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What I attribute my ability to beat addiction to fundamentally.

Have you read the bible before, specifically the new testament? Jesus directly attributes Himself to divinity, as do His followers, what precedent do you have for believing Christ existed, but that He wasnt divine, because you cant make that extrapolation from scripture, the evidence for Christs divinity is overwhelming. Whether you believe it or not isnt relevant to what is true, but I would argue you dont really know who Christ is nor have you invested time into understanding who He is. This is not a slander against you, I just think you pick aspects of Christ that work for you, but readily discard the other things about Christ you dont agree with. Christ is only presented as He is, not what we think He is, or want Him to be.

In all due respect AddictRecon, you don't really know who Jesus is either. None of us were around at the time he was in the flesh. All we have to go on is written word and legend, which in itself is not a guarantee of accuracy, and certainly not when the writings have been translated and reconstructed. Not only that but in my opinion there are lots of pieces of text in the Bible which are coded to veil deeper meanings, which taken on the surface seem either like fantasy or something different entirely - this can easily be applied to things Jesus either said or stated that he said. I've given one in the other thread on the absolute; "I am the way and the truth and the life". Maybe one in a million people will understand what he meant by that.

Your subjective experiences with Jesus are for you and you alone, and no one else can relate to that. Only the written aspects of Jesus's life according to what is written are relevant to us, unless we've had subjective experiences of our own. And for what it's worth I have had one myself despite not being Christian, or having read the Bible or even particularly crystallized any sort of belief or faith in him. I called his name instinctively during a peak experience when threatened by something I couldn't deal with, and I felt a force move through my inner heart or centre (difficult to describe, it's not a physical centre or my bodily heart, and I didn't even know I had this centre until that moment). It didn't feel like a person or have a face or any attributes, and it could have been something else, but I felt it and that surprised me.. which when in the context of a NN-DMT experience is something, given you're already astonished at that point. Anyway, my point is that I picked an aspect of Jesus in that moment when I needed it the most, and I picked the compassionate warrior-protector component. I didn't and still don't attribute anything more towards who I think he was, other than he may have etched his name on to the body of god through his own enlightenment experience.
 
In all due respect AddictRecon, you don't really know who Jesus is either. None of us were around at the time he was in the flesh.

I know Him quite well actually, I commune with Him and he directs my path daily. But this is not exclusive to me alone, anyone who wants to open a dialogue and be guided by Him directly can, including you.

Rev 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

Rom 8:9 You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him.
Rom 8:10 But if Christ is in you, although the body is dead because of sin, the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

These scriptures are true, and the power of salvation unto repentance, I am submitted to Christ and it is He who directs my path.
 
What if you are wrong?

I can turn that right back around and have an equally compelling argument: what if you are wrong? What if the Muslims have it right? What if Buddhists have it right? What if some tiny indigenous culture somewhere with their particular brand of shamanism has it right and we're almost ALL fucked? No, I think it's far more likely that we all have our own truths, and no one is right or wrong. We exist because the universe is immeasurably vast and complex and tends towards greater and greater complexity. The meaning is life is what we each make of it. It's an intensely personal thing, not appropriate for trying to spread to others. Trying to "spread" religion is a bit like the thought police... hey, believe what I believe, or else (you're going to suffer for eternity).

According to scripture, everyone knows God exists.

I think each individual is a better guide to whether they know that god exists than texts written long ago that insist everyone knows...

Have you read the bible before, specifically the new testament? Jesus directly attributes Himself to divinity, as do His followers, what precedent do you have for believing Christ existed, but that He wasnt divine, because you cant make that extrapolation from scripture, the evidence for Christs divinity is overwhelming. Whether you believe it or not isnt relevant to what is true, but I would argue you dont really know who Christ is nor have you invested time into understanding who He is. This is not a slander against you, I just think you pick aspects of Christ that work for you, but readily discard the other things about Christ you dont agree with. Christ is only presented as He is, not what we think He is, or want Him to be.

Yes as a matter of fact, I have read the NT cover to cover multiple times when I was a teenager (have only read parts of the OT but to me that is much less relevant), it's a big part of why I moved away from Christianity as a belief system. I was raised Christian and was into it for a good number of years though I always had my doubts. See, here is the crux of the problem with discussing religion with religious people. In order for scripture to be proof of anything, you have to believe it is the divine word of god. However I believe that it was written by mortals, each with their own agenda, and as such is nowhere near infalliable or perfect. The books of the NT were written 100 to 400 years after Jesus' death. That is plenty of time for the message to become distorted. Jesus didn't write any of that stuff himself. Additionally, around 300 years after his death, the Roman empire decided to appropriate Christianity as their own religion because they needed to maintain control of the populace, and created the Roman Catholic church. Being a form of social control, we cannot possibly be sure that the message wasn't changed. Plus, even IF the original texts were infalliable, they have been translated multiple times and it is impossible not to lose things in translation to very different languages.

My reading coupled with the inconsistencies I've noticed in the church's portrayal of Jesus have led me to the believe that he wouldn't have wanted a religion built up in his name, to me he seemed like a radically anti-establishment socialist hippie who wasn't claiming to be above anyone, nor was he trying to condemn anyone (and I mean that as a compliment, the real Jesus from my perspective seems like a much more believable and admirable person). Of course I can't prove that... but neither can you. We're all speculating. Believing every word of the Bible is the word of god takes a huge leap of faith that I think is naive to take, personally. It requires believing that every other world religion's own sacred texts are just human-written and falliable, while somehow, even though just like in every other situation, there is ample reason and opportunity for the humans writing it to not in fact magically be guided by god in writing it, with Christianity it's different and no one was subject to putting their own views and agendas into these texts this ONE TIME in all of human history, nor were they in translating it multiple times including like 1500 years afterwards (into English).

Unfortunately I can't get past that, and a lot of religious people can't get past the belief that their own religious texts are perfect and infalliable. So we are at an impasse. Quoting scripture means nothing to me in terms of offering proof of anything.

I'm very happy for you that you found your truth and it works for you, really I am. :) I have also found my truth, and it works for me. I'm a good person, and I'm content and happy. I feel that I know my place in the world and the universe, I am not seeking anything. I am not threatened that you don't share my beliefs. It would be nice if you could be happy for me as well and not feel the need to convince me I'm wrong and you're right. <3
 
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We can get more fundamental then.

Seems that faith is what helped you to beat addiction, and faith is trust in the unknown.

If you have complete trust in something then you have a solid platform upon which to begin building a recovery because there's one thing within you that never wavers.

A lot of addicts haven't had that fundamental core since early life.

If Jesus is that core for you, then you should keep following Him. I feel that if you are still in recovery then you should be careful who you espouse your values to. I have witnessed addicts get into Christianity, start to feel strong, and they start proselytizing before their recovery is complete. I am not Christian but even I can see how much people dislike and even hate Christianity. When born-agains eventually get shot down by someone more clever than them and the seeds of doubt are inserted, they relapse. Other people are not going to see it the way I'm seeing it; it's going to appear like you're trying to convert them to your way of thinking when really you're just sharing your source of support.

I feel that when addicts find a source to support their core self, they should keep it private, at least while they convalesce. Be careful.
 
We can get more fundamental then.

Seems that faith is what helped you to beat addiction, and faith is trust in the unknown.

Faith is what elicited the response for Christ to take action in my life, remember, Christianity isnt just about 'believing', its about the agency of Christ, who promises upon our faith, to take action in our life. There is a response to that faith. When Christ opened my eyes, He proved Himself to me. He can do the same for you.

If Christ was unknown, there would be nothing to place faith in, I know Him, He knows me, and it is He who guides me. If He didnt communicate His will to me directly, Id have no reason to believe He exists. He would just be a character or persona in some ancient literature, but as it turns out, He is far greater and more real than I could have ever imagined.

From what I am getting, and correct me if Im wrong, but it sounds like you think Christ is an in-actionable concept, not realizing that from my perspective and others, that He is a sentient agent separate from myself. The power He gives to overcome is completely different than relying on myself, which has and will always net failure. Through Christ, I am free, and I share that freedom Ive been given whenever possible, in hopes others can come to know it as I have.

Faith in Christ comes by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God, it doesnt matter if you have a bible, the early Christians werent privy to mass produced texts, they relied on the gospel accounts and testimonies of others.

I can quote scripture all I want, but my testimony and what Christ has done in my life is what has the most impact. Your natural inclination is to attempt to deny my experience as genuine, and I get that, but you arent me, and my experience isnt directly available to you for critique because you havent had my experience, nor could you, it would require your own experience, your own testimony, and that comes with genuine faith in Christ, which you do not have. At best, you could reply 'cool story bro' but you dont have any grounds to deny the experience Ive had and still have as genuine, its just not possible, though many will try..
 
I can turn that right back around and have an equally compelling argument: what if you are wrong?

I have no frame of reference to entertain my experience with Christ as invalid, He is a separate agent with sentience who acted in my life, it would be like denying you exist after conversing with you, its ridiculous.

Buddhism isnt a religion, its more of a philosophy, Buddha died about 500 years before Christ, and he never wanted a religion started after his teachings, therefore, buddhism is invalid as a transcendental religion because he himself would contradict it, and does not offer what Christ does, nor could he, he is dead. Its kind of like how Christians accost homosexuals when Christ Himself never commanded us to do this, its just wrong, incoherent and goes against the core of Christs teachings. If you want to make an impact on a homosexual, do as Christ did, and love them where they are, as Christ did. This is one of the commandments, love your neighbor as yourself, something Christians oddly struggle with, even though its a direct command from Christ, who as I remember, ate and drank along side sinners, showing them love and compassion.



I think each individual is a better guide to whether they know that god exists than texts written long ago that insist everyone knows...

Unless they are deceived, which of course would render what they believe invalid. It is written, draw near to God, and He will draw near to you, but conversely, depart from God, and He will depart from you, meaning His presence isnt discernible, and there is room for deception. When someone tells me they dont know or believe God exists, I generally believe they think that, but I also know why they think that.

Yes as a matter of fact, I have read the NT cover to cover multiple times when I was a teenager (have only read parts of the OT but to me that is much less relevant), it's a big part of why I moved away from Christianity as a belief system. I was raised Christian and was into it for a good number of years though I always had my doubts. See, here is the crux of the problem with discussing religion with religious people. In order for scripture to be proof of anything, you have to believe it is the divine word of god. However I believe that it was written by mortals, each with their own agenda, and as such is nowhere near infalliable or perfect. The books of the NT were written 100 to 400 years after Jesus' death. That is plenty of time for the message to become distorted. Jesus didn't write any of that stuff himself. Additionally, around 300 years after his death, the Roman empire decided to appropriate Christianity as their own religion because they needed to maintain control of the populace, and created the Roman Catholic church. Being a form of social control, we cannot possibly be sure that the message wasn't changed. Plus, even IF the original texts were infalliable, they have been translated multiple times and it is impossible not to lose things in translation to very different languages.

If you were studied in Christianity and the NT, at what point did you miss the mountain of scripture, which I barely scratched the surface on, that denotes the deity of Christ? This seems to contrast with your earlier statement which eludes to the fact that you seem to think there is no reference to the deity of Christ, but someone studied in the NT would know that the deity of Christ is explicitly taught. The books of the NT actual dates are not known, but we do have good evidence for the gospel as early as 60ad, which falls in line with almost all historical accounts of anything, as most history is not written contemporaneously. Holding the bible to a standard that historians dont hold secular history to is a bit unfair, and seems kinda hypocritical, not that I can blame you entirely for that, you simply didnt know. We know Pontius Pilate existed, we have physical evidence, and Josephus wrote about him, but Josephus wasnt a contemporary of Pilate, but that doesnt mean his writings are invalid, in fact, they are very valid. Most historical accounts are in fact not written in until well after the fact, the bible is simply no different in this regard.

We also have the original greek manuscripts, which each translation is a 'one off' from. The bible is not the result of translating translations.. Every translation is from the greek to english, or the greek to german and so on and so forth, and while the vernacular of languages change over time, so do the translations, naturally, and they are very accurate. Besides, you can check for yourself if the translation is true to the greek, its really quite simple. I became familiar with your arguments because I used them at one point in time, not realizing I was in error, I simply wasnt working with all of the information, which I feel you arent either, but that is something you would have to invest time into, I cannot force your hand, nor would i try.

coupled with the inconsistencies I've noticed in the church's portrayal of Jesus

Jesus and the apostles foretold the Church would fail to represent Christ, not only that, but just because bad Christians are terrible at correctly portraying Christ, doesnt mean Christ is invalid, thats like not going to the gym and cheating yourself of the health benefits because there are people there who are out of shape, its just not a rational approach.


I'm a good person

In contrast to what? What objective foundation for good do you contrast yourself with? Yourself? And doesnt that beg the question?

Dont take that as me saying you arent following some morally obligatory inherent set of values, non Christians are fully capable of Christian morality, but we are all guilty of immorality to some degree, Im sure you can agree on that, Ive never met someone who didnt say they havent ever done something immoral, I doubt you would be the first.

I am truly intrigued by your statement, "I am a good person" it denotes a concrete foundation for what is good, one that you believe you fit with perfectly, and id like to know what the foundation is that you abide in.

Thanks for the conversation, you really are a pleasure to talk to, I cant stress that enough.. if we truly do reach an impasse, or you feel like we shouldnt continue because you are being put in an uncomfortable situation, please let me know and we can part ways on the topic, i dont want to shut off potential future discourse because you felt pressured to continue.
 
Your natural inclination is to attempt to deny my experience as genuine, and I get that, but you arent me, and my experience isnt directly available to you for critique because you havent had my experience, nor could you, it would require your own experience, your own testimony, and that comes with genuine faith in Christ, which you do not have.

That's not true. I have actually worked with Christ. He has power, he is good to work with -- he is also not the only enlightened soul out there.

The spirit of Christ is conflated with the Christian God yaweh who demands that he be the one and only, with no others before him. That's why my interaction with you will never be resolvable. You think you've found the one and only.

And that's fine. I believe your experience is genuine. I don't believe you are showing others the same courtesy.
 
If you were studied in Christianity and the NT, at what point did you miss the mountain of scripture, which I barely scratched the surface on, that denotes the deity of Christ? This seems to contrast with your earlier statement which eludes to the fact that you seem to think there is no reference to the deity of Christ, but someone studied in the NT would know that the deity of Christ is explicitly taught. The books of the NT actual dates are not known, but we do have good evidence for the gospel as early as 60ad, which falls in line with almost all historical accounts of anything, as most history is not written contemporaneously. Holding the bible to a standard that historians dont hold secular history to is a bit unfair, and seems kinda hypocritical, not that I can blame you entirely for that, you simply didnt know. We know Pontius Pilate existed, we have physical evidence, and Josephus wrote about him, but Josephus wasnt a contemporary of Pilate, but that doesnt mean his writings are invalid, in fact, they are very valid. Most historical accounts are in fact not written in until well after the fact, the bible is simply no different in this regard.

We also have the original greek manuscripts, which each translation is a 'one off' from. The bible is not the result of translating translations.. Every translation is from the greek to english, or the greek to german and so on and so forth, and while the vernacular of languages change over time, so do the translations, naturally, and they are very accurate. Besides, you can check for yourself if the translation is true to the greek, its really quite simple. I became familiar with your arguments because I used them at one point in time, not realizing I was in error, I simply wasnt working with all of the information, which I feel you arent either, but that is something you would have to invest time into, I cannot force your hand, nor would i try.

Well, I should clarify this a bit. I am certainly aware that there are all sorts of references in the scripture to the divinity of Jesus. My point was that I do not trust the scripture to be the word of god or even to accurately depict everything Jesus said. I believe that, since humans wrote the books of the Bible, they were, like all writings of humans, subject to individual bias and belief and agenda. I can of course offer no proof at all of this assertion, but what I was trying to assert is that, with my internal thoughts on the subject coupled with what I read between the lines when I read the scripture, I believe Jesus was not trying to assert his own divinity beyond anyone else, but rather than he was trying to assert ALL of our divinity, equally, with himself no better than anyone. He was a living example of what we can be. Later on, the writings (as well as which writings were allowed to be part of the "official" Bible) which told the tale twisted this message either on purpose or innocently.

It's hard to discuss this sort of thing because you and I were not alive then, we didn't see the drama of Jesus' life, we didn't know Jesus the living human. You claim to know Jesus the spirit, and perhaps you do, but I feel like I know Jesus as well, in my own way. It's entirely subjective. My view feels right to me, and your view feels right to you. Where do we go from here? This is the impasse I was talking about. And I didn't mean it in a negative sense, I am just not sure how to continue the conversation.


Xorkoth said:
I am a good person

In contrast to what? What objective foundation for good do you contrast yourself with? Yourself? And doesnt that beg the question?

Dont take that as me saying you arent following some morally obligatory inherent set of values, non Christians are fully capable of Christian morality, but we are all guilty of immorality to some degree, Im sure you can agree on that, Ive never met someone who didnt say they havent ever done something immoral, I doubt you would be the first.

I am truly intrigued by your statement, "I am a good person" it denotes a concrete foundation for what is good, one that you believe you fit with perfectly, and id like to know what the foundation is that you abide in.

I guess now we're getting into whether morality is relative or absolute. Personally I believe morality is subjective, I don't believe in an objective, absolute and oppositional good/evil process in the universe. I don't believe that god is a singular entity of good, and I don't believe in satan. In fact I only use the word god to refer to the universe itself, that force of awareness within us all. God is sentience and experience, at least that's what I believe. However, being that we are living subjective, individuated lives, seemingly apart from everyone else, we are able to affect each other in many ways. Some of those ways bring pain. So I think, in human civilization, it is useful and necessary to define "good" and "bad" in the context of how we can best bring the highest quality of life to everyone, since we have to not only coexist, but cooperate in order to survive. To me, a "good" action is one that is done with the intention of bringing good to people, while a "bad" action is one that is done with the intention of bringing good to yourself, knowing that it will be at the expense of another, knowing that you will be inflicting pain (or I suppose it could be an action that is only intended to bring pain but I don't really believe people do such actions without there being a gain for themselves). Actions can be meant to be good and turn out to cause pain by accident, but that is different from an action taken where you know it will cause pain and you do it anyway.

So, when I say "I am a good person", what I mean is that I live my life in a way where I try my very hardest to bring as much happiness to others as I can, and to avoid bringing pain to others. I try to be a good friend by being there for people, I try to support my fellow humans when I see them struggling. Beyond even that, I try to be kind to the planet (as much as I can or any of us really can these days). I believe it is my mission in life to bring light to people, I do it through relationships, and art, and music, and writing, and Bluelight. I have reached this way of being through my life experiences, which included Christianity for a while and no longer do.

I don't believe I fit a concrete foundation of good "perfectly" as you stated, but I do my best, and as I get older I think I do better and better at it.
 
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Well, I should clarify this a bit. I am certainly aware that there are all sorts of references in the scripture to the divinity of Jesus. My point was that I do not trust the scripture to be the word of god or even to accurately depict everything Jesus said. I believe that, since humans wrote the books of the Bible, they were, like all writings of humans, subject to individual bias and belief and agenda. I can of course offer no proof at all of this assertion, but what I was trying to assert is that, with my internal thoughts on the subject coupled with what I read between the lines when I read the scripture, I believe Jesus was not trying to assert his own divinity beyond anyone else, but rather than he was trying to assert ALL of our divinity, equally, with himself no better than anyone. He was a living example of what we can be. Later on, the writings (as well as which writings were allowed to be part of the "official" Bible) which told the tale twisted this message either on purpose or innocently.

It's hard to discuss this sort of thing because you and I were not alive then, we didn't see the drama of Jesus' life, we didn't know Jesus the living human. You claim to know Jesus the spirit, and perhaps you do, but I feel like I know Jesus as well, in my own way. It's entirely subjective. My view feels right to me, and your view feels right to you. Where do we go from here? This is the impasse I was talking about. And I didn't mean it in a negative sense, I am just not sure how to continue the conversation.




I guess now we're getting into whether morality is relative or absolute. Personally I believe morality is subjective, I don't believe in an objective, absolute and oppositional good/evil process in the universe. I don't believe that god is a singular entity of good, and I don't believe in satan. In fact I only use the word god to refer to the universe itself, that force of awareness within us all. God is sentience and experience, at least that's what I believe. However, being that we are living subjective, individuated lives, seemingly apart from everyone else, we are able to affect each other in many ways. Some of those ways bring pain. So I think, in human civilization, it is useful and necessary to define "good" and "bad" in the context of how we can best bring the highest quality of life to everyone, since we have to not only coexist, but cooperate in order to survive. To me, a "good" action is one that is done with the intention of bringing good to people, while a "bad" action is one that is done with the intention of bringing good to yourself, knowing that it will be at the expense of another, knowing that you will be inflicting pain (or I suppose it could be an action that is only intended to bring pain but I don't really believe people do such actions without there being a gain for themselves). Actions can be meant to be good and turn out to cause pain by accident, but that is different from an action taken where you know it will cause pain and you do it anyway.

So, when I say "I am a good person", what I mean is that I live my life in a way where I try my very hardest to bring as much happiness to others as I can, and to avoid bringing pain to others. I try to be a good friend by being there for people, I try to support my fellow humans when I see them struggling. Beyond even that, I try to be kind to the planet (as much as I can or any of us really can these days). I believe it is my mission in life to bring light to people, I do it through relationships, and art, and music, and writing, and Bluelight. I have reached this way of being through my life experiences, which included Christianity for a while and no longer do.

I don't believe I fit a concrete foundation of good "perfectly" as you stated, but I do my best, and as I get older I think I do better and better at it.

I dont want to press you much further, youve been very kind and cordial in our exchanges, and generously forthcoming in your own views, I would only ask you to challenge yourself on a few things, (these dont require you to reply, nor do I expect you to) but ask yourself, Could God conceivably choose men throughout history to reveal His word through, in the way He chooses, for His purpose.

I know you will always be searching for more answers. If the 20 year old version of myself and I were to have a conversation today, it would be unpleasant, I was a fool then, and probably to some degree am now, but the contrast is amazing.. My younger self thought he had it all figured out, and would have written me off, and probably not in a cordial manner lol..

There is something profound to be said for age and life experiences and how they change our perspectives, nearly entirely in my case.
 
Agreed, age has changed me quite profoundly. My entire twenties I was addicted to opiates, I wanted to die by the end of that. Now I'm 34 and I've been clean for 3 and a half years, I just had enough of it at some point and woke the fuck up, and I haven't had a craving or touched them since. Throughout my twenties, especially in my early twenties, I was very interested in convincing people that they were wrong and I was right, but as life goes on I really believe we each have our own truth.

I like to think about the nature of reality, and discuss it, and speculate, and explore my mind, but I'm pretty comfortable these days knowing that I will never know for sure. None of us do. That's cool, I like the mystery. :) Not knowing for sure what life is all about used to give me anxiety, but now it doesn't. All I know is, I'm here, I wake up every day as the same person. I've got friends and family and love and passions and my life is quite full. I'm a happy, lucky guy and I appreciate that deeply. :)

We will always look to our past selves and realize we thought we knew, but we didn't. It's happened enough times to me that I know now that I'll never have the whole picture.
 
The spirit of Christ is conflated with the Christian God yaweh who demands that he be the one and only, with no others before him. That's why my interaction with you will never be resolvable. You think you've found the one and only.

Consider Christs own words, and my only question is, do you agree with Him?

Joh 14:6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.
Joh 14:7 If you had known me, you would have known my Father also. From now on you do know him and have seen him.”
Joh 14:8 Philip said to him, “Lord, show us the Father, and it is enough for us.”
Joh 14:9 Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long, and you still do not know me, Philip? Whoever has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?
 
Consider Christs own words, and my only question is, do you agree with Him?

Joh 14:6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.
Joh 14:7 If you had known me, you would have known my Father also. From now on you do know him and have seen him.”
Joh 14:8 Philip said to him, “Lord, show us the Father, and it is enough for us.”
Joh 14:9 Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long, and you still do not know me, Philip? Whoever has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?

Christ's words were recorded, at minimum, 50 years after his death. Possibly more.

The earliest recorded version of the Bible that we have access to is the Koine manuscript, which was partially burnt in a fire. Here is a page that shows the translation options for each word in the original Greek Koine for the quotes you have made:

http://www.gospel-john.com/greek/chapter-14.html

As you can see there is a lot of room for interpretation.

Even when we are working with a relatively accurate translation, scriptures are interpretive. For me, reading even those questionable English translations, I can see multiple meanings. But if I were a devout follower of Christ I may only see the one that supports my understanding.

There have been many gurus with degrees of attainment over the course of human history who claimed that they alone knew the truth. The story of Christ is perhaps more compelling because he has had fame and notoriety due to Constantine's endorsement. How many other people like Christ have been around, or are around now, that we will never know or care about thanks to cultural infiltration by a few select religions?
 
Christ's words were recorded, at minimum, 50 years after his death. Possibly more.

The earliest recorded version of the Bible that we have access to is the Koine manuscript, which was partially burnt in a fire. Here is a page that shows the translation options for each word in the original Greek Koine for the quotes you have made:

http://www.gospel-john.com/greek/chapter-14.html

As you can see there is a lot of room for interpretation.

Even when we are working with a relatively accurate translation, scriptures are interpretive. For me, reading even those questionable English translations, I can see multiple meanings. But if I were a devout follower of Christ I may only see the one that supports my understanding.

There have been many gurus with degrees of attainment over the course of human history who claimed that they alone knew the truth. The story of Christ is perhaps more compelling because he has had fame and notoriety due to Constantine's endorsement. How many other people like Christ have been around, or are around now, that we will never know or care about thanks to cultural infiltration by a few select religions?

So I guess my question was, do you believe the texts that concern Christ are valid, and do you believe what Christ said? I can break down the scripture in its native Koine vernacular if you are having interpretive issues, or things arent clear. Koine Greek is VERY precise, whereas English has one word that can mean 5 things.

For example, many different Greek words get translated as "Love" in the NT, but the Greek uses different words to specify exactly what is meant. eros, philia, ludus, agape, pragma, or philautia for example have different contexts, but are all translated simply as 'love' in English. English is a bit different in that context can be derived from the body of words being used, so we can use the same word even though the context of the word has variation.

You shouldnt have interpretive issues with the texts unless you are redefining what those words mean, and if that is possible, then no language can ultimately make sense, I could just interpret everything you say how I want to interpret it, even if it disagrees with the context you are conveying.

Does that make sense?
 
So I guess my question was, do you believe the texts that concern Christ are valid, and do you believe what Christ said? I can break down the scripture in its native Koine vernacular if you are having interpretive issues, or things arent clear. Koine Greek is VERY precise, whereas English has one word that can mean 5 things.

For example, many different Greek words get translated as "Love" in the NT, but the Greek uses different words to specify exactly what is meant. eros, philia, ludus, agape, pragma, or philautia for example have different contexts, but are all translated simply as 'love' in English. English is a bit different in that context can be derived from the body of words being used, so we can use the same word even though the context of the word has variation.

You shouldnt have interpretive issues with the texts unless you are redefining what those words mean, and if that is possible, then no language can ultimately make sense, I could just interpret everything you say how I want to interpret it, even if it disagrees with the context you are conveying.

Does that make sense?

You can read Koine?
 
You can read Koine?

I can translate Koine Greek accurately, reading without resources is something Im still a ways off from, So i can speak words, but its hard to form entire sentences unless I know them by heart. (ουτως γαρ ηγαπησεν ο θεος τον κοσμον ωστε τον υιον αυτου τον μονογενη εδωκεν ινα πας ο πιστευων εις αυτον μη αποληται αλλ εχη ζωην αιωνιον For example) . I use the BDAG and HALOT and I predominately rely on the Nestle-Aland Novum Testamentum (27,28 )and the UBS4.
 
I can translate Koine Greek accurately, reading without resources is something Im still a ways off from, So i can speak words, but its hard to form entire sentences unless I know them by heart. (ουτως γαρ ηγαπησεν ο θεος τον κοσμον ωστε τον υιον αυτου τον μονογενη εδωκεν ινα πας ο πιστευων εις αυτον μη αποληται αλλ εχη ζωην αιωνιον For example) . I use the BDAG and HALOT and I predominately rely on the Nestle-Aland Novum Testamentum (27,28 )and the UBS4.

I still stand by what I said before. The Bible as we know it is not a first person account of Jesus, but something written decades if not more than a century after his death.

And anyway, you don't need the Bible to justify your personal experiences.
 
I still stand by what I said before. The Bible as we know it is not a first person account of Jesus, but something written decades if not more than a century after his death.

And anyway, you don't need the Bible to justify your personal experiences.

Its not supposed to be, a first person account wouldnt require any witnesses, which is why the NT is written from the witnesses perspective, Unlike Islam for example where you had one person who claimed authorship with no way to know if what he wrote was true or not. Whether what was written came days or decades after Christs ascension really doesnt matter, Christianity took off in the first century like wildfire based on the testimony of this witness. We can nearly construct the entire NT from quotes of the early Church fathers, and that is before a compiled NT even existed, yet no one wants to talk about this fact. Most history is not written in the first person, and most history is not written contemporaneously either. If you held the NT to that standard, you would have to reject alot of secular history as well.

You probably dont believe Socrates existed either, he left no first person account of his work, and all we have is what Plato wrote..

I dont 'need' the bible to justify anything, but it just so happens that it does.
 
You probably dont believe Socrates existed either, he left no first person account of his work, and all we have is what Plato wrote..

It doesn't matter whether or not Socrates existed if his words are resonant for the reader. Much like the Bible.

But I never claimed Socrates was real. I said that the existence of Jesus is not something we can confirm, and this is relevant because you are using quotes of Jesus as some kind of evidence to preach spiritual truth at people.

*If* Jesus never existed, then Christians need to back down a bit in their proselytizing of fictitious stories as the basis for why people should convert.

I dont 'need' the bible to justify anything, but it just so happens that it does.

And so our discussion comes full circle. Own what you believe and stop trying to prove it to people. If Jesus is the way then people will come to him on their own. You should know very well that for non-believers, no proof will convince them, and for believers no proof is necessary.
 
It doesn't matter whether or not Socrates existed if his words are resonant for the reader. Much like the Bible.

But I never claimed Socrates was real. I said that the existence of Jesus is not something we can confirm, and this is relevant because you are using quotes of Jesus as some kind of evidence to preach spiritual truth at people.

*If* Jesus never existed, then Christians need to back down a bit in their proselytizing of fictitious stories as the basis for why people should convert.



And so our discussion comes full circle. Own what you believe and stop trying to prove it to people. If Jesus is the way then people will come to him on their own. You should know very well that for non-believers, no proof will convince them, and for believers no proof is necessary.

I never claimed i could prove anything, Im a staunch evidentialist, we dont presume to prove anything. Id rather present evidence and let others formulate their own understanding. You may love your family, but you could never prove it, you would have to give me evidence in order to form my own conclusions and I would have to take your word on faith if the evidence you gave merits a strong enough case.
 
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