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  • EADD Moderators: Shambles

What is addiction and what is dependence?

Sorry evel I can't quite remember what your own view is on what you see your relationship with bupe is?

I'm interested do you think its an either or? Would you agree that it is a mixture of the two?

Don't mean to turn on you as I say I'm just interested.
 
Sorry MDB it wasn't trying to be judgemental or anything. I was just interested because a lot of people think they are addicted to bupe when really they are only dependent on it (as is the case for antidepressants etc). And because people often get confused bupernorphine is getting a bad name of being highly addictive when really it is not the case. Problaby a debate for another thread n I apologise for going off topic. I was just curious to know what you think with going through this currently, that's all.

Wcote. I'm not addicted to bupe. I know addiction n it's so very different. In fact when my cat passed away I forgot to take it until 3 pm. I also forget now n then to take it straight away as I'm on the Herbalife diet (I don't believe in diets but I'm trying one as an experient). There's NO WAY I'd have forgotten to take codeine - it was on my mind 24/7.

Anyway sorry for subject change was just interested n I think asking that question elsewhere may have looked silly.

Evey x
 
I don't get how you don't see your physical addiction to bupe as well..... an addiction. You stop taking bupe tomorrow you will go into WD. Because you are physically addicted to it.

You could say perhaps you are mentally dependant on bupe?
 
I don't get how you don't see your physical addiction to bupe as well..... an addiction. You stop taking bupe tomorrow you will go into WD. Because you are physically addicted to it.

You could say perhaps you are mentally dependant on bupe?

I don't understand that either, but the plain fact of the matter is that the word addiction does not have one universally agreed definition. I'm sure that there are well-defined medical definitions but different countries medical organisations have different diagnostic criteria.

Dependence, tolerance and withdrawal are more clearly defined, I think, but even then you will have disagreements between american and british doctors. Actually scratch that I'm sure they would agree.

I suspect that medically dependence and addiction are synonyms, that there is a preference to avoid the term addiction in the US but no such preference here (NHS website uses the term addiction saying it is the "need" to take drugs, I couldn't find that definition in my OED :?)

Then you have AA and NA who have their own non-scientific definitions of the words. I'm sure other anti-drug groups also confuse the terminology.
 
There is a difference between addiction n physcal dependence. Look it up. For instance people are physically dependent on antidepressants but not addicted to them - there's no mental obsession n people don't have to have more n more to keep having affects.

EDIT: knock I just read the last piece of your post n I see where this disagreement has come from. I found this information from Americans: Google, American addicts etc.
 
To say suboxone isn't addictive is just plan ignorant and childish.
Of corse suboxone is addictive...if in doubt, stop taking it.
Drs. like to use semantics to con addicts into thinking it's different than other opiates. It's a sales pitch. It's the same as any other opiate and you become addicted to it...period.
 
There is a difference between addiction n physcal dependence. Look it up. For instance people are physically dependent on antidepressants but not addicted to them - there's no mental obsession n people don't have to have more n more to keep having affects.

Look it up where?

the NHS actually has competing definitions on their own website.

NHS said:

So on one page it's a need.

NHS said:

On another page it's a state of lack of control :?


The Oxford English Dictionary suggests it's synonymous with dependence in this (drug) context:

OED said:
The state of being addicted to a habit or pursuit; esp. the state of dependence on a drug to the extent it cannot be withdrawn without adverse effects

addicted
OED said:
doing or using something, esp. a drug, as a habit or compulsively

Medical terms are not statically defined.

american stuff said:
The APA has gone back and forth between use of the terms “addiction” and “dependence” to describe alcohol and other drug problems, noted researcher Stanton Peele, Ph.D. “Every book I’ve written has the word “addiction” in the title, so I’m glad the term will now be recognized,” wrote Peele in the Huffington Post on Feb. 11. “But the change back may make us wonder whether we will have to reconsider every twenty years or so whether it is more beneficial or harmful to use a word loaded with cultural meanings (“addiction”), or a more neutral term (“dependence”).”

In fact, “dependence” made it into the DSM-IV by just a single vote, O’Brien noted in a May 2006 editorial in the American Journal of Psychiatry co-authored by Nora Volkow, M.D., director of the National Institute on Drug Abuse, and T-K Li, M.D., then-head of the National Institute on Alcohol Abuse and Alcoholism.

“Experience over the past two decades has demonstrated that this decision was a serious mistake,” the trio wrote. “The term ‘dependence’ has traditionally been used to describe ‘physical dependence,’ which refers to the adaptations that result in withdrawal symptoms when drugs, such as alcohol and heroin, are discontinued. Physical dependence is also observed with certain psychoactive medications, such as antidepressants and beta-blockers. However, the adaptations associated with drug withdrawal are distinct from the adaptations that result in addiction, which refers to the loss of control over the intense urges to take the drug even at the expense of adverse consequences.”




From "Addiction Today", announcement of a "new definition of addiction":
THE LATEST DEFINITION OF ADDICTION

The American Society of Addiction Medicine has released a new definition of addiction, highlighting that it is a chronic brain disorder and not simply a behavioural problem involving too much alcohol, drugs, gambling or sex.

Four years of work with 80 experts opened the door to ASAM’s first official position that outward behaviours are manifestations of an underlying disease.


Short Definition of Addiction.
Addiction is a primary, chronic disease of brain reward, motivation, memory and related circuitry. Dysfunction in these circuits leads to characteristic biological, psychological, social and spiritual manifestations. This is reflected in an individual pathologically pursuing reward and/or relief by substance use and other behaviours.
Addiction is characterised by inability to consistently abstain, impairment in behavioural control, craving, diminished recognition of significant problems with one’s behaviours and interpersonal relationships, and a dysfunctional emotional response. Like other chronic diseases, addiction often involves cycles of relapse and remission. Without treatment or engagement in recovery activities, addiction is progressive and can result in disability or premature death.
 
Antidepressants, physical dependence, and semantics
Posted by on January 1, 2009
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Antidepressants are a very useful class of medications. With the introduction of the first modern antidepressant, fluoxetine (Prozac) in the U.S. in the late 1980′s, the pharmacologic treatment of depression has undergone a revolution (and an enduring controversy). Older classes of antidepressants were often effective, but came with a host of unpleasant toxicities—MAOIs can lead to potentially fatal interactions with certain other drugs, and even foods, and tricyclic antidepressants, when misused, can lead to fatal overdoses. Prozac, the first of a new class of medications known as SSRIs (later followed by similar classes such as SNRI’s, etc.) appeared quite safe and effective. Side effects were minimal, and overdoses were rarely fatal. But as newer SSRIs were introduced, it became apparent that while treatment with these drugs was quite safe, stopping these drugs was not always pleasant.


The issue has to do with what is known as “antidepressant discontinuation syndrome”. When many of the newer classes of antidepressants are abruptly discontinued, there is a constellation of symptoms that many patients experience, including headache, dizziness, muscle aches, and nausea. This isn’t one of those “iffy” adverse drug events, for example when a patient treated with a statin complains of a backache and blames the drug. This is a predictable reaction to stopping or skipping a dose of medication. These drugs obviously alter brain chemistry (and not unlikely, physiologic processes in other parts of the body), and their sudden cessation causes discomfort. Moreover, resuming the medication relieves these symptoms. In other words, stopping these medications can cause a withdrawal syndrome. Why don’t we just call it that? What’s with this “discontinuation syndrome” thing?

I love going to the companies websites—it’s probably the worst possible way to find useful drug information, which makes it fun to pick over and see what patients are going to ask me later. Let’s see what the Zoloft people have to say in their FAQs:

Is Zoloft addictive?

No. In medical studies, it has been shown that Zoloft is not addictive or habit-forming.

Then, further down:

Side effects may result from stopping Zoloft particularly when abrupt.

I think I’m getting the picture here. Addiction, a negative set of behaviors that accompany some types of drug dependence, is a nasty, dirty, horrid little word. It is true that Zoloft is not addictive, in the sense that those who are dependent on it don’t normally develop negative behaviors such as seeking out the drug inappropriately, and it is also true that SSRIs don’t induce euphoric symptoms, like many addictive substances. But many tobacco and heroin addicts also have no real high anymore, and simply use to avoid withdrawal.

It is very, very bad marketing to admit that your drug causes physical dependence, and even worse if you use the “a” word. It is also difficult to prescribe a drug if the “a” word is thrown around (unless of course it’s an opiate, in which case it’s, “gimme gimme gimme now”).

But if we are honest about how we discuss these things, we need to admit that SSRIs and other newer antidepressants cause physical dependence. This dependence rarely if ever leads to negative sets of behaviors, and the withdrawal isn’t deadly (as alcohol or amphetamine withdrawal can be), but it is real, and must be figured into the clinical calculation. It almost certainly needs more study.

Let’s start using the real words for things—our patients can handle the truth.

I thought this was a interesting blog...
Personally I see no difference between dependence and addiction if you have a compulsion to take the substance every day....
 
Hiya knock,

Heres a link:

http://www.healthcentral.com/chronic-pain/coping-279488-5.html

Sorry I can't find more right now. I'm with my child at a birthday party. Will talk about this later.

Evey

I've also provided several links with conflicting definitions, and an article which lays out the fact that the word is open to interpretation and redefinition within the psychiatric profession (although there is not one single psychiatric profession, as I've also pointed out!)

I know you can provide a link to a definition to back up your understanding of the word. I'm saying you can't provide a link to the definition because there are several.

It would be useful if we could all agree on a definition but I don't know how we would achieve that. I suppose at least we now know what you mean :)

The word "addict" is also culturally loaded with negative attributes. Dependency does not have the same negative baggage, but I'm sure it's just a matter of time.
 
I understand what you're saying knock. As I said I'm at a kids party at mo to look anything up or properly read your post. I will do later. Sorry

EDIT: (BACK FROM PARTY)

Please let me get this right so I can see where you are coming at if that's ok. My argument is that suboxone does not necessarily cause 'addiction' in everyone but most often 'physical dependence' which will cause withdrawal symptoms similar to other medications such as antidepressants (obviously I am not saying that antidepressants etc have the same WDs). What you are saying in your post is; how can I argue this point if some many organisations and so forth differ on the actually definition of addiction and that before one can argue whether or not suboxone is addictive or just physically dependent, we must decide on an actuate definition. Is this correct?

no i didnt take it as judgemental i just didnt understand the difference. I still dont tbh but never mind. I'm getting off it, thats the important thing as far as im concerned. :D

Valerian and Pregabalin anyone ?

Fuck it, im taking a prega.

Hiya MDB, Sorry only just saw this. Tbh I maybe shouldn't have brought it up on here. The reason I did was that I often here that suboxone is "addictive" when it may just cause "physical dependence," and I am worried that it may STOP some people from going onto suboxone, which is an invaluable medication for some people in addiction. If it wasn't for suboxone I don't know if I would still be here today as I was taken in a lot of paracetamol / ibuprofen. yes there's cold water extraction but there's not guarantee that that takes all of the para / ibu out and when in addiction (at least for 'me' anyway) BS aside I did not want to do it as I wanted ALL the codeine. Plus for people addicted to H etc you don't know when you are going to get a bad batch there are lots of posts on here that illustrate this nicely (sorry I don't know how to do the 'click here' thing) so if these addicts go onto suboxone it is a form of harm reduction but a lot may be put off by the "addiction" label.

This was my reason for bringing this up. MDB I wish you all the success in the world with getting off suboxone n I am by no means trying to get at you or put you off, just doing as I have explained above. I hope you understand this.

MODS: please feel free to move this away from here if you feel that it may be triggering to anyone trying to withdraw I really just wanted to mention that, that's all because if a life can be saved then that's brilliant. And I am TRULY sorry if anyone I have said has offended anyone in any way as it was honestly not what I was trying to do.

Evey
 
Please let me get this right so I can see where you are coming at if that's ok. My argument is that suboxone does not necessarily cause 'addiction' in everyone but most often 'physical dependence' which will cause withdrawal symptoms similar to other medications such as antidepressants (obviously I am not saying that antidepressants etc have the same WDs). What you are saying in your post is; how can I argue this point if some many organisations and so forth differ on the actually definition of addiction and that before one can argue whether or not suboxone is addictive or just physically dependent, we must decide on an actuate definition. Is this correct?

Pretty much yes.

I'm also saying that physical dependence on a drug will lead the dependent user to exhibit certain behaviour - taking the drug repeatedly even though they know it's not in their long-term best interests. That is also the dictionary definition of the term "addiction". We can probably agree that a "drug addict" is a person that appears to show an inability to stop using a drug. From that we could extrapolate that addiction is the condition where that a drug addict is labelled as "having".

I actually think drug "addiction" is probably best seen as social phenomenon. It's a term used to stigmatise people and behaviours. Smoking wasn't seen as an addiction until quite recently, at which point there was this huge movement in society to stigmatise smoking. I think calling it a disease is also stigmatising. These terms all focus on the individual and how something is wrong with them. Psychiatrists can't treat social problems, so behaviours that appear "problematic" are analysed as psychological or biological phenomena.
 
Addiction is when you have a physical or mental need for something, a MUST if you like.

Anything else is a want. Not an addiction.

Addiction and dependence are the same thing. Habitual use however is not the same as addiction, unless it fulfills the "need" not "want" rule.
 
it's whatever you ant it to be baby!
I don't like either term. I think dependence is the newer friendly term. I am dependent on heroin. I am addicted to heroin. I am a heroin addict. I am a person dependent on heroin. I have an addiction to class a drugs. I have a dependence on class a drugs. Yeah, it's just newspeak by the looks of things . You're not a manic depressive you're bi polar.
 
How do we define what is a need and what is a want? Objectively, there is no need for the human race to survive, so none of our needs are in fact needs. From the neutral perspective of the universe as a pointless thing, there are no needs. There are only wants.

But of course we don't come from a neutral perspective, we come from a human perspective. We do see a difference between needs and wants. So it must be defined by humans. It's not an intrinsic attribute of matter, it arises from human consciousness. Socially. By preference, democratically, in the literal sense of the word (the people must decide).

So I have a problem with the idea that addiction is to be defined by psychiatrists. They have vested interests.
 
Knock, your middle, paragraph is the one that makes most sense.

I never said anything about psychiatrists. I spit on them usually.

But though some of the definitions of want are determined by cultural norms and values, not defined by the individual btw but by what the dominant culture views as 'norml', there are definite physical needs (as demonstrated by withdrawals) which are determined by physiological nature.
 
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