what drugs are safe to use on sodium valproate?

[The Monkey Mantra]

^^^ Sturnam:

Did you catch the part above where I said I took narcotics (as in OPIATES) on Depakote? Read my post again, as it was quite ON topic GHB, I've yet to try, but I'll get back to you on how well it works. I should be trying that this week - maybe tonight!

As far as the dosage conversion of 1000 mg Depakote (what I'm on) to Valproic acid, it should be *near* one-to-one, but not exactly.

 

[paranoid android]

paranoid andriod said he took opiates while on valproate and he was fine. What were your dosages on valproate paranoid?

I took some pretty high doses of morphine and oxycodone while on divalproex. It didnt lower my tolerance any unfortunatly. I have never had the pleasure of taking GHB yet so i don't know how it interacts with that. Alcohol interacted with it badly and i got pissed much quicker then normal but every anti-convulsant/mood stabilizer ive tried has had that effect to various dergrees.

Some people find divalproex easier on the stomach but other then that all valproates are the same damn thing. I seem to have been lucky in the sense that i never got any side effects from divalproex (epival here in canada) not even weight gain. I didnt even get weight gain from it when i was taking seroquel along side it. I think it may have increased my depression but it's hard to say because i was also not on a anti-depressant at the time and valproates don't do anything for the depression aspect of bipolar. I was also not long on gabapentin which sometimes gives me depression and fatigue.

Unfortunatly it didnt do jack shit for my bipolar either and lamotrigine has worked much much better.

 

[sillysimon]

i got put on 400mg of sodium valproate, twice a day, for suspected epilepsy.

but since i haven't been any to drink any booze as it seems to react with these meds. had 1 drink and went all shaky,nausea and light headed on it.
and caffeine sets off my seizures.

so haven't been able to do anything for months.

anyone alse on this for epilepsy/seizures and takes the same medication and has tried any drugs, please let me know?

i don't want to go to the doctor and ask him if it's ok to use a certain drug on it. as he will just say avoid all recreational drugs as hes a useless cunt.
as he said that when i started on it and said i had to avoid booze.

i imagine weed would be ok?

stims probably not, certainly wouldn't want to risk anything like mdma as it could be cut with anything.
gbl i doubt would be ok, if booze ain't.

kratom or blue lotus are sedative/make u drowsy and so is the medication, so i dunno...

the main problems with interaction occur with: Chlorpromasine, alcohol, barbituates, asparin(!) and warfarin. valproates inhibit the herpatic metabolism of these agents.. phenytoin serum levels are increased by valproic acid. phenobarbital blood plasma levels are increased by up to 200% when taken together (similarly with mephobarbital andprimidone)
other than that, its fairly safe as long as you dont take with other CNS depressants

 

[Sturnam]

Monkey Mantra: My internet isn't the best, so by the time I was finally able to post that you had beat me to it. But really good info though, seems like most things are safe (at least according to your psych).

Even alcohol was ok? I guess that might be a liver toxicity concern, which as long as its moderate, probably should be a big deal? Maybe along the lines of not drinking alcohol when taking APAP chronically like in vicodin for pain management?

 

[Hammilton]

Yeah, same sort of thing, though obviously they damage the liver through different methods.

 

[paranoid android]

Oh by the way even though this has nothing to do with rec drugs (unless your taking aspirin with codeine or percodan) you can't take any aspirin while on valproate. It can cause a sharp rise in blood levels.

You probably already know that since im pretty sure it's on the PI sheet.

 

[elegy]

Do you know what you're talking about- at all?

Divalproex Sodium is exactly the same as Sodium Valproate and Valproic Acid are the exact same thing.

Divalproex Sodium is a mix of Sodium Valproate and Valproic Acid (on a 1:1 molar ratio).

Sodium Valproate is simply the sodium salt of Valproic Acid.

This isn't an issue of them simply having the same indications- they're the same fucking thing.

Arguing that they're not is about as stupid as claiming that cocaine freebase isn't scheduled because only cocaine hcl is explicitly listed in the Schedules.

That has been tried, and it failed, actually.

They metabolize into the the same substance, but the way they're metabolized is pretty fucking different. Different metabolisms = different side effects as well as different levels in blood. Calm yo bed.

But, back on subject - luckily, your seizures aren't full blown tonic-clonic ones. Have you ever gotten a CT scan and/or EEG?

 

[CH3CH2OH]

Gaain- The spams from Kratom could have easily been cause because it contains opiods. Opioids have a definate ability to cause spasms/involuntary jerks and myoclonic jerks.

I also believe at least some opioids can cause seizures or lower the seizure threshold.

 

[Hammilton]

They metabolize into the the same substance, but the way they're metabolized is pretty fucking different. Different metabolisms = different side effects as well as different levels in blood. Calm yo bed.

No, they are NOT metabolized into the same substance. They are the same substance to begin with.

Cocaine base and Cocaine HCl are the same things just as these are the same things.

No one can possibly take you seriously if you lack this basic understanding and the inability to admit wrong.

Sodium Valproate and Valproic Acid both dissociate to V- upon contact with water. The sodium salt leaves a Na+ ion, the acid leaves a H+ ion. The metabolism is exactly the same. Not just similar, but identical.

The only difference in metabolism is not a result of the drug, but rather the formulation. Depakote, the 1:1 molar combination is still instant release. Depakote ER, OTOH, is a sustained Release drug. It does have different pharmacokinetics, but the side effects are still identical.

Take a look at the PI sheets for the different drugs. You'll quickly see that they're practically identical. Minor differences in gastric side effects- which, as anyone capable of independent thought will tell you, is a result of formulation, not the drug.

 

[elegy]

Take a look at the PI sheets for the different drugs. You'll quickly see that they're practically identical. Minor differences in gastric side effects- which, as anyone capable of independent thought will tell you, is a result of formulation, not the drug.

Except the PI sheets don't differentiate between the different valproates. Look at them, they generally discuss merely "valproate."

Yes, they are very similar. Even the FDA doesn't bother to put any effort into distinguishing the valproates. But they're different enough to mention. They metabolize into the same substance, but the way they're metabolized by the P450 isozymes can be very different.

I think the problem here is that none of us are taking into consideration the differences between terms and how someone defines them. "Drug" to me, is not the same as "active ingredient." A pharmaceutical drug, to me, is a specific formulation, with specific pharmacodynamics and pharmacokinetics. Therefor, I see Depakote, Depacon, and Depekene as different entities.
To most people, I'm beginning to see, drug is the equivalent to active ingredient.

Not to mention I tend to split hairs. I've found a pretty decent explanation on the differences of the valproates, if you're interested in the link feel free to PM me. Especially if you're also into the whole psychiatric medications thing, you might enjoy the website in it's entirety.

BTW Sorry for hijacking the thread.

 

[Hammilton]

We're not talking about proprietary formulations. We're talking about drugs, and I think you're not getting it even still.

Sodium Valproate is EXACTLY the same as Valproic Acid because at the very second they dissolve into your body they dissociate leaving Valproate- which is why they're metabolized exactly the same way, because once they're in your body, they are exactly the same thing.

 

[immaturepoop]

Well the only difference of the two I can see is that the combination of both the acid and the sodium salt is marketed as having less side effects. The sodium salt itself supposedly causes more stomach irritaion which can lead to nausea. But, yes both are exactly the same since they both yeild the valproate ion in vivo...

 

[Hammilton]

Well the only difference of the two I can see is that the combination of both the acid and the sodium salt is marketed as having less side effects. The sodium salt itself supposedly causes more stomach irritaion which can lead to nausea.

As far as I can tell, this is only the result of formulation, not the drug.

 

[immaturepoop]

^ hmmm, I'm sure! It seems to be a money making ploy - reminiscent of adderall - to reformulate the drug into a 1:1 ratio of both forms and patent it and have it cost more than sodium valproate itself. Although I'm no expert on this sort of thing! haha

 

[The Monkey Mantra]

GHB and Valproate was FINE, just as an update. No shift in dose-response curve noticed. Was *less* fucked up slightly, if anything.

Oh, and Elegy? Valproate is valproic acid. Sorry bro, Hammilton's 100% correct. It's the exact same entity in your body, and whatever liver enzymes deal with it are dealing with it the exact same way.

 

[Aeon Psyche]

i got put on 400mg of sodium valproate, twice a day, for suspected epilepsy.

but since i haven't been any to drink any booze as it seems to react with these meds. had 1 drink and went all shaky,nausea and light headed on it.
and caffeine sets off my seizures.

so haven't been able to do anything for months.

anyone alse on this for epilepsy/seizures and takes the same medication and has tried any drugs, please let me know?

i don't want to go to the doctor and ask him if it's ok to use a certain drug on it. as he will just say avoid all recreational drugs as hes a useless cunt.
as he said that when i started on it and said i had to avoid booze.

i imagine weed would be ok?

stims probably not, certainly wouldn't want to risk anything like mdma as it could be cut with anything.
gbl i doubt would be ok, if booze ain't.

kratom or blue lotus are sedative/make u drowsy and so is the medication, so i dunno...

This is absolutely personal, I have figured out. Sometimes I can combine it with whatever I want and I have already pretty much combined it with so many dfferent types of drugs and I'll be ok and notice no difference and other times the stuff can give me a full blown psychedelic trips with strong and weird hallucinations when I for example take 50-200mg of trazodone. Which doesn't make any sense at all. But only when I am already in an atleast very light epileptic state because, say I've used stimulants or psychedelics a little bit of sodium valproate and valproic acid (As my pills are combined) can make this effect happen. And make my epilepsy worse and stop it a little at the same time. The last time I was on 2C-B and wanted the effects to go away I took some sedating pill and the trip indeed pretty much stopped but I had epilepsy and even fucking fainted while standing up. I got real dizzy and fell on the ground. Sober this stuff doesn't really affect me. I have had the same reation for example happen with two completely different drugs. Like. I take a sedative and I start hallucinating as if it were a psychedelic. I take a
completely different type of drug and get the same effect.

Here's my advice: Don't touch anything. Seriously. Only take these pills sober.

 

[Aeon Psyche]

GHB and Valproate was FINE, just as an update. No shift in dose-response curve noticed. Was *less* fucked up slightly, if anything.

Oh, and Elegy? Valproate is valproic acid. Sorry bro, Hammilton's 100% correct. It's the exact same entity in your body, and whatever liver enzymes deal with it are dealing with it the exact same way.

I have had problems with GBL as it made my epilepsy worse and the valproates made it also worse but kept me from fainting. Also tripping :s
I would blackout sometimes though, complete memory loss. But no GHB comas. I think. Or combined maybe.

What's a coma like? Is it like a blackout too?

 

[dragonxninjaxpowa]

This is absolutely personal, I have figured out. Sometimes I can combine it with whatever I want and I have already pretty much combined it with so many dfferent types of drugs and I'll be ok and notice no difference and other times the stuff can give me a full blown psychedelic trips with strong and weird hallucinations when I for example take 50-200mg of trazodone. Which doesn't make any sense at all. But only when I am already in an atleast very light epileptic state because, say I've used stimulants or psychedelics a little bit of sodium valproate and valproic acid (As my pills are combined) can make this effect happen. And make my epilepsy worse and stop it a little at the same time. The last time I was on 2C-B and wanted the effects to go away I took some sedating pill and the trip indeed pretty much stopped but I had epilepsy and even fucking fainted while standing up. I got real dizzy and fell on the ground. Sober this stuff doesn't really affect me. I have had the same reation for example happen with two completely different drugs. Like. I take a sedative and I start hallucinating as if it were a psychedelic. I take a
completely different type of drug and get the same effect.

Here's my advice: Don't touch anything. Seriously. Only take these pills sober.

hope to fuck i get on different meds then, as i would go really insane, if i couldn't do anything again. as i been doing drugs for years and booze since i was very young.

altho someone said things like weed would be fine on it.

 

[dragonxninjaxpowa]

would smoking mixes like the galaxy blends like rocket fuel or 99-chillin blend be ok on it, as far as not causing a drug interaction?

when i had the seizures first of all before i was on meds, all the legal smoking blends, weed, blue lotus, kratom didn't affect me.
only most stims and trippy drugs did.

would bitter orange (Citrus aurantium) not interact with sodium valproate?

as i have to admit i'm a stim type of guy, but would love to do stims again occasionally on it.
before when i wasn't on meds and first had the seizures, bitter orange and sida cordifolia was fine when i snorted lines of the powder. but didn't dare drop the capsule of either, just incase.

i'm more concerned about interactions with sodium valproate than the drugs giving me seizures. as if it gives me seizures, ill know not to do that one again.
but don't want some horrible interaction and end up unconscious, in hospital,coma or dead.

 

[paranoid android]

would bitter orange (Citrus aurantium) not interact with sodium valproate?

Bitter orange inhibits some liver enzymes so im not sure. It might be best to avoid that one. Or hammilton might have a better idea if it would be safe to use or not.

He knows more then me in either case.