most likely. The golden age of humanity may have been very short. When the climate changed they had to scatter or die.

The oldest shrine know is about 70,000 years old. A serpent cult.

Cults have shaman and chiefs.

All groups have a leader of some kind. Sometimes just elders but it would be some kind of leadership group.

If you find a link to that program, I would like to see it.

Regards
DL
 
I don't think that all groups had a leader.

This is from wikipedia.
Hunter-gatherers tend to have an egalitarian social ethos, although settled hunter-gatherers (for example, those inhabiting the Northwest Coast of North America) are an exception to this rule. Nearly all African hunter-gatherers are egalitarian, with women roughly as influential and powerful as men.[9] Karl Marx defined this socio-economic system as primitive communism.[10]

The egalitarianism typical of human hunters and gatherers is never total, but is striking when viewed in an evolutionary context. One of humanity's two closest primate relatives, chimpanzees, are anything but egalitarian, forming themselves into hierarchies that are often dominated by an alpha male. So great is the contrast with human hunter-gatherers that it is widely argued by palaeoanthropologists that resistance to being dominated was a key factor driving the evolutionary emergence of human consciousness, language, kinship and social organization.[11][12][13]

Anthropologists maintain that hunter/gatherers don't have permanent leaders; instead, the person taking the initiative at any one time depends on the task being performed.[14][15][16] In addition to social and economic equality in hunter-gatherer societies, there is often, though not always, sexual parity as well.[14] Hunter-gatherers are often grouped together based on kinship and band (or tribe) membership.[17] Postmarital residence among hunter-gatherers tends to be matrilocal, at least initially.[18] Young mothers can enjoy childcare support from their own mothers, who continue living nearby in the same camp.[19] The systems of kinship and descent among human hunter-gatherers were relatively flexible, although there is evidence that early human kinship in general tended to be matrilineal.[20]

It is easy for Western-educated scholars to fall into the trap of viewing hunter-gatherer social and sexual arrangements in the light of Western values.[editorializing] One common arrangement is the sexual division of labour, with women doing most of the gathering, while men concentrate on big game hunting. It might be imagined that this arrangement oppresses women, keeping them in the domestic sphere. However, according to some observers, hunter-gatherer women would not understand this interpretation. Since childcare is collective, with every baby having multiple mothers and male carers, the domestic sphere is not atomised or privatised but an empowering place to be.[citation needed] In all hunter-gatherer societies, women appreciate the meat brought back to camp by men. An illustrative account is Megan Biesele's study of the southern African Ju/'hoan, 'Women Like Meat'.[21] Recent archaeological research suggests that the sexual division of labor was the fundamental organisational innovation that gave Homo sapiens the edge over the Neanderthals, allowing our ancestors to migrate from Africa and spread across the globe.[22]

To this day, most hunter-gatherers have a symbolically structured sexual division of labour.[23] However, it is true that in a small minority of cases, women hunt the same kind of quarry as men, sometimes doing so alongside men. The best-known example are the Aeta people of the Philippines. According to one study, "About 85% of Philippine Aeta women hunt, and they hunt the same quarry as men. Aeta women hunt in groups and with dogs, and have a 31% success rate as opposed to 17% for men. Their rates are even better when they combine forces with men: mixed hunting groups have a full 41% success rate among the Aeta."[15] Among the Ju'/hoansi people of Namibia, women help men track down quarry.[24] Women in the Australian Martu also primarily hunt small animals like lizards to feed their children and maintain relations with other women.[25]


A 19th century engraving of an Indigenous Australian encampment.
At the 1966 "Man the Hunter" conference, anthropologists Richard Borshay Lee and Irven DeVore suggested that egalitarianism was one of several central characteristics of nomadic hunting and gathering societies because mobility requires minimization of material possessions throughout a population. Therefore, no surplus of resources can be accumulated by any single member. Other characteristics Lee and DeVore proposed were flux in territorial boundaries as well as in demographic composition.

At the same conference, Marshall Sahlins presented a paper entitled, "Notes on the Original Affluent Society", in which he challenged the popular view of hunter-gatherers lives as "solitary, poor, nasty, brutish and short," as Thomas Hobbes had put it in 1651. According to Sahlins, ethnographic data indicated that hunter-gatherers worked far fewer hours and enjoyed more leisure than typical members of industrial society, and they still ate well. Their "affluence" came from the idea that they were satisfied with very little in the material sense.[26] Later, in 1996, Ross Sackett performed two distinct meta-analyses to empirically test Sahlin's view. The first of these studies looked at 102 time-allocation studies, and the second one analyzed 207 energy-expenditure studies. Sackett found that adults in foraging and horticultural societies work, on average, about 6.5 hours a day, where as people in agricultural and industrial societies work on average 8.8 hours a day.[27]

Recent research also indicates that the life-expectancy of hunter-gatherers is surprisingly high.[28]

Mutual exchange and sharing of resources (i.e., meat gained from hunting) are important in the economic systems of hunter-gatherer societies.[17] Therefore, these societies can be described as based on a "gift economy."
 
Cosmic trigger

"The egalitarianism typical of human hunters and gatherers is never total,"

I rest my case.

Regards
DL
 
That may mean something very different from your case. Such as someone taking control of the situation when they have more skill only to drop back in the group when that situation is resolved. But if you are only trying to win an argument well then by god you won.

Unfortunately I've been unable to find the documentary I watched. I think it's quite likely in early human history there were small egalitarian tribes. You have yet to show conclusively that they never existed. So go ahead and rest your case but I'm unconvinced.

Just did a search on rainforest peoples and found some current egalitarian tribes .

The Penan's society is egalitarian and non-hierarchical. Traditionally, they depend entirely on the forest for their existence, their culture and their beliefs.

There are more too and you can read about them here.
http://www.rainforestinfo.org.au/background/people.htm

and more
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mbuti_people
 
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That may mean something very different from your case. Such as someone taking control of the situation when they have more skill only to drop back in the group when that situation is resolved. But if you are only trying to win an argument well then by god you won.

Unfortunately I've been unable to find the documentary I watched. I think it's quite likely in early human history there were small egalitarian tribes. You have yet to show conclusively that they never existed. So go ahead and rest your case but I'm unconvinced.

Just did a search on rainforest peoples and found some current egalitarian tribes .


There are more too and you can read about them here.
http://www.rainforestinfo.org.au/background/people.htm

and more
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mbuti_people

I will check them out.

I do not lay down in arguments but I am here to lose them and learn something new more that win them and give others the great pleasure of learning something new.

Regards
DL
 
C_t, you would probably find the novel 'Sapiens: a brief history of human kind' a good read. It discusses in part why we have the patriarchal and hierarchical society we have with references to prehistory. Fascinating book in general.
 
Hmm. I mean, it is a bit hard for me to see a group thrive without a leader per se, but in arguing that they exist may not be too hard.

I think it a real possibility that a group with mutually disagreeing strengths and weaknesses could form and thrive without designating a chief.


I saw that book somewhere not too long ago Willow! Will have to read it now.

After I'm dome with Atlas Shrugged.
 
Good attitude.

Thanks.

Regards
DL


Hmm. I mean, it is a bit hard for me to see a group thrive without a leader per se, but in arguing that they exist may not be too hard.

I think it a real possibility that a group with mutually disagreeing strengths and weaknesses could form and thrive without designating a chief.


I saw that book somewhere not too long ago Willow! Will have to read it now.

After I'm dome with Atlas Shrugged.

I think it would be quite hard to show that humans can and have lived without a hierarchy.

We are mammals. All mammals have alpha males or female leading the groups.

Groups of humans begin with a male and female begin with males dominating the females in all but a few cases.

Those few are still hierarchical and just have the female as the alpha. I have only heard of about six such tribes. Males generally dominate.

Living in hierarchies is what is normal for humans and that is conformed by just looking at our history.

Be it a matriarchal or patriarchal tribe, it will have a hierarchy.

Regards
DL
 
Again it depends on the circumstances. Humans have on occasion lived egalitarian. I'm sure their were alpa types but they choose to express it in other ways beyond leadership. It's certainly not prevalent but it seems to happen. Likely due to population density and resources.
 
Again it depends on the circumstances. Humans have on occasion lived egalitarian. I'm sure their were alpa types but they choose to express it in other ways beyond leadership. It's certainly not prevalent but it seems to happen. Likely due to population density and resources.

There is no egalitarianism in a species whose instincts create an alpha male or female.

We have never had a communistic type of flat demographic pyramid for any human group or tribe.

Human nature will not allow it. The cream always rises to the top. So to speak.

Regards
DL
 
What point are you trying to make here? I've showed some egalitarian tribes to exist. That fact that no two humans are completely equal is accepted. However within that framework humans can work together without structured hierarchies. If you just want to make the point that someone will always be stronger and better than another then I agree but if you want to contend that in no way can humans live without structured hierarchies then the evidence is otherwise. However these egalitarian societies are a tiny minority and are for all extents and purposes on their way out. Big Brother FTW.
 
Depends on what you mean by Evil. Are we malevolent when we watch MMA? Are we malevolent when we hunt? Hedonistic? Are you asking are we inherently 'bad' or inherently evil to it's strict definition: which, we are.
 
What point are you trying to make here? I've showed some egalitarian tribes to exist. That fact that no two humans are completely equal is accepted. However within that framework humans can work together without structured hierarchies. If you just want to make the point that someone will always be stronger and better than another then I agree but if you want to contend that in no way can humans live without structured hierarchies then the evidence is otherwise. However these egalitarian societies are a tiny minority and are for all extents and purposes on their way out. Big Brother FTW.

You say the evidence is otherwise but nothing you have shown so far is evidence.

You have not even given a name of a tribe or group for me to have a look at.

I do not doubt that you have heard something but I like to make sure before changing my view.

Even the wiki link you gave to show no hierarch had this to say.

"The Bambuti tend to follow a patrilineal descent system. That is a hierarchy.

Regards
DL
 
From the link I gave you

I picket this up quickly from wiki.

"half have been converted to Islam, even if only superficially"

Submission to Islam is placing yourself below an imam and that is a hierarchy.

We are hierarchical mammals by nature and I still do not know of any mammals who break that hierarchical mold.

Regards
DL
 
Christ, usually I hate discussing morals but everytime someone brings it up it's like I learn something more about ethics.

They go hand in glove.

Try discussing morals with theists and see how quickly they run from you.

Regards
DL
 
I picket this up quickly from wiki.

"half have been converted to Islam, even if only superficially"

Submission to Islam is placing yourself below an imam and that is a hierarchy.

We are hierarchical mammals by nature and I still do not know of any mammals who break that hierarchical mold.

Regards
DL

And yet I presented evidence otherwise. Humans are capable of it under certain conditions. That seems evident. You don't have to accept it however.

My opinion is that we are not inherently evil but rather weak and fear driven. When conditions exist where fear and weakness are not prominent due to circumstance we can work together in peace without leaders. We can lead ourselves in concert with others. I do believe however that modern man has lost the battle with fear and weakness and it will very likely mean our end along with much of the current life on earth.
 
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