What aspects of the atheist religion do you like/dislike?

[ForEverAfter]

Yes, you can count down, but why not start at 0, if zero is not a unique number? If I told you to count to 1 how would you do it?

Why not count to zero by saying 0, or count to ten by saying 10?

I have no idea what you're talking about.
You're getting lost on counting now. What's your point?
What does counting have to do with anything?

 

[pmoseman]

Absence of belief or belief of absence are both atheism.
I suppose the latter is an aspect not well liked?

 

[swilow]

You're attacking on a lot of fronts foreverafter. Please re-read what I wrote because i would rather not continue discussing this with you. You are too argumentative and i would like to pull out of this topic.

 

[ForEverAfter]

Attacking?
Whatever, man. I re-read it.
Distance yourself from the lunatics.
I'd, honestly, prefer it that way.

This is no place to discuss God or religion.
And, it never has been.

Every time I post in here, I end up thinking it was a waste of time.
I'm tired of all the two-faced bullshit.
Eventually, I'll just stop.

It would be nice if this was a place that people with religious inclinations could feel free to discuss theology and religion, and - as a moderator - I don't feel like you facilitate that sometimes. The moderators of P&S, in general, have never been religious (since I've been frequenting the site). People shit on Christianity everywhere. Like I said, it would be nice if this sub-forum was different. But, I encounter the same level of stereotyping and pigeonholing and disrespect here as I do anywhere else. It's a shame, I think.

I'm being too argumentative for finally saying this?

Bullshit.
It needs to be said.

There should be a separate sub-forum called "theology and religion".

The absence of a belief is different to the presence of disbelief. I cannot tell if that statement makes sense.

Maybe you don't want to see that it makes sense.
It's not difficult to comprehend.

 

[Kid Amine]

Used to think I was atheist, but upon close examination of my beliefs, I'm antitheist. Faith is a great thing, religion is crap. Science isnt always right, but it does try to find the answers. If science was like religion, we'd be reading the same flawed text from 1500+ years ago. God(s) and Big Bang are not mutually exclusive ideas.

The biggest problem I run into (apart from people's irrational need to save my eternal soul while simultaneously not giving one fuck about my mortal coil) is a hatred of situational ethics, my morality and decision making based on my own views, not of a book's, nor a religion's.

I also find the "do good or you will be punished" or "do good because you'll get a better seat in the afterlife" arguments morally repugnant and reprehensible. You cant expect a karmatic response to doing good either, tho doing good will generally bring that about moreso than doing bad. and not everything is black and white.

I suppose my main problem with most religions is that they are sooo fkn sure they are right with little to no evidence to back it up. That goes well past arrogance into the realm of delusion.

 

[yotreeman]

Atheism is not a religion.

Atheism has no beliefs.

Atheism incorporates no sort of "faith."

Atheism is the lack of religion; it's the lack of faith in some sort of supernatural power.

 

[pmoseman]

Could there be a god? Sure. I choose not to believe in a god because nothing is forcing me to. I can't imagine what you would call that other than atheism. If someone thinks that they know there is no God, then that would be a belief system and it sounds pretty atheistic.

I do not believe there is a way to know if you could know or not. The only way you could know that is if there is no God; then you could not know.

It is by shear logic and it is not a problem I have seen with believing in God. I am not bashing on you. I have beliefs and want to be understood and it is friendly to share these thoughts

I could be right or wrong. I am only human after all. Do whatever you like. If you like God then go to town.

The problem I have with God religions, in general, is that It cares whether you believe in It. It is a recruitment mechanism. If your kids don't grow up baptized, Zionist, or soldiers for God, then by Jove they will burn in hell. Oh yes, naturally.

Hating God, fortunately! is not all that atheism means. God is a belief, in my view, and any god could possibly exist among the universe, or not. There might be unicorns but it doesn't keep me up at night; obviously, if you are familiar with Dawkins you are familiar with the broader definition of atheism.

 

[yotreeman]

I think it's funny when people try to accuse atheism of being a religion, it's kind of like they are saying, "atheism is a religion too and therefore also illogical"

Calling atheism a religion is like calling an empty box... well, a full box.

Atheism has no tenets/beliefs/faith in anything; atheism is the lack of belief in a supernatural power. Not that you are one-hundred percent sure of its nonexistence, just that you've seen no evidence of it and do not pretend to acknowledge or worship it.

 

[yotreeman]

It is by sheer logic and it is not a problem I have seen with believing in God. I am not bashing on you. I have beliefs and want to be understood and it is friendly to share these thoughts

Theism does become an issue when people take the words from their book of fairy tales, and try to force their implications and rules onto others. They seem to believe that since they believe in some metaphysical, omnipotent being in the sky, while lacking any evidence for such a being, that it should be flatly required for other people to follow said metaphysical, omnipotent, likely non-existent being's arbitrary and petty guidelines for life.

 

[ForEverAfter]

I am not bashing on you. I have beliefs and want to be understood and it is friendly to share these thoughts

I have no issue, whatsoever, with anything you've said.
(Aside from the pizza analogy.)

The problem I have with God religions, in general, is that It cares whether you believe in It. It is a recruitment mechanism. If your kids don't grow up baptized, Zionist, or soldiers for God, then by Jove they will burn in hell. Oh yes, naturally.

I don't know ANY religious people like that, at all.

Theism does become an issue when people take the words from their book of fairy tales, and try to force their implications and rules onto others. They seem to believe that since they believe in some metaphysical, omnipotent being in the sky, while lacking any evidence for such a being, that it should be flatly required for other people to follow said metaphysical, omnipotent, likely non-existent being's arbitrary and petty guidelines for life.

Again, I don't know anybody like that.
There are people like that, I'm sure.
But they don't represent religion.

Nor do militant atheists who want to convince people that God isn't real represent atheism.

Throughout P&S, people constantly refer to the militantly religious. But, where are they?
There's no sign of them, here. I never encounter them in real life.

Religious people tend to keep their beliefs to themselves.
For the most part, religion is not pushy.

There's a bunch of churches in my neighborhood, and they keep to themselves.
They don't go around preaching Christianity or trying to recruit people...

Honestly, I find atheists to be a bit pushier with their agenda.
There are a lot of people I know that love to shit on religion and "prove" that it's bullshit.
Hell, there are a bunch of people in this thread (and this sub-forum) who do the same.

Who are these militant religious types? And, where are they?
Who is trying to force you to be religious? (Nobody is trying to force me.)

Calling atheism a religion is like calling an empty box... well, a full box.

No it's like calling empty boxes (and full boxes) boxes.

If you believe that Santa Clause is real and somebody else doesn't believe that Santa Clause is real, both of you have beliefs about the existence of Santa Clause. They share a common denominator, because they are both beliefs (boxes). They are different beliefs (box contents), but they are still beliefs (boxes).

 

[yotreeman]

I don't know ANY religious people like that, at all.

Again, I don't know anybody like that.
There are people like that, I'm sure.
But they don't represent religion.

Nor do militant atheists who want to convince people that God isn't real represent atheism.

Throughout P&S, people constantly refer to the militantly religious. But, where are they?
There's no sign of them, here. I never encounter them in real life.

Religious people tend to keep their beliefs to themselves.
For the most part, religion is not pushy.

There's a bunch of churches in my neighborhood, and they keep to themselves.
They don't go around preaching Christianity or trying to recruit people...

Honestly, I find atheists to be a bit pushier with their agenda.
There are a lot of people I know that love to shit on religion and "prove" that it's bullshit.
Hell, there are a bunch of people in this thread (and this sub-forum) who do the same.

Who are these militant religious types? And, where are they?
Who is trying to force you to be religious? (Nobody is trying to force me.)

I am going to assume you are not American.

Because we do not have a single atheist in Congress. We've never had an atheist president. Republicans especially maintain their Christian faith will be a major influence on their policy decisions. Churches recruit and advertise, we have street preachers on plenty of city corners.

I've never personally met a "militant atheist"; but I grew up with ultra-conservative Christians.

Someone who's against gay marriage is pushing a religious agenda, for example. Laws regulating bullshit morality are a result of religion.

I find you never having experienced something along these lines as nigh-unbelievable.

 

[yotreeman]

If you believe that Santa Clause is real and somebody else doesn't believe that Santa Clause is real, both of you have beliefs about the existence of Santa Clause. They share a common denominator, because they are both beliefs (boxes). They are different beliefs (box contents), but they are still beliefs (boxes).

Incorrect.

A child believing Santa Claus is real, and basing their actions and life around said belief, maintains said belief system. A person who does not believe Santa Claus is real - nor any opposing mythical character - does not maintain a belief system of that sort. A religion necessarily employs faith and empirically-unsupported belief. Atheism does not; atheism's only requirement is you don't really think a god exists.

It's a lack of something. It doesn't hold to anything except not holding to anything.

 

[drug_mentor]

Throughout P&S, people constantly refer to the militantly religious. But, where are they?
There's no sign of them, here. I never encounter them in real life.

Religious people tend to keep their beliefs to themselves.
For the most part, religion is not pushy.

There's a bunch of churches in my neighborhood, and they keep to themselves.
They don't go around preaching Christianity or trying to recruit people...

Honestly, I find atheists to be a bit pushier with their agenda.
There are a lot of people I know that love to shit on religion and "prove" that it's bullshit.
Hell, there are a bunch of people in this thread (and this sub-forum) who do the same.

Who are these militant religious types? And, where are they?
Who is trying to force you to be religious? (Nobody is trying to force me.)

How many atheists have knocked on your door and subsequently tried to convert you to atheism? This has never happened to me, ever. I couldn't count how many times some denomination of Christianity or another has come knocking with their bullshit though.

How many atheists stand at railway stations and other public places handing out fliers about their beliefs? I have encountered this with various religions (again, mainly various denominations of Christianity) fairly often throughout my life. When I started University there were numerous tents devoted to different religions, some lady at the Catholic tent managed to corner me and berate me about how she wanted to "save my soul".

Even in the workplace, I have had numerous people try and convince me to join their faith. I used to work with a Muslim guy who kept trying to prove the Quran was true by relating it to passages from the bible, I don't think he understood the concept of atheism to be honest. Many Christians I worked with have also been pushy about their views.

Let's be honest here, organised religions (at least the Abrahamic ones) are all making an effort to actively recruit people, and they do this not only by pushing their message in public spaces, but by coming to your private home to bother you with it there. You can't compare atheism to that. Obviously, some atheists are fairly pushy about their views. Mostly, these people tend to be pushy inside the framework of a religious debate, they don't actually pro actively seek people to convert, in my mind that is a very significant difference.

 

[ForEverAfter]

I'm being honest.

I'm 30 years old.
Religious people have knocked on my front door less than half a dozen times, in my life.
They were not pushy, at all. If I asked them to leave, they smiled said "thank you" and left.

How many atheists stand at railway stations and other public places handing out fliers about their beliefs? I have encountered this with various religions (again, mainly various denominations of Christianity) fairly often throughout my life. When I started University there were numerous tents devoted to different religions, some lady at the Catholic tent managed to corner me and berate me about how she wanted to "save my soul".

I've seen one guy at a train station in my entire life, and he wasn't pushy either.
Never encountered anyone with a religious agenda on a university campus. (And I've studied at three universities.)

Even in the workplace, I have had numerous people try and convince me to join their faith. I used to work with a Muslim guy who kept trying to prove the Quran was true by relating it to passages from the bible, I don't think he understood the concept of atheism to be honest. Many Christians I worked with have also been pushy about their views.

In the workplace, the religious people I've worked with all keep to themselves and never mention that they are religious unless asked. I have never encountered a pushy religious person at work. And I've had multiple jobs (in different fields), over the past 15 years.

Let's be honest here, organised religions (at least the Abrahamic ones) are all making an effort to actively recruit people, and they do this not only by pushing their message in public spaces, but by coming to your private home to bother you with it there.

Organized religions have never made any attempt to recruit me, whatsoever.

You can't compare atheism to that. Obviously, some atheists are fairly pushy about their views. Mostly, these people tend to be pushy inside the framework of a religious debate, they don't actually pro actively seek people to convert, in my mind that is a very significant difference.

I've met a HELL of a lot more pushy/arrogant/smug atheists than I have religious people.
Religious people tend to have a bit more respect for atheistic perspectives than atheists do for religious inclinations.

...

I'm not being dishonest.
Maybe you live in the Bible belt in the US, or something?
Keep in mind, that doesn't represent the world.

You're lumping too many religions together.
I'd understand if you were talking about certain sects of Christianity.
The fact is, most religious people are not pushy (despite the stereotype).
I've been all over the world (60+ countries), and have confirmed this repeatedly.

All Abrahamic religions? WTF?
When was the last time a Jew tried to recruit you?

 

[ForEverAfter]

I am going to assume you are not American.

No, I don't.
And religion in the United States is NOT representative of religion world-wide.

I've never personally met a "militant atheist"; but I grew up with ultra-conservative Christians.

I've met very few militant religious types; but I grew up around militant atheists.

Incorrect....Atheism does not; atheism's only requirement is you don't really think a god exists... It's a lack of something. It doesn't hold to anything except not holding to anything.

No, I'm talking about the branch of atheism that specifically believes that God does not exist.
Not the (so-called) branch of atheism that "doesn't really think God exists".
(Which I've stated repeatedly.)

We've got crossed wires, I think.

...

I've encountered a fuck-load more people who push drugs than religion, yet drug dealers - generally - aren't pushy (at all). The few dealers that I've encountered who really try to push product are not representative of the broader drug-dealing world. Most dealers don't push drugs; most religious people don't push religion.

 

[methamaniac]

When we talk of religious people and atheists as having the same character of belief, are we committing an equivocation fallacy

Although I don't understand the desire to place atheistic belief on a standing with religious belief, as is sometimes doneonlyby the religious. Are they trying to degrade atheism by comparing it to their own views? That's crazy to me.Personally, I rather distance myself from those I consider lunatics

It's not a false equivalency. An atheist and a theist both have a strong confidence that their belief is the correct one.

Equating religious beliefs with lunacy would be an example of a false equivalency.

Atheism has no tenets/beliefs/faith in anything; atheism is the lack of belief in a supernatural power. Not that you are one-hundred percent sure of its nonexistence, just that you've seen no evidence of it and do not pretend to acknowledge or worship it

Let's be real, atheism isn't a lack of belief. It's a firm belief that no supernatural causation of any sort is responsible for your life- purely existing- or- in any other manner.
For example, there isn't even a remotely rational explanation for how a 4 bit code (DNA) could write/code, copy, translate, edit, and execute itself- from any known causation. An atheist must hold faith there is a unknown naturalistic mechanism than could cause this process and thus our origins.
Another example would be someone believing in multiple universes when confronted with evidence that our universe gives every appearance of being exquisitely fined tuned.
As a comparison, an atheist's God is " unknown natural mechanism" or "unknown natural force" - and he (or she) apparently has many powers.
I'm not trying poke fun of the religion of atheism, just trying to show both have equal footing in respect to belief.

it's like calling empty boxes (and full boxes) boxes

Or a spade a spade.

many atheists have knocked on your door and subsequently tried to convert you to atheism?

I have had many atheist try to convert me to their religion. I'll never forget this one guy, he spent quite a while trying to tell me how much better life is when you are free from religion (ironic?)
He said "the water is cold at first, but its refreshing".
I don't understand why a lot ( no not all) atheist want to spend time trying to covert you or "debunk" / make fun of religion. I mean I don't hang around 5 year olds and try to debunk santa claus. It bothers me not whether they believe in him or not.
In my religion I am suppose to share my faith out of love and concern for another person. And when I do so, it is always for this reason.

 

[ForEverAfter]

I have had many atheist try to convert me to their religion.

So have I.
I've lost count.

I don't understand why a lot ( no not all) atheist want to spend time trying to covert you or "debunk" / make fun of religion. I mean I don't hang around 5 year olds and try to debunk santa claus. It bothers me not whether they believe in him or not.
In my religion I am suppose to share my faith out of love and concern for another person. And when I do so, it is always for this reason.

+1

When people come and knock on your door, they don't want to convince you that you're an idiot or that you're crazy.
They're trying to help. Perhaps it is a misguided effort. But, the intention remains.

They are - generally - sweet, soft-spoken respectful people.
You don't have to speak to them. They don't chase you down the street.
If you don't want to speak to them about it, generally they accept that.

Whereas I've seriously lost count (it is in the hundreds) the number of times (socially) I've said that I believe in God and people have spent hours trying to convince me that I'm "crazy".

Equating religious beliefs with lunacy would be an example of a false equivalency.

Yep.

...

Thanks, meth.
It's nice to have some support.

 

[methamaniac]

Thanks, meth.
It's nice to have some support.

No prob, I see your point of thread and agree about certain religions being less tolerated on this forum.
I have a very strong faith with respect and in my time on this forum I have never tried to force it on anyone here.
Conversely, I have had several people try to attack aspects of my faith for seemingly no reason other than mockery.

 

[drug_mentor]

I'm being honest.

I'm 30 years old.
Religious people have knocked on my front door less than half a dozen times, in my life.
They were not pushy, at all. If I asked them to leave, they smiled said "thank you" and left.



I've seen one guy at a train station in my entire life, and he wasn't pushy either.
Never encountered anyone with a religious agenda on a university campus. (And I've studied at three universities.)



In the workplace, the religious people I've worked with all keep to themselves and never mention that they are religious unless asked. I have never encountered a pushy religious person at work. And I've had multiple jobs (in different fields), over the past 15 years.



Organized religions have never made any attempt to recruit me, whatsoever.



I've met a HELL of a lot more pushy/arrogant/smug atheists than I have religious people.
Religious people tend to have a bit more respect for atheistic perspectives than atheists do for religious inclinations.

...

I'm not being dishonest.
Maybe you live in the Bible belt in the US, or something?
Keep in mind, that doesn't represent the world.

You're lumping too many religions together.
I'd understand if you were talking about certain sects of Christianity.
The fact is, most religious people are not pushy (despite the stereotype).
I've been all over the world (60+ countries), and have confirmed this repeatedly.

All Abrahamic religions? WTF?
When was the last time a Jew tried to recruit you?

I am pretty sure we live in the same State, almost certain we live in the same Country. I live in Melbourne, Australia.

I must admit I have never had a jew try to convert me, I have had very limited contact with people of that faith for whatever reason.

All I can say is your experience is surprising to me, because it is pretty different to mine. I wont say the majority of those who have knocked on my door are pushy, but a few have been. The pushy ones tend to be the ones in public, and the ones I have encountered in the workplace. By no means am I saying that they are all pushy though.

Certainly, some atheists try to convert people. The main difference is I have never encountered an organised body of atheists who go around with the express mission to convert people. I have encountered these organised bodies of religious people trying to convert others who were Mormon, Catholic, Jehovas Witness and some more obscure sects of Christianity which I can't recall by name. This is a significant difference. Some individual atheists try convert people of their own initiative, the same is true of some individual religious people. But only religion regularly organises large groups of people to go around in public, and private, to try and change peoples views.

Have you ever heard of missionaries? I have never heard of atheist missionaries, only religious ones. They like to go to under developed countries and prey on uneducated people by spouting their nonsense. Religion also sneaks its way into addiction treatment to snatch up more vulnerable people, think AA and NA, Scientology also does it with Narconon. Remind me of the atheist treatment group again, that insists you must be atheist to recover from addiction. Oh right, there isn't one.

I am not saying all of these people are pushy and rude, but to say that "religious people tend to keep their beliefs to themselves" is very contradictory to my experience. I admit atheists are definitely more pushy than spiritual people who believe in god but don't follow a prescribed religion, but way less so than certain churches.

 

[ForEverAfter]

Certainly, some atheists try to convert people. The main difference is I have never encountered an organised body of atheists who go around with the express mission to convert people... This is a significant difference.

There is really no difference whether or not they do it in a group, or individually.
The result is the same.

I'm not arguing that atheist organizations are pushier than religious organizations.
I'm saying atheists are - generally - pushier than religious people.

Have you ever heard of missionaries? I have never heard of atheist missionaries, only religious ones.

Your arguments are silly.

1. Do atheists knock on your door?
2. Are there atheist missionaries?

No, there aren't atheist missionaries and atheists don't knock on your door.
But media is dominated by "the atheistic agenda".

Mainstream cartoons (Family Guy, The Simpsons, American Dad) sell atheism to children.

So, let's flip it around.

Instead of "are there atheist missionaries", let's ask do religious people constantly mock atheism (and promote theism) in mainstream media? There is significant peer pressure (from everywhere) to conform to the atheistic perspective.

religious people tend to keep their beliefs to themselves" is very contradictory to my experience. I admit atheists are definitely more pushy than spiritual people who believe in god but don't follow a prescribed religion, but way less so than certain churches.

The atheist "church" is - perhaps - the pushiest church of them all, IMO.

And religious people do keep their beliefs to themselves (generally). The vast majority of religious people you will encounter in your life will not identify themselves (out of context) as religious... It cannot be contrary to your experience, unless you happen to have asked everyone you've ever met if they're religious.

I am pretty sure we live in the same State, almost certain we live in the same Country. I live in Melbourne, Australia.

Maybe you live in the Bible belt of Melbourne, Australia?
I don't know, man. Maybe we encounter the same people and I just don't think they're pushy?
I've been living in this neighborhood for 2 years now. There's a church one minute away.
I've never gotten a single flyer in my letterbox, or a knock on the door.
They totally keep to themselves.

The only people that go door-knocking are Mormons (and other Christian cult groups).
Baptist churches, Anglican churches - the mainstream Christian churches - keep to themselves.
The same goes for missionaries.

You're not describing the activities of religious people.
You're describing the activities of fundamentalists who belong to specific sects.

I must admit I have never had a jew try to convert me, I have had very limited contact with people of that faith for whatever reason.

If you had more contact with Judaism, you'd know they don't try to recruit people.
So, the Abrahamic religions aren't all pushy.
What about Hindus? Buddhists?
Have you had contact with them?

I was married to a woman from a Hindu family.
They are not pushy, at all.

Maybe - if you're unfamiliar with Judaism - you don't have enough experience with (non-Christian) religious types to make sweeping statements about religious people...

What percent of religious types are pushy, do you think?
Less than one percent, I'd say. (Whatever it is, it's a low number...)

Catholics may be pushier than atheists.
Mormons may be, too.
But religious people?
No. That's wrong.

(And I'll keep pushing until you agree with me, God damn it! )