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What are chills?

Lightning-Nl

Bluelighter
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Nov 11, 2012
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I am referring to...

You know when you have to use the bathroom so bad that when you finally do, you feel so relieved so you get chills up your spine? What causes this?

My theory is a couple things....

To me, an intense relief of anxiety sounds like a casscading release of GABA. Which would explain the anxiety relief and relaxation you feel. However, I've never heard of GABA causing a rush.

So I possiblely thought it could be A release of Dopamine or Epinephrine. I base this on the fact that all survival activities cause the brain to release dopamine as a "reward". Using the bathroom is something that everyone has to do in order to survive so that's where that theory comes from.

But I am unsure. There is very limited resource on this subject floating around the Internet. So that's why I asked this here.

Does anyone here know what the exact cause of chills are? Thanks everyone!
 
I base this on the fact that all survival activities cause the brain to release dopamine as a "reward".

Dopamine is not a "reward" horomone. It is released in anticipation of reward - release is highest when there is only a 50% chance of getting a reward, at random. If you give a mouse a reward 100% of the time he presses the button, there's no longer a dopamine release. (More technically, only dopamine in the VTA/N.Acc is really a "reward" horomone anyway. if you release dopamine in other areas of the brain it just causes motion distubances.)

Does anyone here know what the exact cause of chills are?

I'm going to go out on a limb here and suggest, no. But we do know they are much more complex than a simple release of neurotransmitters.

I highly suggest you read this article on pleasurable chills in music listeners. The long and short of it is: yes, dopamine levels do rise, but it's only one small piece of the huge flurry of activity that happens when you listen to pleasurable music. Essentially, your pleasure circuits of all sorts light right up - quite reliably too. Since we can only really observe indirectly the chemicals in the brain, and nobody wants to give perople antidopaminergics to block the euphoria of music (too Clockwork Orange there for my tastes), that's where we stand.

(related reading on chills)
 
Dopamine is not a "reward" horomone. It is released in anticipation of reward - release is highest when there is only a 50% chance of getting a reward, at random. If you give a mouse a reward 100% of the time he presses the button, there's no longer a dopamine release. (More technically, only dopamine in the VTA/N.Acc is really a "reward" horomone anyway. if you release dopamine in other areas of the brain it just causes motion distubances.)

This is honestly one of the coolest things I've read in awhile. At least how you confined it into a nice paragraph. Would you mind posting the source of this info?
 
I always assumed the chills from urinating had more to do with the rapid exit of heat from the body than anything else, and the pleasure of it was simply the pleasure of relief.

Chills are very interesting phenomenon. I've been looking into them informally due to their prevalence in so-called "ASMR," which I'd like to see experimentally delineated, and because of the similarity these sorts of chills share with those commonly evoked by serotonin-releasing empathogens/stimulants. It's starting to look like the chills are associated with empathetic perception, and also that their psychoacoustic dimension (musical frission, chalkboard scratching) may have evolutionary roots in the sounds of primate warning calls.

Here's another full text
 
J Neurophysiol. 1994 Aug;72(2):1024-7.
Importance of unpredictability for reward responses in primate dopamine neurons.
Mirenowicz J, Schultz W.
We used single neuron recording techniques in two behaving monkeys to investigate the conditions in which dopamine neurons respond to primary rewarding or potentially rewarding stimuli. Animals received drops of liquid either outside behavioral tasks or as rewards during learning or established performance of an auditory reaction time task. Three quarters of dopamine neurons showed a short-latency, phasic response to liquid that was delivered outside the task without being predicted by phasic stimuli. The same neurons responded to liquid reward during learning but not when task performance was established, at which time the neuronal response occurred to the conditioned, reward-predicting, movement-triggering stimulus. These data suggest that the responses of dopamine neurons to rewarding or potentially rewarding liquid are due to the temporally unpredicted stimulus occurrence. A known, reward-predicting, tonic context does not prevent dopamine neurons from responding to the rewarding liquid. The responses during learning apparently occur because reward is not yet reliably predicted by a conditioned phasic stimulus. Because the unpredicted occurrence of reward is of central importance for learning, these responses allow dopamine neurons to play an important role in reward-driven learning.

J Neurophysiol. 1998 Jul;80(1):1-27.
Predictive reward signal of dopamine neurons.

Schultz W.
Most dopamine neurons show phasic activations after primary liquid and food rewards and conditioned, reward-predicting visual and auditory stimuli. They show biphasic, activation-depression responses after stimuli that resemble reward-predicting stimuli or are novel or particularly salient. However, only few phasic activations follow aversive stimuli. Thus dopamine neurons label environmental stimuli with appetitive value, predict and detect rewards and signal alerting and motivating events. By failing to discriminate between different rewards, dopamine neurons appear to emit an alerting message about the surprising presence or absence of rewards. All responses to rewards and reward-predicting stimuli depend on event predictability. Dopamine neurons are activated by rewarding events that are better than predicted, remain uninfluenced by events that are as good as predicted, and are depressed by events that are worse than predicted. By signaling rewards according to a prediction error, dopamine responses have the formal characteristics of a teaching signal postulated by reinforcement learning theories. Dopamine responses transfer during learning from primary rewards to reward-predicting stimuli.

There's even a cool slide to back it up with.

Scientists recorded the activity of dopamine neurons in the VTA of a rat (or presumably some other unfortunate little critter) and graphed them around the stimulus-reward interval, both before they learned the stimulus gave them a reward, during the process of learning, and then afterwards.

7r7pY5f.png

from the Neuron review on this

So what does this mean?
Let's say you live on rice and beans for a long, but indefinite period of time. You work 9 to 5 at Burger Parthenon and don't go out much. Now your friend Steve, from out of town, comes in and invites you to party with him. Steve is loaded, a trust fund kid. Maybe you don't trust him at first because of the social standing, or you don't like his cologne or whatever. But regardless, out of boredom, you go out with him, hit the bars, scope out girls (or guys, if that's what you're into). The novelty and feeling of freedom are liberating and make you feel awesome. That night you pass out exhausted, and return to your doldrum day job again. Steve calls you a few weeks later, the same things happen, you go out on the town and feel great, maybe even better than last time.

(A dopamine response is induced via pleasurable behaviour - wine women, and song - in response to a stimulus - Steve calling you)

Since Steve works on an oil rig far away, though, his visits are spotty at best. Steve calls you a few months later, the next time it happens, and then a week after that. Work at Burger Perthnon is hard. You eventually start to anticipate when he'll call - as soon as you see Steve's name flash on your phone you know you'll be having a good time again. You start to relax and feel better knowing there's plans for the weekend - even though they haven't been made yet because you haven't answered his call!

(The dopamine neuron response migrates from the reward = party - to the stimulus - Steve)


Eventually Steve moves next door to you. Seems like a good idea - you can hit the town on a regular basis. So you do. But once it's a planned thing and the Friday call comes in ... bar-hopping with Steve stops being so exciting. The magic is lost.

(The dopamine neurons adjust their response to a continuous reward in response to the stimulus).

The same thing happens in lots of scenarios, with any reward and stimulus.

It seems to me this system is in place for 2 reasons:
1. Discourage repetitive activity that results in no improvement to encourage energy be spent elsewhere - scratching of itches, sexual activity, defecation etc are normally pleasurable, but you don't see people fixate on them, usually.
2. Encourage novel risk-taking behaviours. If you go exploring and find a specimen of your favourite fruit tree in a hidden grove, bearing a delicious juicy fruit just for you, you'd feel more satisfied than going to a fruit orchard and picking a fruit from there. Both experiences are more rewarding than going to the supermarket - as long as you don't live on a farm, that is.

The theory that chills during urination are tied to heat loss makes more sense to me than urination being intrinsically rewarding. It is indeed critical to our survival - without waste removal one would surely perish - but in general, defecating more doesn't increase your prospects at advancing the species.

For most people I have to assume it is not going to be a random result whether their bladder is going to empty or not - and even then, I know of nobody toilet-trained who gets really happy when they have to piss, because of the upcoming reward!
 
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That was a great synopsis, thanks for putting that together sekio. I wish we could make this required reading for everyone that posts on ADD.
 
(More technically, only dopamine in the VTA/N.Acc is really a "reward" horomone anyway. if you release dopamine in other areas of the brain it just causes motion distubances.)

I'm not sure. If you're talking about extrapyramidal symptoms then they arise when you block dopamine receptors - plenty of antipsychotic are dopamine antagonist and cause motion disturbances.
The rest of your post is quite correct, I'll only add a couple of links to articles written by one of the most known neuroscientist studying reward

http://www.scholarpedia.org/article/Reward_signals
http://www.scholarpedia.org/article/Reward
 
That was a great synopsis, thanks for putting that together sekio. I wish we could make this required reading for everyone that posts on ADD.

I agree!!

Many people post in the advance drug subsection asking things that could have been found with a simple google search. It's quite frustrating explaining the complex mechanisms of the brain and central nervous system to someone who knows nothing about it.

Not trying to be mean, but I get tired of having to tell pot heads over and over again why THC is a drug. They argue "It comes from the earth, man!" But just because it comes from the earth doesn't mean that it's effects on the body aren't unnatural! You know what else comes from the earth? Morphine and Heroin (I know Heroin is synthesized, however, trace amounts of Morphine Diacetate can be found in the opium poppy.) And yet you don't see people rallying around opium do you?

Although, I'm not sure what that has to do with the body, or brain.....let alone the dopamine pathways, but you get my point ;)
 
Just thought I'd add (since I just thought of this) that chills, for me anyways, are always WAY more intense when on an Amphetamine or Opiate. For instance, when I use the bathroom after I've really had to go, I get chills and it's very relieving. However, when on an Amphetamine or Opiate, if I do the same thing, the chills are always WAY more intense, last longer, and "feel better." When on either of those, chills are literally like a mini-seizure.....that feels good.

This is what leads me to believe that chills are due to a neurotransmitter change up, rather than just an excessive expulsion of heat.
 
For most people I have to assume it is not going to be a random result whether their bladder is going to empty or not - and even then, I know of nobody toilet-trained who gets really happy when they have to piss, because of the upcoming reward!

Sometimes when I have to piss really bad I hold it for as long as possible because I know its gonna feel awesome when I finally let it out lol. Very informative read, thanks
 
I wonder if those electric shills are similar to the kundalini sensation they talk about in the east? If so, it means that the more spiritually realized you become, the higher up those "chills" go, until they reach the apex of the head.

Might not be the same thing though. Nonetheless I find this fascinating!
 
this is way interesting, i experience this sensation with some frequency, it is so hard to describe, like a warm buzzing energy that usually originates in the head and neck for me and will kind of work its way in "shivers" down my spine, how far down it goes depends on the length of the episode... for longer episodes, it feels like it comes in waves, the tingling sensation, from the head down. as i've gotten older i feel like i've almost learned how to prolong them a little bit, or, ensure that an episode will last as long as it possibly could, if that makes any sense... conversely i feel like i could choose to "work against" the feeling and kind of "shake it off" and it doesn't last so long... but i find the feeling quite pleasurable, personally, and i always try to prolong it as much as possible when it happens. sometimes it makes its way down to the ends of my hands and feet and i just physically shiver for a second, zap, like i was shocked... i never considered that others experience same, it's interesting to just have it hit me now that i'm probably not the only person who experiences this. no idea what causes it, i've experienced it since i was a child, way before i ever touched any kind of psychoactive drug (or really any kind of drug at all, i've been blessed to have always been fairly healthy). i do find that it will almost definitely happen during WD and subsequent recovery from opiate use and can often happen during after-effects of psychedelic use but most often it just hits me, mostly when i'm sitting around, or just walking somewhere... no correlation to time of day, whether i'm alone or with other people, physical activity, emotional state... sometimes my body just decides it wants to buzz. looking forward to reading more posts on this thread, both qualitative and quantitative.
 
pseudonym said:
Chills are very interesting phenomenon. I've been looking into them informally due to their prevalence in so-called "ASMR," which I'd like to see experimentally delineated, and because of the similarity these sorts of chills share with those commonly evoked by serotonin-releasing empathogens/stimulants.

ASMR-communities appear to have strong opinions about frisson, mainly that it is not to be grouped with ASMR. As someone who experiences frisson regularly (I'm not sure if music would be remotely the same without its appearance) but who's not sure whether he experiences ASMR, I'm pretty interested in what, precisely, this distinction is. I also consider this feeling one of the most pleasurable aspects of stimulants and entactogens.

ebola
 
SwampFox56,

I would say u r on track as to what causes it. I'll ask a DR being I work there in the lab. Whire I live in TN we call it a piss shiver LOL!!!

adams49
 
ASMR-communities appear to have strong opinions about frisson, mainly that it is not to be grouped with ASMR. As someone who experiences frisson regularly (I'm not sure if music would be remotely the same without its appearance) but who's not sure whether he experiences ASMR, I'm pretty interested in what, precisely, this distinction is. I also consider this feeling one of the most pleasurable aspects of stimulants and entactogens.

ebola

I've experienced both ASMR (I think) and frissons (I think), but it's so hard to tell with these loosely defined sensory phenomena. To me the frisson, or "chill" involves a component of excitement, high alertness, and the involuntary shiver. The ASMR effect, which I've only experienced fully on a handful of occasions, is more of a calming sedation, almost to the point of slipping in to a trance (in some ways resembling an opiate effect).

I think it's really interesting how different stimuli produce these responses in different individuals. For example I agree with you completely that stimulants/entactogens are a strong trigger for frisson, but I can't remember ever getting one from listening to music.
 
ASMR-communities appear to have strong opinions about frisson, mainly that it is not to be grouped with ASMR. As someone who experiences frisson regularly (I'm not sure if music would be remotely the same without its appearance) but who's not sure whether he experiences ASMR, I'm pretty interested in what, precisely, this distinction is. I also consider this feeling one of the most pleasurable aspects of stimulants and entactogens.

ebola
Adding to endotropic: the location of the chill and its associations are also different for me. Musical frisson is similar to the sort of chill I might get looking at a sublime scene like a clear night sky without light pollution or Niagra falls. It's associated with awe and radiates outwardly from my heart. The "ASMR" chill is almost ticklish on the back of my head, back, spine, and arms, is associated with relaxing feelings of euphoria, and is often evoked by situations that involve empathic personal care such as a haircut.

AMSR's associations with visuotactile stimuli and empathic personal care make me think perhaps it has something to do with low-grade mirror-touch synesthesia.
 
Wow...the frision I experience sounds more like your ASMR (though it bounces around, radiating out to my limbs and is more often associated with excitement than relaxation...though sometimes it's 'between the two').
 
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