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What creates the greatest amount of good for the greatest number of people?

JustferFun

JustferFun

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Joined
May 24, 2009
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135
Prohibition OR the availability of safe, legal, regulated, cheap, mind-altering substances (that may or may not have medicinal properties)?

Discuss......
 
Obviously the second option. I won't even go into all the reasons safe and legal drugs make more sense. Just look at the other option: Prohibition. It does not work. It didn't work with alcohol (in fact it created a plethora of terrible new problems) and it hasn't worked with other drugs either.

But at this point I don't see any value in arguing about it. The debate has gone on for decades. Those on each side of the issue have made up their minds and they aren't going to budge. Sad but true.

Gimme something noncontroversial to debate-- like euthanasia or abortion.
 
jasperkent said:
Obviously the second option. I won't even go into all the reasons safe and legal drugs make more sense. Just look at the other option: Prohibition. It does not work. It didn't work with alcohol (in fact it created a plethora of terrible new problems) and it hasn't worked with other drugs either.

But at this point I don't see any value in arguing about it. The debate has gone on for decades. Those on each side of the issue have made up their minds and they aren't going to budge. Sad but true.

Gimme something noncontroversial to debate-- like euthanasia or abortion.
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It may seem pointless to argue about at present but it's the same conversation that ultimately got us decriminalized weed and now decriminalized psilocybin, in some places. I was halfway joking with the suggestive wording that I used in the question (I'm not biased at all ;) lol) but it's something that we should continue to talk about.

Now, more than ever, it's life or death. What else in the human experience has declined in quality over time? I know you know the answer but I still have to ask the question. We had pure opium thousands of years ago. Today, if you try to buy heroin, you might get something that you don't want and that could kill you. Opiates/ opioids are notoriously addictive but I'd rather have "controlled addiction" rather than something that creates so much societal harm. Addicts can still be good, functioning people. Some can't. But addiction doesn't have to ruin as many lives if it's treated as a medical problem.

Again, I know you agree with everything I just said but I wanted to say it anyways.
 
JustferFun said:
It may seem pointless to argue about at present but it's the same conversation that ultimately got us decriminalized weed and now decriminalized psilocybin, in some places. I was halfway joking with the suggestive wording that I used in the question (I'm not biased at all ;) lol) but it's something that we should continue to talk about.

Now, more than ever, it's life or death. What else in the human experience has declined in quality over time? I know you know the answer but I still have to ask the question. We had pure opium thousands of years ago. Today, if you try to buy heroin, you might get something that you don't want and that could kill you. Opiates/ opioids are notoriously addictive but I'd rather have "controlled addiction" rather than something that creates so much societal harm. Addicts can still be good, functioning people. Some can't. But addiction doesn't have to ruin as many lives if it's treated as a medical problem.(((

Again, I know you agree with everything I just said but I wanted to say it anyways.
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You're absolutely right.

I'm sore & tired and I responded with cynicism and apathy-- traits that are uncharacteristic for me. What I wrote was exactly the kind of thing that normally pisses me off and gets me riled up. Like when people say "Why bother voting? It makes no difference." That makes my blood boil-- especially when it's young people. Folks were jailed, beaten, and murdered for fighting for the right to vote. We have an obligation to at least make the effort. It doesn't hurt to try.

Progress often moves at a glacial pace and it's frustrating, I know. Actually, that metaphor may need to be retired since glaciers are now melting rapidly...but that's another issue for another day.

I need to grab a bite to eat and go to bed.
My apologies.
Carry on.
 
jasperkent said:
You're absolutely right.

I'm sore & tired and I responded with cynicism and apathy-- traits that are uncharacteristic for me. What I wrote was exactly the kind of thing that normally pisses me off and gets me riled up. Like when people say "Why bother voting? It makes no difference." That makes my blood boil-- especially when it's young people. Folks were jailed, beaten, and murdered for fighting for the right to vote. We have an obligation to at least make the effort. It doesn't hurt to try.

Progress often moves at a glacial pace and it's frustrating, I know. Actually, that metaphor may need to be retired since glaciers are now melting rapidly...but that's another issue for another day.

I need to grab a bite to eat and go to bed.
My apologies.
Carry on.
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No need to apologize. Your comments are still relevant and have value. Sometimes we feel a certain way at a certain point in time. At different points, under different circumstances, I might give the same answer.
 
Well, forms of legalization are less harmful, that's why they call it "harm reduction". It's important to remember that there is still harm, though.
Problem is the form that harm takes. The rubes notice people having problems with drugs, being wasted in public, etc.. Whereas they are used to and accept the harm from prohibition, OD's, crime, yada.

I'm going to take this opportunity to get on my soapbox about being responsible druggies. Legalization (pot) is being attempted in my conservative state. Whenever I talk about it to non pot smokers, trying to get their vote, their response is the same, "I will vote against it. I'm sick of smelling it."

No matter how much I tell them that second hand smoke is a separate issue, and that they do have a right not to smell it, they still intend to vote no. As responsible hippies, we have a responsibility to not turn people off to pot by smoking it around the straights.
 
Not having regulation is always the better thing
but after that, free good education and information it's the culprit for a good society.

it's like the Sun, itself it's just power, no control, just pure raw shit, but when it has the proper conditions (Earth) then it helps a Planet to flourish
 
Yes - when the Dutch legalized murder, the crime rate went down and the Dutch police were much happier.


 
I have always been a pro legalization of everything kind of person but I m having some doubts atm. Maybe you guys can help me out. Setting aside weed and hash that should be legalized everywhere (not because they are "harmless" but I mean wtf? Booze and cigarettes are legal !) let s talk about hard drugs like heroin and coke. I can think about two main pros of legalization :
1) people would have access to the real thing, know what they are using and how much they are using. Plagues like Fentanyl probably would not even exist
2) We will not give money to the likes of the Talibans- Ndrangheta-South American Cartels-etc
BUT :
legalization means availability and availability is a BITCH. I ve struggled with opioids and more recently with coke for the last 17 years, with a BS drug like..cigarettes I m not even struggling I feel really powerless AA style, don t even know where to start quitting because cigs are everywhere. I m sure alcoholics have a WAY harder time quitting their drinking than we coke or opioid users cos booze is available and socially accepted. I m doing lots of coke also because here in Brazil is...good, cheap and everywhere. If I was still in Europe I ld smoke my heroin and do coke only on special occasions. Can you see my point? What kind of legalization do we have in mind when it comes to heroin and especially coke? To give pharma grade heroin to addicts Switzerland style seems promising, but what to do with a super compulsive drug like coke? Not to mention stuff like meth ? Also, drug dealers will be out of business or invent some other shite- sell cheaper black market version of the legalized drugs ( i.e. what happened with cigarettes , back in the days in my South Italian hometown we ALL bought black market cigarettes?)

Definitely putting users in jail because they are users is the ultimate BS, definitely prohibitionism does not work, but I wonder what could really work, if anything....
 
skipjames said:
I have always been a pro legalization of everything kind of person but I m having some doubts atm. Maybe you guys can help me out. Setting aside weed and hash that should be legalized everywhere (not because they are "harmless" but I mean wtf? Booze and cigarettes are legal !) let s talk about hard drugs like heroin and coke. I can think about two main pros of legalization :
1) people would have access to the real thing, know what they are using and how much they are using. Plagues like Fentanyl probably would not even exist
2) We will not give money to the likes of the Talibans- Ndrangheta-South American Cartels-etc
BUT :
legalization means availability and availability is a BITCH. I ve struggled with opioids and more recently with coke for the last 17 years, with a BS drug like..cigarettes I m not even struggling I feel really powerless AA style, don t even know where to start quitting because cigs are everywhere. I m sure alcoholics have a WAY harder time quitting their drinking than we coke or opioid users cos booze is available and socially accepted. I m doing lots of coke also because here in Brazil is...good, cheap and everywhere. If I was still in Europe I ld smoke my heroin and do coke only on special occasions. Can you see my point? What kind of legalization do we have in mind when it comes to heroin and especially coke? To give pharma grade heroin to addicts Switzerland style seems promising, but what to do with a super compulsive drug like coke? Not to mention stuff like meth ? Also, drug dealers will be out of business or invent some other shite- sell cheaper black market version of the legalized drugs ( i.e. what happened with cigarettes , back in the days in my South Italian hometown we ALL bought black market cigarettes?)

Definitely putting users in jail because they are users is the ultimate BS, definitely prohibitionism does not work, but I wonder what could really work, if anything....
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Tutto quello al sud di Roma è l'Africa. Scherzo. Mia madre è Siciliana.
 
JustferFun said:
Tutto quello al sud di Roma è Africa. Scherzo. Mia madre è Siciliana.
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Guarda, alla fine é vero :ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO: Ma meglio africani che versione dei poveri dei tedeschi o dei francesi :ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO: Seriously I don t feel "Italian" but South Italian and we "mediterraneans " (South Italians, Greeks, North Africans, Turks, Spanish etc) have historically and linguistically and sociologically more things in common than , say, someone from the South of Italy and someone from Trento - Bolzano- Aosta. where are u from if u don t mind me asking?
 
skipjames said:
Guarda, alla fine é vero :ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO: Ma meglio africani che versione dei poveri dei tedeschi o dei francesi :ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO: Seriously I don t feel "Italian" but South Italian and we "mediterraneans " (South Italians, Greeks, North Africans, Turks, Spanish etc) have historically and linguistically and sociologically more things in common than , say, someone from the South of Italy and someone from Trento - Bolzano- Aosta. where are u from if u don t mind me asking?
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I'm American but both of my parents are from Italia. I've been there many times, mostly to Sicily. It's near Palermo. Si chiama Balestrate.
 
JustferFun said:
How do you miss a World Cup after winning the Euro? Mi rompono il cazzo.
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I m probably one of the few heterosexual Italians who do not give a shite about football, so non me ne frega un cazzo :p. Plus, the Italian football team is a good depiction of Italy : old, arrogant, pensiamo di essere i migliori in tutto e poi ce la prendiamo nel culo :ROFLMAO: :ROFLMAO: :ROFLMAO: I m glad that the Argentinians kicked the ass of France though, there are so many descendents of Italians there and the Argentinians worship anything Italian related. Moreover I was born in the 80´s and Maradona still means a lot to us ( in my city we are not fond of Neapolitans but many people support Naples anyway because of the good old memories...)
 
JustferFun said:
I'm American but both of my parents are from Italia. I've been there many times, mostly to Sicily. It's near Palermo. Si chiama Balestrate.
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Unfortunately I ve only been to Sicily once :( But I plan to go back there some day, it s an amazing place and today is way safer than during the 90´s. Have you ever listened to Rosa Balistreri? compared to her Billie Holiday is like Cindy Lauper . This is a song of her about snitches but I don t wanna hijack this thread paisá :p
 
AlsoTapered said:
Yes - when the Dutch legalized murder, the crime rate went down and the Dutch police were much happier.


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Dutch policemen are probably the only real life LE people I haven t despised. Shame on me, i was happy when they were around! They were professional, polite and did not gave a shite about you as long as you were not being violent-disruptive- a prick. Compare and contrast with the police back home, ruining your life for a gram of weed just because. At least here in Brazil you bribe them and that s it....
 
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