What happens after suboxone

[pirates_]

I posted this in the suboxone thread, but I have a few more questions, and would like to have more people respond than the few who check the Suboxone thread. I hope this is okay.

I took my last line of heroin 48 hours ago after months and months of being high 24/7. I am getting by with the help of 5 bupe strips. I going to be taking one a day for 5 days, and stop. If needed, as soon as I am able to get high again, I will pop a hydrocodone or maybe injest some kratom to pass any w/d that I may have to go threw, but NO HEROIN. I want to stress that my goal here is not to quit heroin, I just dont want to do it for a while. I know eventually I am going to end up stuck on it again, but I just want to set my expectations to realistic levels..

so my questions are this

Whats going to happen after my 5 day use of bupe..Will I go into a full out heroin withdraw? or will I have a bupe withdraw. I figure if I go threw an h w/d I will stand no chance of reaching my goal, but if its a bupe w/d I will be ok. I figure since I am only doing 8 mg a day..for 5 days it shouldnt be that bad

my next question is this.. how am i supposed to feel in suboxone? Since I am not taking more than 2 mg at at time every 4 hours..i fill some moderate stomach discomfort. Is this the heroin withdraw symptoms breaking threw the small amount of bupe that I am taking, or is this just one of the side effects of the bupe

 

[Mr.Scagnattie]

Taking bupe for 5 days isn't typically a long enough time to become dependent..which is why it's so effective in detoxing in the short run. So if you take it for that amount of time, and especially wean off of it so your taking less and less each day for that 5 days, you should come out of it okay. It also depends on how strung out you were on H—what your dose was and how often you were taking it. 5 days isn't enough time to be rid of withdrawals completely for a hefty dope habit, but it's certainly a damn good start. The brunt of the super psychical pain will be gone. You might be left with some more mild symptoms.

If you're still feeling a little crappy on the bupe, that's normal..especially for the first couple days until your body gets used to it. But it should take away the majority of your symptoms, otherwise it's a sign you're not on a high enough dose.

 

[pirates_]

Cool thanks for the response man, and I wasnt too bad on the h, well at least not compared to alot of people that ive talked to on here.. I was doing on average about .7 of cheese heroin, or about .4 or some very decent tar everyday for the past 6 months, and about half that amount every day for a year before that..

Currently on a scale of 1-10. 10 being the highest, my misery is at 5...its there, i can feel it, but im making it.. Im trying to use as little suboxone as possible..

 

[shercarico]

Hello' I to use to be on herion then went to the Methadone I have been on the subs for about 4 1/2 yrs but just tried to quit cold turkey and went into full blown withdraws, so if u take these for 5 days in a row and do nothin else ur gonna be sick, the way Im lookin at it right now it seems I'll be on this shit the rest of my life Im 2 old to go through the with draws, it would be different if i could just lay my big ass in bed and do nothin but I gotta beable 2 fuction , Im raiseing my grandson plus gotta cook , clean ect I feel 4 ya, But really If I were u I would stick with the subs awhile and don't talk 2 nobody that gets high I had 2 find new friends can't be around the crap. Then once ur on it awhile " at least a few Months " Talk 2 ur doctor about slowly takin u off, u don't wanna try what I just went through it's almost worse then herion with draws. Best of luck 2 ya my friend stay strong

 

[Pjkt2501]

Hey mate, I'm going to shuffle this to OD as they deal more with this stuff. I understand you already posted in the bupe megathread, but we're not an instant-response forum (though sometimes it may seem so!).

Good luck!

BDD -> OD

 

[motiv311]

Just quit again a month ago after a whole summer of use. About 6 hours of physical w/d and maybe 2-3 days of sluggishness. Then you Feel GREAT!

 

[Titus]

Good luck bro. I was doing great on suboxone, touched heroin once. No problem. Touched heroin a 2nd time like 3-4 weeks later and am back to where I was pre-suboxone- not a good place- which is why I went on suboxone in the first place.

since I bouce around on subutex (started this some time after suboxone with basically the same intentions of my suboxone use, I just got it cheaper) and heroin it's hard for me to distinguish the withdrawls from the subutex and heroin and compare them. My heroin use was/is a lot more than yours in any given day/week, but the duration was not as consistent. I 'chipped' using for 7-8 days straight at the longest.

Now my situation is acutally worse as I developed dependence on suboxone/subutex so when I switched back to heroin I had an ongoing opiate dependence for at least a couple of months. I'm still choosing heroin over subutex when it's not in my best interests. Should have never picked it up again. Kinda like cig's or whatever "I'll do it just once" yeah, right.

 

[DooMMooD]

IME, anytime you go into the mentailty of just quitting for awhile, you literally get no where. Not even able to achieve the goal of quitting for 5 days if you say you will quit for 5 days...

Anytime you've already resigned yourself to failure, you have no reason to fight. You yourself (OP) has already admitted you know how hard it is, how you will be pulled back in eventually. Well I hate to tell you buddy but BECAUSE that is the case, it is nigh impossible to escape the grasp for even a little bit if youre not giving it your all, and aren't already resigned to defeat before you even begin.

He who surrenders before the battle has already lost.

This is just all in my experiences. I'd say many would agree though.


Having giving my preaching, I'll answer some of your sub questions, since I"ve been taking suboxone for quite some time myself. Firstly, you should feel normal on suboxone. The first few days you might feel 'high', well that will pass very rapidly. Suboxone after that first induction (first days taking it) will make you feel normal. Some common side effects people on BL mention are some headaches, some hot/cold flashes, constipation (just like normal opiates), hard to piss, prob a few I'm missing but I think thats a good coverage.

YOU DO NOT WANT TO TAKE A WHOLE SUBOXONE EACH DAY THEN SUDDENLY STOP!!! If you are afraid of heroin withdrawals and do this, you will be in for a fun treat as you'll be going through some terrible withdrawals for WAY LONGER than heroin w/d, like up to a week or two with an PAWS period of weeks.

If your goal is to avoid w/d you want to take as LITTLE AS POSSIBLE TO FEEL NORMAL. As those 5 days go on, you should be taking progressively less and less. Take just enough to feel perfectly normal. I know most people look online for an exact amount to take, there really isn't one It all depends on habits, ROA, etc. I guess if i HAD TO give an amount I'd say 8mg on your first day (with 2mg boosters every 1-2 hours until you feel NORMAL). The next day drop that by 2mg, the next day by 2mg, etc etc etc. This is in effect what is known as a rapid detox. If done correctly and you are taking AS LITTLE SUBOXONE AS NECESSARY, you should experience almost no withdrawals.

EX: when i was in a 5 day detox, my first day I was given 10mg Subutex, day 2 8mg, day 3 6mg, day 4, 3mg, day 5 2mg, went home with a few from the doc, day 6 1mg. I eventually got on suboxone program b/c i was afraid of relapse (rightly so, I did slip up not long after I left detox), I experienced almost non existent withdrawals. And for reference I was doing on average 160-200mg/day oxymorphone when i went.

DO NOT CHASE A HIGH WITH SUBOXONE! Not only will you not get high, but you will lengthen/intensify the withdrawal symptoms you will have. Do not take 8mg/suboxone for 5 days after months of a heroin addiction and jump off. That is not simply asking for trouble, its begging for it. You will never ever ever make your goal if you do that.

 

[Titus]

YOU DO NOT WANT TO TAKE A WHOLE SUBOXONE EACH DAY THEN SUDDENLY STOP!!! If you are afraid of heroin withdrawals and do this, you will be in for a fun treat as you'll be going through some terrible withdrawals for WAY LONGER than heroin w/d, like up to a week or two with an PAWS period of weeks.

This seems to sum up what you will be in for if you follow your plan. And to me it sounds WORSE than simple heroin w/d. So it sounds like to me, you will be worse off going on suboxone at a constant dose for 5 days and stopping than you would be doing H at a constant dose and just stopping. BTW, what is 'PAWS'?

If your goal is to avoid w/d you want to take as LITTLE AS POSSIBLE TO FEEL NORMAL. As those 5 days go on, you should be taking progressively less and less. Take just enough to feel perfectly normal. I know most people look online for an exact amount to take, there really isn't one It all depends on habits, ROA, etc. I guess if i HAD TO give an amount I'd say 8mg on your first day (with 2mg boosters every 1-2 hours until you feel NORMAL). The next day drop that by 2mg, the next day by 2mg, etc etc etc. This is in effect what is known as a rapid detox. If done correctly and you are taking AS LITTLE SUBOXONE AS NECESSARY, you should experience almost no withdrawals.

I can tell you know a lot more than me about this, but would someone really feel NO w/d doing this for only 5 days following some sort of regular dope dependence? I have no idea but 5 days sounds like a VERY SHORT ammt of time to experience zero w/d symptoms. Like I said I don't know much at all about opiate w/d programs but only 5 days is enough to not feel like shit after stopping? Really? I would think that if someone had a habit of dope for like a week or something then followed this rapid suboxone detox they wouldn't feel w/d / feel like shit, but only 5 days and no w/d sx? Wow? I'm surprized by that. I would think it would take closer to like a month of slowly titrating the dose down to avoid feeling like shit when the opiates finally leave your system. Like I said I basically know shit about this so am not challenging your post from any position of knowledge at all, I'm just very surprised based on my own personal experience with heroin, subutex, and suboxone. I'm often wrong so am prob wrong here too but 5 days sounds kinda scary for expecting no w/d sx to me.

 

[BiggDirty01]

@Titus:

The reason for the ultra quick taper with suboxone/subutext is that while its effects physically are somewhat diminished in comparison to full agonists like Oxymorphone or Oxycodone, Bupe actually has a very high affinity for the opioid receptors in your brain. Its why people with enormous dope habits can be fully inducted on relatively small doses of SUBS.

But on the other hand, being so potent, it has just as high a risk...if not more, of inflicting a powerful detox on users. So while you can switch quickly off your opiate on to Bupe, the quicker you kick the bupe (which can be tapered much much quicker than say methadone, another detox drug) the less chance you have off having a serious withdrawl.

Last summer I came off fentanyl 200mcg, dilaudid 36mg, mscontin 600 and methadone 60mg daily onto subutext at 8mg on day 1 and I was off subs by day 6 or 7 with no ill feelings 2 or 3 days after that.

Things you can do to increase/quicken your bodies reaction to being opiate free like exercise and solid nutrition and hydration and potentially an anti-depressant help the body resume normal production of neurotransmitters in the brain such as norepinephrine and dopamine (the feel good chemicals) that have been shut down while using of copious amounts of opiates and subsequent unnatural chemical responses from ingesting opiates.

Post Acute Withdrawl Syndrome (PAWS) is sometimes just as or more difficult than the acute physical withdrawls because of how long it takes for the brain to resume and stabilize natural production of neurochemicals. Sleeplessness, sweats, depression and the feeling of intense boredom and detachment with the 'real world' are all common indicators of this syndrome. It is nothing unusual or unique to just you. But it lasts for awhile (~6 months according to my booklet from rehab) and is the most common period for relapse. It is important that you have a support system and try and maintain a positive attitude during this time (I couldn't do it...thats why I ended up in rehab).

Sorry if I went of on a tangent there but I really sympathize with your feelings at this point. Kickin dope is a fuckin nightmare but it is possible! Good luck and PM me if you need to talk to someone bro.

 

[DooMMooD]

I gave a VERY BASIC summation of it, the basic ideas. Theres more detailed ways to do it (breaking up daily dose into 2 set amounts sometimes helps, sometimes you want to drop more on one day and less on another etc; many people here have written GREAT guides on rapid detoxing with 1-5 8mg subs, I probably could help you Titus in PMS if you want some personal input).

You wont be 100% withdrawal free. If youre taking just enough to get by, you SHOULD feel a little uncomfortable. You might possibly be able to take a bit more than the BARE MINIMUM to avoid the VAST majority of negative feelings, just by stretching the rapid taper out a bit. But as long as youre not trying to do maintenance rapid tapers CAN BE DONE in 1-2 weeks. How fast you do it will determine how uncomfortable you feel (faster=bit more uncomfortable). But, its VERY MANAGEABLE and easy to be done.

Problem with rapid detox is staying clean afterwards. For some people (myself included) the weekly structure of a suboxone clinic helps me instill some structure to my life. And I prefer it b/c its less restrictive then methadone but not totally on your own. To each their own.

Once again though, if youre already going in with the intent of only quitting for a few days I wish you luck in even making it that far. Setting a surrender date before you start only gives you more incentive to give up even sooner.

Because why not right? whats the difference between giving up on sunday vs wednesday and getting high sooner, amirite?

 

[Titus]

I guess I set myself up albeit unknowingly by getting physically dependent on bupe/suboxone when I was not dependent on dope. Then when I went back to dope and tried to go back to sub's, the timeline is unclear, and I have underlying PTSD and dpresssion which are both unmedicated at the moment (all was fine when on the bupe and kpins and no psych meds) my post w/d or very low dose of bupe attempt towards quitting or whatever and my negative symptoms sucked ass bigtime. Depression up the ass, no eating for like 2 weeks almost, etc. It was depression on steroids with some opiate w/d sx in the beginning. went back to dope and feeling OK but am cycling into the prob again and playing with fire.

Ultimately I"m not sure I"m ready to throw in the opiate towel (be it subs or whatever, and have realized that for effective w/d I MUST be on certain meds from a psych, whereas on subutex and kpin not needed and doing better than fine).

Gonna make another decision today: more dope or use the rest and continue with xanax and then do 1-2 days on subutex along with xanax and see if I can maintain. If my damn stockpile of subutex was in my possession I expected by now I would have no near term pressing issue as it is really a wonder drug for me at low doses.

When I was an alcoholic in traditional recovery I had a problem with opiate maintenance problems. Now I'm straight up libertarian and also think pain free living is the place to be...if one can be there. I know for certain that I've already experienced my lifetimes worth of it, if there was a way to average out pain per person, prob hit lifetime max deserved by age 3 or so...hense my interest in drugs to manage life others simply manage....

 

[DooMMooD]

We all got our own paths in life man.

I thought I'd be off the subs sooner. But I was afraid. So i've been on about 5 months at 3mg/day. I know the w/d may last a bit but i'm hoping by then my life is in such an improved shape that I wont mind it, and I'll be distracted by other stuff ya know? But I was heavily hooked on opana, and i KNEW the only way to avoid that monster was sub. No w/d ever compared to it and no craving ever did either.

But I just turned down a call i got offering me possibly some of the last opanas ever. And I turned it down. So its evidence things can get better! Mentality (mental addiction) is just as important is physicality (physical addiction) so its best to work on both!

 

[Znegative]

^I think the mental addiction is far worse than the physical. Don't get me wrong, being sick sucks, but it's not going to kill you (unless you become severely dehydrated). Suboxone and methadone are great in that they can totally help you adjust to living life without having to suffer through withdrawal and then PAWS, and during that time you can build up new coping skills and hobby's to keep yourself content and away from other opiates. But it's sort of a double edged sword, because unfortunately, methadone and suboxone give the worst Post Acute Withdrawal Syndrome of all opiates/opioids. But that's awesome that you turned the opana down man. That takes a lot of hard work