What is addiction and what is dependence?

[knock]

I know you didn't say anything about psychiatrists, I wasn't responding solely to your post, partially yes but also just generally to the idea that we can look up a definition of addiction and be satisfied with that.

And when I said "Socially. By preference, democratically" I mean that wants and needs are defined socially; by the dominant culture as you say, but it would be preferable to define them democratically, i.e. that we should all have some say about what is a need and what is a want. I wasn't saying that that is currently the case. It would be preferable if the dominant culture was democratic. For what appear to me as obvious reasons.

And just to 100% clear when I use the word democratic I do not mean it in the sense of liberal democracy, or parliamentary democracy. I mean it in the sense of a federated global democracy of informed, free, human beings.

 

[StoneHappyMonday]

I just tend to see physical withdrawals as needs, implying more necessary I guess, because the body, if not served correctly, packs up.

Psychological withdrawals, which rely on our mental state and consciousness, are almost paradoxically more complicated to deal with even though the definition may be a want (implying we do have some sort of direct conscious control over this). That's all ironic because psychological withdrawals from addiction are the far harder bit to overcome, despite our apparently having more choice in these matters.

Anyway, the want/need dichotomy is the best explanation of addiction I've come up with.

 

[Eveleivibe]

Pretty much yes.

I'm also saying that physical dependence on a drug will lead the dependent user to exhibit certain behaviour - taking the drug repeatedly even though they know it's not in their long-term best interests. That is also the dictionary definition of the term "addiction". We can probably agree that a "drug addict" is a person that appears to show an inability to stop using a drug. From that we could extrapolate that addiction is the condition where that a drug addict is labelled as "having".

I actually think drug "addiction" is probably best seen as social phenomenon. It's a term used to stigmatise people and behaviours. Smoking wasn't seen as an addiction until quite recently, at which point there was this huge movement in society to stigmatise smoking. I think calling it a disease is also stigmatising. These terms all focus on the individual and how something is wrong with them. Psychiatrists can't treat social problems, so behaviours that appear "problematic" are analysed as psychological or biological phenomena.

That is quite interesting. I never knew that smoking was only recently viewed as an addiction. I know that smoking was always accepted n that people often would give people a cigarette in order to 'calm / relax' them.

I was looking at a drug in terms of taking it as a medication n experiencing adverse affects as a consequence of stopping that drug. This happens with antidepressants, blood pressure medication and so forth - they are taking periodically (per day) and yet are not considered "addicting" because people take them regularly n experience withdrawal affects whne stopping them. Yet there is, in my opinion, a misconception that suboxone is "addicting" because adverse affects are also experience on stopping.

To use my personal experience as an example:
When I was "addicted" to codeine I would obsess over it, I had to HAVE it, there was a HUGE psychological attachment to it as well as the physical attachment (ie withdrawal affects), missing a dose with NOT an option and I had to have AS MUCH IN ME AS POSSIBLE!!!! And I would NEVER take as prescribed. I felt like similar to if I was losing a loved one Suboxone, I take as prescribed, I don't obsess over it, I have actually forgotten to take it for a few hours with no big deal and NEVER have an desire to take more. There is not "relationship." with suboxone if that makes sense.

That's my own personal experience so please feel free to say if you disagree with this. I am just trying to illustrate how I interpret the distinction between addiction and physical dependence.

 

[knock]

I just tend to see physical withdrawals as needs, implying more necessary I guess, because the body, if not served correctly, packs up.

Psychological withdrawals, which rely on our mental state and consciousness, are almost paradoxically more complicated to deal with even though the definition may be a want (implying we do have some sort of direct conscious control over this). That's all ironic because psychological withdrawals from addiction are the far harder bit to overcome, despite our apparently having more choice in these matters.

Anyway, the want/need dichotomy is the best explanation of addiction I've come up with.

Well I think it's an explanation with merit, but it's open to the argument that people can "beat drug addictions" so clearly they don't "need the drug" But a person's ability or inability to "beat their addiction" is the result of a very complex function.

I've been using GBL pretty regularly over the last year. An outside observer might say I was addicted, because I looked forward to my GBL dose and when I had the opportunity to use it I would normally take it But now I know my neighbours can hear me scream, I will modify my behaviour. I didn't have any last night, and I don't intend to have any tonight. It's in my mind that I can probably just moderate my use of GBL so I don't pass out. Up till yesterday I didn't think it was affecting anyone else. Am I addicted? I don't know. I do know that if I was happier with my life conditions I wouldn't feel the need to lose myself in oblivion on a regular basis. I know that after spending two weeks with my family, I have had a bit of a blow out in the last few days as a means of escape from all the realities of family life, which I find quite difficult to cope with :D

That is quite interesting. I never knew that smoking was only recently viewed as an addiction. I know that smoking was always accepted n that people often would give people a cigarette in order to 'calm / relax' them.

When I said "Smoking wasn't seen as an addiction until quite recently" I was simplifying the reality, mainly to make my point about social stigma. How something is viewed depends on who is doing the viewing It's only recently been widely accepted that it's a problematic habit, and we don't call habits "addictions" if they are not problematic. We are dependent on food, but we don't see that as an addiction, because food use is not problematic. People have been condemning smoking as a habit for as long as people have been smoking. And of course what is problematic is also subjective.

I was looking at a drug in terms of taking it as a medication n experiencing adverse affects as a consequence of stopping that drug. This happens with antidepressants, blood pressure medication and so forth - they are taking periodically (per day) and yet are not considered "addicting" because people take them regularly n experience withdrawal affects whne stopping them. Yet there is, in my opinion, a misconception that suboxone is "addicting" because adverse affects are also experience on stopping.

This is why dependency is a clearer term, it's not loaded with judgement. I'm thinking back to my time using cocaine. It was a habit, nothing bad happened if I stopped so I wasn't physically dependent but I was psychologically dependent, it was essential to have cocaine on a night out. But, nothing bad happened if we couldn't get any. So what's that? Was I addicted? I don't know. I suppose I don't think addiction as a concept maps all that well to the reality of regular drug use.

To use my personal experience as an example:
When I was "addicted" to codeine I would obsess over it, I had to HAVE it, there was a HUGE psychological attachment to it as well as the physical attachment (ie withdrawal affects), missing a dose with NOT an option and I had to have AS MUCH IN ME AS POSSIBLE!!!! And I would NEVER take as prescribed. I felt like similar to if I was losing a loved one Suboxone, I take as prescribed, I don't obsess over it, I have actually forgotten to take it for a few hours with no big deal and NEVER have an desire to take more. There is not "relationship." with suboxone if that makes sense.

That's my own personal experience so please feel free to say if you disagree with this. I am just trying to illustrate how I interpret the distinction between addiction and physical dependence.

I don't disagree with you, there is clearly a difference between your previous codeine use and your suboxone use. Different drugs have different effects on different people. It makes sense that you see your previous codeine use as an addiction and your current suboxone use as not an addiction.

I don't think I've ever experienced addiction in the way you describe it - except to nicotine But I am certain that people would look at my general drug use and say that I'm addicted. I am dependent on kratom because without it I feel like shit, but I don't feel the need to shovel it into my body, I just take my daily dose, like a medicine. On the other hand I do positively enjoy it, it gives me a nice feeling that is over and above "baseline". I don't know what that says about me. Part of the reason I take drugs is that I find living in contemporary society dysphoric, and contemporary society is a fairly new arrangement in which people find themselves.

 

[StoneHappyMonday]

People beat a drug addiction but that may mean overcoming the desire for the drug. Need isn't 100% and undefeatable. I think it's undoubtable that a drug may create a physical need, but that isn't to say that need may not be overcome. Needs can be temporary.

Wants tend to be slightly more permanent and difficult to overcome. Not impossible, merely more difficult. And interesting for me because as stated, it implies our 'choice' over such 'decisions' handicapping us over more 'natural' ways of sorting our well-being out.

In short, our ability to apparently choose over our well-being may not be such a positive. Because we are capable of making wrong choices and being 'weak' willed.

 

[knock]

In short, our ability to apparently choose over our well-being may not be such a positive. Because we are capable of making wrong choices and being 'weak' willed.

I can agree with this... If I was only capable of making good choices which worked in favour of my well-being, then things would be a lot easier

But sometimes what's good for our physical well being and what's good for our mental well being do not coincide. And very often what seems good for us today is not so good for us in 10 years time, and is even worse for the human beings that are not yet born. The human condition is not a simple one.

 

[StoneHappyMonday]

But sometimes what's good for our physical well being and what's good for our mental well being do not coincide.

That's an interesting proposition I shall have to think about. Early thoughts are you're right which makes this bit

And that's good for us today isn't good in 10 years time/QUOTE]

Even more pertinent.

 

[Eveleivibe]

Knock,
I liked when you referred to food. I never once thought of food and yet, apart from fluid, it's the one thing we mostly 'depend' on to survive. We need it to function and keep alive, how there are debates as to whether there's a things as "food addiction." If addiction is "a need" well food and fluids are also a "need" but we consume food and fluids in moderation, sometimes going overboard like at parties, Christmas time etc but mostly we regularly eat food but don't obsess over it. Some who may be considered a "food addict" which consume a lot more food than normal and would start consuming more and more food similar to a drug addict and an alcoholic. With saying that, if a person is really hungry and has no way of knowing where the next amount of food is coming from they may start to "obsess" over getting more food but this also does not make them "addicted" to the food. Similar to how I don't obsess over my suboxone yet when I was told a few weeks ago that "I would have wait until 2 pm" I was stressed and started obsessing about getting my script similar to how I worry about other things if I do not receive them when meant to and are worrying about going without. So in a way "obsessing" doesn't necessarily imply that a person is "addicted" so it really is tricky to know the difference betwee addiction and dependence when a lot of things are considered.

But sometimes what's good for our physical well being and what's good for our mental well being do not coincide. And very often what seems good for us today is not so good for us in 10 years time, and is even worse for the human beings that are not yet born. The human condition is not a simple one.

agreed

Evey

 

[wcote]

All I know is neither of them is a diesese!

It always gets to me when you here the NA / AA cabal going about addiction being a diesese, cancer is a disease. Addiction / dependance is a psychological problem not a disease FFS!

 

[knock]

All I know is neither of them is a disease!

It always gets to me when you here the NA / AA cabal going about addiction being a disease, cancer is a disease.

Yes I said that too. I really dislike the disease / illness model. There is a reason for it being called a disease, though. Anything that interferes with a worker's ability to work is an illness or a disability! That's because the only systems we have in place to restore workers to good "working" order are medical professionals. They may come as psychologists, counsellors, etc, but they are all treating our illnesses.

Addiction / dependance is a psychological problem not a disease FFS!

The thing is, who decides it's a problem? The answer is, our dominant culture decides if it's a problem and it does so using the criterion: "does it interfere with your ability to work?" Thus, caffeine addicts are not treated for caffeine addiction because there is no need to treat them, they are not ill. Caffeine doesn't interfere with a workers ability to work, in fact it enhances it. Hence why coffee machines are available in all workplaces.

Supporting this view is the fact that the only people who are allowed not to work are the rich and the ill/disabled.

 

[ColtDan]

Addiction is when you have a physical or mental need for something, a MUST if you like.

Anything else is a want. Not an addiction.

Addiction and dependence are the same thing. Habitual use however is not the same as addiction, unless it fulfills the "need" not "want" rule.

This

All I know is neither of them is a diesese!

It always gets to me when you here the NA / AA cabal going about addiction being a diesese, cancer is a disease. Addiction / dependance is a psychological problem not a disease FFS!

Couldnt agree more. diesese... what a crock of shit

 

[wcote]

I would say its a problem when an addiction / dependence starts to negatively affect a person, to what degree I think that is down to the individual.

 

[knock]

I would say its a problem when an addiction / dependence starts to negatively affect a person, to what degree I think that is down to the individual.

I know you're an individualist, I consider this a mistake. The fact is that human beings have no option but to share the world, and therefore our activities are each others' business to some extent. For example, I thought that my GBL habit was affecting no-one but myself but then I found out it was frightening my neighbours, so I'm toning it down.

 

[Scire]

There are many sides to addiction and self-reinforcing behaviour. Would you say a gambling addict is dependant on gambling? What if they make a living gambling? A drug can be physically addictive, I've felt that with AH-7921, but the drug that captured me more than any other was methoxetamine, which, as far as I know, isn't that physically addictive.

 

[wcote]

By negatively affecting a person this means the impact it is having on other people.

Not sure how to but this, I agree with you and I should have explained my point further.

 

[knock]

By negatively affecting a person this means the impact it is having on other people.

Not sure how to but this, I agree with you and I should have explained my point further.

:D OK no disagreement then.

 

[knock]

I have a lot more to say on this topic, even more than I've said already, which seems a bit indecent, but there you go.

Fortunately I want to get to sleep for a few hours so you all have some respite.

 

[StoneHappyMonday]

While we're at it, what is the difference between allergy and intolerance?

 

[F.U.B.A.R.]

For example, I thought that my GBL habit was affecting no-one but myself but then I found out it was frightening my neighbours, so I'm toning it down.

Hahahahaha!! Please elaborate, it sounds like a tale worth sharing

 

[ColtDan]

Screaming his head off if i recall

Knock get yourself one of these