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  • P&S Moderators: Xorkoth | Madness

What is human nature? v. And are we innately evil?

Kittycat5 said:
Dont go all Douglass Adams on me, Xorkoth. :)

I thought about dolphins. Its just so hard to judge anything of real value from their communication ability because we dont fully understand it. I am open to these things, would welcome them actually, but havent seen enough proof.
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Well if it's an unknown then it's hard to claim our superiority.
 
Cosmic Trigger said:
Put just a little survival pressure on a human group and you will for the most part see altruism disappear outside the family or group. So what is it's real worth? Almost all animals will protect their offspring even if it means their death. So it seems to me that altruism is a pretty flimsy attribute. In fact I predict we will see it's lack of value to humans as global warming really gets up and running.

Many species have a unique evolutionary path in some aspect so...

It's interesting that when well fed many carnivores become gentle and friendly. It may be the advent of farming more than anything that contributes to altruism.
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Thats why I said we dont have those pressures to any degree that other animals do.
 
Yeah, well we arent excused completely from nature. But right now, we are pretty far away from it. I can only speak through the mouth of a human and even if we are ignorant to some things, think it is clear we have in many ways transcended from other animals. I dont buy any of the bullshit religious reasons as to why and agree we may be our own downfall, but we were the lucky recipients of the rarest evolutionary leaps.
 
We are fluid verbs, not static nouns.

No thing is of any one essential nature, but an abiding flow between extremes of one unity that we express as duality.

Given conditions will bring out attributes within the overall arching template of behaviors, depending on a person's upbringing, familial and social conditioning.
 
Kitty why lucky? Do you also assume we are more content than the rest of the animal kingdom? Personally I think it's at best a crap shoot. I see a lot of misery on these boards and in the world and it doesn't seem to be getting better. I'm 63 and been around long enough to notice that people seem much less content than I was in the 60s-70s. Humans likely suffer in ways most wild animals never come close to.

Personally I'd choose to be a turkey vulture or a Coyote.
 
Cosmic Trigger said:
Put just a little survival pressure on a human group and you will for the most part see altruism disappear outside the family or group. So what is it's real worth? Almost all animals will protect their offspring even if it means their death. So it seems to me that altruism is a pretty flimsy attribute. In fact I predict we will see it's lack of value to humans as global warming really gets up and running.

Many species have a unique evolutionary path in some aspect so...

It's interesting that when well fed many carnivores become gentle and friendly. It may be the advent of farming more than anything that contributes to altruism.
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i spent some time in a maximum security prison - would you call that hard times? it restored my faith in the basic goodness of humankind. one of my bunkmates ran store, meaning he bought extra from the commissary then resold it through the week. he took the profits and gave it to people who had no one on the outside. my first day in the work dorm, which was bitch ass cold, a guy i never met gay me a thermal top. i'm diabetic, so i went to the nurse's station every afternoon for insulin, then straight to the cafe for dinner. when my dorm went later in the evening, a gave my meal to a guy who had nothing. i could have sold it. those acts of kindness created our group - that's how you know you're dealing with solid guys. those men would have fought for me, lied for me, covered for me, gone to solitary for me, and me for them. in county one of my friends got cut off from his money for a month, so i bought him a few soups every week. when they moved me to the sorting prison, the second day i saw him there on a construction crew. i was new, so my money hadn't been transfered and i couldn't get anything from the store - but that night i got a bag full of goodies delivered, right past the guards. i'm a skinny intellectual homosexual buddhist, but no one ever stole from me, harassed me, fucked with me, nothing - other than the guards, shining flashlights up my ass, but i survived that shit, and i'm mean the mf terrordorm, niggas walkin around with bloodstained machetes like its fuckin RWANDA up in that bitch, cause i'm a GOOD PERSON and rock solid trustworthy. i studied arabic with the nation of islam, and once compared tatts with an MS-13 assassino. all by following the path of the buddha.
 
I feel like its hard to seperate the self from one's actions. In that sense, I don't know if humans can be altruistic.

tantric said:
huh? interestingly, one of the most studied species for altruism is the vampire bat
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Altriusm is the performing of actions for others which do not benefit oneself. Providing food for another could be seen that way, but it does benefit the provider for times when they don't have resources at hand. Its not really altruism which can be defined as selflessness.

It also is pretty selfless though...

okay, i cited a ref from a peer reviewed journal. i have no idea what you mean by 'structurally incapable' or 'flags'.
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I'm also not sure why I wrote the comment about flags. Or zoos. But, by structurally incapable- animals are generally not thought to have a refined sense of self (jury is out). Without that, isn't it impossible to do anything selflessly?

I was tripping and got stuck on semantic weirdness. :\

Can I say that that is a brilliant source? I wish someone would demonstrate altruism by regurgitating blood for me. :D
 
From wikipedia:

Alex the Parrot said:
"Alex sometimes practiced words when he was alone".
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alex_(parrot)

"When he was tired of being tested, he would say "Wanna go back", meaning he wanted to go back to his cage, and in general, he would request where he wanted to be taken by saying "Wanna go...", protest if he was taken to a different place, and sit quietly when taken to his preferred spot."

Something beautiful about that. :)
 
tantric said:
i spent some time in a maximum security prison - would you call that hard times? it restored my faith in the basic goodness of humankind. one of my bunkmates ran store, meaning he bought extra from the commissary then resold it through the week. he took the profits and gave it to people who had no one on the outside. my first day in the work dorm, which was bitch ass cold, a guy i never met gay me a thermal top. i'm diabetic, so i went to the nurse's station every afternoon for insulin, then straight to the cafe for dinner. when my dorm went later in the evening, a gave my meal to a guy who had nothing. i could have sold it. those acts of kindness created our group - that's how you know you're dealing with solid guys. those men would have fought for me, lied for me, covered for me, gone to solitary for me, and me for them. in county one of my friends got cut off from his money for a month, so i bought him a few soups every week. when they moved me to the sorting prison, the second day i saw him there on a construction crew. i was new, so my money hadn't been transfered and i couldn't get anything from the store - but that night i got a bag full of goodies delivered, right past the guards. i'm a skinny intellectual homosexual buddhist, but no one ever stole from me, harassed me, fucked with me, nothing - other than the guards, shining flashlights up my ass, but i survived that shit, and i'm mean the mf terrordorm, niggas walkin around with bloodstained machetes like its fuckin RWANDA up in that bitch, cause i'm a GOOD PERSON and rock solid trustworthy. i studied arabic with the nation of islam, and once compared tatts with an MS-13 assassino. all by following the path of the buddha.
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I'm not arguing altruism doesn't exist. How many people are not like this guy who helped? How many are in that prison due to horrific life circumstances? How many got their by not being altruistic? I play the percentages. When survival pressure increase then altruism is often the first thing to go. This fine man who helped you has an excess. What of the man who feels he doesn't have enough to survive? Those types are increasing it seems and as population grows and environmental pressures increase what have we seen overall? I've been looking. I'm not seeing altruism increase. Not to mention those that have obscene excess and share nothing. I think the next 50 years will show us all and I don't expect to see humans becoming more altruistic. I admit I have a dim view of human nature overall. I don't trust our species to ultimately take care of each other. The evidence is mounting backing this IMO. Sad.
 
you are ignoring the social animal. a solitary human is meat. *at best* a highly trained human in peak shape can survive alone, but will spend huge amounts of energy doing so...with little left for reproduction. stop seeing the man. look - see the web of mutualism with our crops and animals. it is no different from bees and flowers. we became more than just the naked ape when we evolved relationships with other species, allowing us to create, well everything. one of those naked apes found an orphaned animal, and instead of eating it, raised it. another found a sprout and nurtured it. doing these things feels good because we're evolved to do them. it's how we became us. altruism allows us to create relationships that become mutualism - the best kind of interaction, one that benefits both partners.

as for your dim view, i see this partnership expanding to include all life on earth. humans will eventually domesticate everything - which may mean having tailored jungles to breathe for the planet, but 'sall good. when that's done, we will fulfill our true destiny - we will carry mother gaia to the dead worlds and make them green.
 
What you just posted hardly signifies altruism IMO. But rather opportunistic dominance.

As to your last paragraph I completely think you are dreaming. I think our true destiny is the same one that every species that has ever lived has.
 
yup, survive, procreate, and pass on knowledge via genetic code or language based behaviors
 
Cosmic Trigger said:
Kitty why lucky? Do you also assume we are more content than the rest of the animal kingdom? Personally I think it's at best a crap shoot. I see a lot of misery on these boards and in the world and it doesn't seem to be getting better. I'm 63 and been around long enough to notice that people seem much less content than I was in the 60s-70s. Humans likely suffer in ways most wild animals never come close to.

Personally I'd choose to be a turkey vulture or a Coyote.
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Because we can sit here and talk to people from all over the world and share ideas via devices some of our species developed. Because I can get in a metal box that some other humans figured out how to make move and drive to a wooden or brick box yet other men built and buy food some clever humans figured out how to keep fresh and not have to hunt or be hunted. Because if I am injured, I can be taken to yet more smart humans that can heal me and not have to worry about being left behind by my group or preyed upon easily.

Perhaps you are correct in your pessimism of our future, but it will be our ability to solve these and other problems that may be our saving grace. If the elephants, or dolphins, or parrots have anything to say about how we may save our planet, let them speak up, as they will perish too. But I'm not holding my breath on that. I still hold out hope that we and we alone can.

Coyotes are frequently killed and have their prey stolen by wolves and turkey vultures feed primarily on scavenged carrion. Im not so sure content is the word I would use when describing either.
 
I never said they were content. The difference as I see it is they aren't overthinking anything. They are not prone to the many stress diseases of thinking that humans have.

The reason I admire the vulture is it's one of the only carnivores that doesn't need to kill to survive. And I've spent many an envious hour watching them soaring on the thermals without expending any physical effort. Seemingly placidly viewing the chaos below. Totally anthropomorphic on my part but that's how it looks from my perspective. I'm sure they don't think about it much. lol
 
I seem to recall someone saying, "When you think about the vast ways humans can experience suffering, we aren't really that lucky."

Whichever one of you said that has kept me awake ever since.
 
Cosmic Trigger said:
To eventually go extinct. Replaced by whatever.
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you understand that a 'species' is a thought construct, right? 99.9999% of extinctions are caused when the organism evolves into a new species. live itself hasn't stopped, and life almost never evolves into nonlife.
 
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