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What do you consider to be, 'clean and sober'?

Tommyboy said:
This frustrates me in my outpatient group. People will be saying that are tired or something because they are adjusting to life without heroin, yet they are on 16mg of suboxone for their 2 bag a day dope habit. Then there's another kid saying how it takes a while to feel normal after getting clean, yet he's on 100mg of methadone so I don't get how he can say that since his body still has a high dose of opioids in it.

Don't get me wrong, I think that maintenance drugs are needed for a lot of people to transition from using heroin or other strong opiates to getting clean. I consider it a step towards getting clean, but I don't consider it being clean because anybody who has gotten off of maintenance drugs knows how big of a difference it is between being on them and being on nothing.

So to me being clean is being off of everything, and being on suboxone is being on suboxone. Same with methadone. I agree with someone else that said they prefer to just say that they are "in recovery" instead of clean, and everybody off of their DOC that has made lifestyle changes and wants to stay off of drugs is in recovery to me.
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Yeah I agree. I don't consider it "clean".. but it's definitely a form of sobriety.. to me, if I'm not ripping and running, sticking needles in my arms and hussling for dope, I'm clean.. haha. But I don't view it the same as being totally off of everything. That's being truly really clean.

However, the people that literally equate being on suboxone or methadone as the exact same thing as using heroin (I've heard this pov from a lot of people) are idiots.
 
imo you can do drugs if you don't go though the highs and lows and have negative consequences for your actions related to your drug use
 
neversickanymore said:
they are most likely tired because they are higher off the bupe than the H.


I agree with what you have said tommy.. and if they think it has been a challenge to adjust to life on methadone or bup as opposed to herion.. when they finally realize that their life is stifled by the maintenance and they make the real jump to living a life free of opiates then the will have a different standard to judge adjusting to life with out herion. As you said maintenance is good but jumping on subs to escape a two bag habit will most likely turn out to be a real nightmare decision.. given that there are much smaller doses available the dr that put them on that doesn't know what they are doing IMO.
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Well you know how it is, most people exaggerate their habit so they get put on a lot more than they need, especially since most doctors already over-prescribe. I did it when I was younger and it was a horrible kick since I didn't taper (I moved and the sub doctors there had a long waiting list and back then they were all saying that suboxone barely had any withdrawals so I just tapered for the last week or 2 I was on it and went from over 16mg/day to nothing). Now I look at the younger generation doing the same thing as me and try to warn them about what they are getting themselves into but you know how that goes.

A lot of inpatient rehabs are stating people on suboxone while they are still in there which I think it pointless (I think that they should wait to see how the patient does once they leave) and even detoxes are doing a methadone detox and then writing the person a suboxone script on their way out which is a complete waste IMO. If someone wants to be on suboxone then they should just skip the detox since they are going to be dependent on an opioid again once they take the suboxone so they should save the bed for the people that are trying to get off of everything. I'm sure that the majority of the people that are going to detox and leaving 4-5 days later with a suboxone script will be back in detox months down the line.

I have a pretty good memory and I was just thinking back on the 18 months that I was on suboxone and I barely have any recollection of that time in my life, and I remember thinking about how numb I had felt on it shortly after getting off of it. If I were to ever go back on it I would take 2mg a day and try for even less when I could, but hopefully it doesn't come to that. Like you I feel so much different when I was on a maintenance drug compared to being on nothing, so that's why I can't consider it being clean although I don't consider it using either. I guess it depends on who is asking. To most people who I wouldn't want to elaborate with I would say I was clean if I was on suboxone and nothing else, but to people who know about maintenance drugs I would say I'm off dope by being on suboxone.

Mr.Scagnattie said:
Yeah I agree. I don't consider it "clean".. but it's definitely a form of sobriety.. to me, if I'm not ripping and running, sticking needles in my arms and hussling for dope, I'm clean.. haha. But I don't view it the same as being totally off of everything. That's being truly really clean.

However, the people that literally equate being on suboxone or methadone as the exact same thing as using heroin (I've heard this pov from a lot of people) are idiots.
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Yea, I agree. I hate when people say that it's just trading one addiction for another (and if that were the case I'll take the addiction of putting a pharmaceutical drug under my tongue once a day and going about my business in a healthy manner over the one where I'm sticking street drugs in my vein all day and not being productive). To me it's a tool so you can buy time away from your DOC so that when you get off of it you have enough clean time that your chances of staying away from your DOC are a lot higher.
 
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Tommyboy said:
Well you know how it is, most people exaggerate their habit so they get put on a lot more than they need, especially since most doctors already over-prescribe. I did it when I was younger and it was a horrible kick since I didn't taper (I moved and the sub doctors there had a long waiting list and back then they were all saying that suboxone barely had any withdrawals so I just tapered for the last week or 2 I was on it and went from over 16mg/day to nothing). Now I look at the younger generation doing the same thing as me and try to warn them about what they are getting themselves into but you know how that goes.

A lot of inpatient rehabs are stating people on suboxone while they are still in there which I think it pointless (I think that they should wait to see how the patient does once they leave) and even detoxes are doing a methadone detox and then writing the person a suboxone script on their way out which is a complete waste IMO. If someone wants to be on suboxone then they should just skip the detox since they are going to be dependent on an opioid again once they take the suboxone so they should save the bed for the people that are trying to get off of everything. I'm sure that the majority of the people that are going to detox and leaving 4-5 days later with a suboxone script will be back in detox months down the line.

I have a pretty good memory and I was just thinking back on the 18 months that I was on suboxone and I barely have any recollection of that time in my life, and I remember thinking about how numb I had felt on it shortly after getting off of it. If I were to ever go back on it I would take 2mg a day and try for even less when I could, but hopefully it doesn't come to that. Like you I feel so much different when I was on a maintenance drug compared to being on nothing, so that's why I can't consider it being clean although I don't consider it using either. I guess it depends on who is asking. To most people who I wouldn't want to elaborate with I would say I was clean if I was on suboxone and nothing else, but to people who know about maintenance drugs I would say I'm off dope by being on suboxone.
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if the doctors only had a clue.. and i dont care what the reaction to this is.. and i metabolize methadone really quick.. really quick.. but i shit you not I could go from over 4oo mgpd roxie + 200+ mgpd methadone to ten or twenty mgpd just methadone for a a week week and a half with minor trouble, yeah i felt a little rough, but i functioned.... so IMO giving people this amount of maintenance just fucks them in the end.. thoughts?
 
neversickanymore said:
if the doctors only had a clue.. and i dont care what the reaction to this is.. and i metabolize methadone really quick.. really quick.. but i shit you not I could go from over 4oo mgpd roxie + 200+ mgpd methadone to ten or twenty mgpd just methadone for a a week week and a half with minor trouble, yeah i felt a little rough, but i functioned.... so IMO giving people this amount of maintenance just fucks them in the end.. thoughts?
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Most people have to learn for themselves, since they only hear what they want to hear. And as far as dosage goes, even when doing 8-10 bags of heroin a day I never took more than 6mg of suboxone the first few days because I would wait as long as I could before dosing it, and since I was pretty sick I was more likely to feel relief. By day 3 I would be down to 2mg and feeling alright, so these high doses are definitely overkill.

I think that a lot of people don't realize that just as long as you have even a low-mod dose of opioid in you you probably won't end up sick aside from a day or 2 of adjusting. It's when you stop that it really hits, which is evident with how tapering down seems so easy until you make the final leap to nothing.
 
Tommyboy said:
I think that a lot of people don't realize that just as long as you have even a low-mod dose of opioid in you you probably won't end up sick aside from a day or 2 of adjusting. It's when you stop that it really hits, which is evident with how tapering down seems so easy until you make the final leap to nothing.
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perfectly stated.. + infinity
 
i have a 1g+ mg oxy a day habit and i need 2.7mg sub IV 6x a day the first few shitty days then 3x a day to maintain but the first couple days are usually pretty shitty regardless what i do
 
neversickanymore said:
if the doctors only had a clue.. and i dont care what the reaction to this is.. and i metabolize methadone really quick.. really quick.. but i shit you not I could go from over 4oo mgpd roxie + 200+ mgpd methadone to ten or twenty mgpd just methadone for a a week week and a half with minor trouble, yeah i felt a little rough, but i functioned.... so IMO giving people this amount of maintenance just fucks them in the end.. thoughts?
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totally agree it just fucks them up in the end! as addicts we can get lost in this candy land of sorts with these legal scripts being placed into our hands. yes we have or most of us have very legitimate reasons to be getting these meds otherwise it would have to be a straight crooked doc. this oversight of medication management and letting things slide by till the wheels on the bus go pop, is not good practice on ether side. with addicts that want to be pro-active with their health and balance of recovery they really need to be straight up with their doc's and moreover with them selves. on how they want to address their health problems and medications that want to abstain from if able. as being our own patient advocates we need to bring these thoughts and concerns face to face with our main doc's. see if a connection of understanding and trust is there. building a positive relationship to better yourself while still receiving medical care for problems that do exist. if you find your self with a pill happy doc then you know it is not the best place to be with in your recovery. finding a doc that truly looks at your person and problems and starts out physical before developing the correct medications slowly and carefully and knowing what your DOC has been is crucial in building this part of the team.
 
Alotof people will disagree with me on this but for me as long as I'm off opioids i consider myself sober. I may occasionally use amps, cocaine, psychs.....but NEVER to the extent or causing the damage I inflict on myself and others while on opioids. Right now im detoxing off heroin/subox with lyrica clonazepam alprazolam and d-methamp. I hope this is the last kick.
 
^ I like the idea of "free from active addiction" for this and thats whats most important to me.

and I added methylphenidate to my last detox and thought it helped significantly so I bet you may be experiencing good things with the d amps?
 
I have high standards for clean and sober.

No addictive, abusive drugs, which goes from caffeine, tobacco and alcohol to sugar, to meth and opiates, to porn.
 
Mr.Scagnattie said:
You consider caffeine, porn, and sugar not being clean? That sounds like a pretty massive stretch.
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They're my standards, not yours.

To me, "clean" is "drug free." Caffeine is inarguably a drug. Sugar, once you do the research, clearly has drug-like properties.

If you're truly curious, I'll point you to my research. You can make up your own mind. Not interested in a debate, though.
 
so I bet you may be experiencing good things with the d amps?
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Accually yes, it seems to be helping quite a bit keeping me dosing once a day with a very low dose of bupe. I ended up breaking down and getting some subs. but now i'm using the speed to keep the bupe dose as low as possible and to taper. I wanna be done this time, i can't afford the habit or the shit that goes with it nomore.
 
^ I like the idea of "free from active addiction" for this and thats whats most important to me.
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Yep, if i'm not abusing drugs or harming myself or others i don't see an issue. It's funny i can use all sorts of addictive things no problems or even close but the opioids do something to me and send me over the deep end.
 
Mr.Scagnattie said:
To me, I'm sober as long as I'm off the H, even if I'm still drinking and on suboxone or something.

That's just how I personally view it though.. however, there have been times in my addiction where I was heavily using IV coke, and I'd consider myself clean just if I could stop doing that, even if I was still using H everyday.. :\

Addict logic.. 8(
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Yep, I've been doing loads of meth, mxe, coke and etizolam all weekend, but still feel clean and sober in the sense that I haven't touched heroin in two months.
 
I think many of us define "clean and sober" in a way that reassures us, in the sense that we define it in a way that makes us feel we have achieved something positive...

which is mostly a good thing but at the same time we can see the immense gap between all of our our respective definitions, whether it be the ideal of being "clean" with no sugar, caffeine and porn or "clean" but still using "loads of meth, mxe, coke and etizolam all weekend" but no heroin.
 
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