Weed: Been There. Done That.

[nativenick]

i agree dude who wrote this article is an elitist asshole for sure. i blame the chronicly unemployed dudes and burn out teenagers that sit on there ass all day smoking a quarter or more everyday doin nothin but get high and playing viedeogames. people like that are the reason dudes be sneering down on people that get high. not all pot heads are like that for me weeds just a way to unwind after a days work or when im feeling particaularly stressed out. i rareley have more than 3 or 4 rips when im by myself at home and im good. i do enjoy smoking a quarter or more of weed in one massive sesh but thats usually only when i chill with friends. in the end its not the drug its the person and how they choose to use it

 

[scureto1]

Then if this is true, then you DO NOT agree with his article

I don't agree with the whole article, as I said :

This portion of this article reposted into this thread

...his whole point to the article is that the laws should never have been passed because the laws are what mold us as a people, society and culture. He feels that by the government passing these laws for legalization of marijuana (and if he feels that way about MJ I guaruntee you he wouldnt condone further legalization of other drugs) that the govt is encouraging us all to become lower class citizens who trade smoking MJ for developing any type of real culture and that because of this the govt is also encouraging/allowing us (because we all know we damn sure wouldnt know how to act if the govt didnt tell us how) to turn into a bunch of heathens.
He states, "I’d say that in healthy societies government wants to subtly tip the scale to favor temperate, prudent, self-governing citizenship. In those societies, government subtly encourages the highest pleasures, like enjoying the arts or being in nature, and discourages lesser pleasures, like being stoned.

In the other portions of his essay, I agree with his premise but disagree with the conclusions he draws from it. I -do- think that, in general, most other leisurely/cultural pursuits are more fruitful than smoking marijuana. I -do not- think that this means the government should be using force of law to force this belief on anyone.

This implies that since they ARE encouraging us rather than discouraging us to become a bunch of stoners that we will NOT be a "temperate, prudent and self governing" society. And since MJ will be legal and we will be encouraged to be stoners and therefore couldnt possibly be temperate, prudent and self governing we will all become the opposite..the opposite, by definition of temperate is:disagreeable, harsh, hateful, nasty, nervous, unpleasant, excessive, uncontrolled, violent etc. The opposite of prudent by definition is: careless, inattentive, nonsensical, rash, reckless, stupid, unwise and for self-governing, it is the opposite of being subservient and dependent. (definitions from http://http://thesaurus.com/browse/).

The point of his article being (and I guess this is the part you agree with) that weed is something for kids to try out and then outgrow. Because of this (and this is his main point) it is ridiculous and irresponsible of the government to legalize weed and therefore "encourage" the citizens to smoke weed and be stoned instead of doing their job and encouraging its citizens to enjoy more worthwhile pleasures such as "enjoying the arts or being in nature". Of course we all know, that by MJ being legal now, everyone who indulges will no longer enjoy these other higher, more worthwhile pleasures...we just arent capable of such.

His last comment being, "In legalizing weed, citizens of Colorado are, indeed, enhancing individual freedom. But they are also nurturing a moral ecology in which it is a bit harder to be the sort of person most of us want to be.. This is a perfect example of someone who feels that the government really needs to tell us how to act or we wont act the right way on our own....especially now that we are being encouraged (allowed legally) to smoke weed. I mean, he says it is just going to make it so much harder for us to be the person that we really want to be..you know, because we just have no self control. Now that it is legal that is all everyone is going to want to do. I am sure he is one of those that feels without the government telling us how to raise our kids and the laws that make sure we do it their way none of us would be responsible parents or that if we do not have laws limiting how much fattening food we can eat at a fast food restaurant then we would all just eat ourselves to death (and yes, granted, we have a lot of obese people in the US who do just that..but by God, who is the government to tell people what they can or cannot eat!!!)

Not that I am picking on you Scureto1 (though I do think that by your comments you did not read his article through or understand what his main point was..not that weed is something you outgrow-his main point was it was irresponsible of the government to pass such a law if they wanted this society to have any chance of not turning into a bunch of lazy, wild, violent pot smokers who would have no other interests in developing any type of higher culture or intelligence) it is just that people like this drive me nuts..we are just too stupid to make our own decisions and really need the government telling us how to live our lives day to day. What an arrogant prick the author is..

I think you are using hyperbole to justify a strong emotional response to what was actually a thoughtful, well-reasoned argument as opposed to the usual right-wing crazy-talk. He gave some real-life examples of people and what their journey with marijuana was like, people who I think every one of us can imagine as at least one person we have known in our lives. He didn't say anything about anyone turning into lazy, wild, violent pot smokers. He said smoking weed vs other pursuits is a subtle shift in the direction of being more lazy and less driven. For many people (including me), that is the truth. That's why I decided I didn't care for it. As for "outgrowing it", I don't particularly like that analogy for it, because it implies that smoking weed is immature and anyone with enough maturity will choose not to do it. For me, I'd just call it a phase, a time when I wasn't looking for a particular experience out of using drugs, I was just looking for fun, and a time when the side effects and mental slowness that came along with it didn't matter much. The situation changed and it wasn't for me anymore.

I did read his whole article - I just dissected it and found myself strongly agreeing with his interpretation of his and his friends' marijuana use, but disagreeing with his idea of what government's role in people's lives should be. Like your example about fatty foods. He is basically saying that weed is (generally) not a thing that grows people into better people, which I think is (generally) true. Then he goes on to say that government should be using force of law to nudge people into being better people, which I don't agree with.

 

[S.J.B.]

The guy doesn't get it at all. It's not about him and his rich white friends who got to smoke weed for a while and then forgot about it. It's about all the poor kids, and the ones who aren't white, and the ones who are more obviously deviant, who get CRIMINAL RECORDS and go to PRISON for doing the same thing that he was doing.

And since when was "enjoying the arts" or "being in nature" morally positive? It doesn't help anyone. It is just as hedonistic as drug use.

 

[gh0stmAn]

Tbf any activity has the potential of being mentally addictive. Wouldn't argue that physical addiction isn't a whole different level but to say that people cannot get addicted to weed simply isn't true. I know of many people including myself who have formed a negative habit around it.

TBF? wtf (what the fuck) does that mean? lol ... but seriously you are so wrong its not even funny.. TRUE REAL addiction can really only be applied to several classes of drugs and with my immense knowledge i would say those 3 classes are, well of course 1st as we all know and love/hate would have to be 1.) Opiates 2.) Benzos & Barbs (even tho barbs, which is a devastating addiction - are barely prescribed to anyone anymore) and 3.) Alcohol (though true addiction to alcohol takes many many years of abuse b4 it truly becomes an "ADDICTION").... I am sorry but ganjah is ANYTHING but addictive. Yes smoking bud can become a "HABIT" but NEVER EVER EVER EVER will it become a TRUE ADDICTION.. agree or disagree only those that agree are medically and philosophically right.. go ahead hate on.... but the truth is the truth no matter which way you slice it..

 

[scureto1]

TBF? wtf (what the fuck) does that mean? lol ... but seriously you are so wrong its not even funny.. TRUE REAL addiction can really only be applied to several classes of drugs and with my immense knowledge i would say those 3 classes are, well of course 1st as we all know and love/hate would have to be 1.) Opiates 2.) Benzos and 3.) Alcohol (though true addiction to alcohol takes many many years of abuse b4 it truly becomes an "ADDICTION").... I am sorry but ganjah is ANYTHING but addictive. Yes smoking bud can become a "HABIT" but NEVER EVER EVER EVER will it become a TRUE ADDICTION.. agree or disagree only those that agree are medically and philosophically right.. go ahead hate on.... but the truth is the truth no matter which way you slice it..

Take a look at this, from a journal article titled "The Neurobiology of Substance and Behavioral Addictions". The data there suggest that those addictions that you call "true addictions" share a great deal of traits with those that you call "habits". The fact that we don't fully understand how the pleasure, reward, and compulsion systems in the brain as well as we understand opioid/etc. receptors does not make the less-understood addictions any less real.

Abstract
Background
Several behaviors, besides psychoactive substance ingestion, produce short-term reward that may engender persistent behavior despite knowledge of adverse consequences, i.e., diminished control over the behavior. These disorders have historically been conceptualized in several ways. One view posits these disorders as lying along an impulsive-compulsive spectrum, with some classified as impulse control disorders. An alternate, but not mutually exclusive, conceptualization considers the disorders as non-substance or “behavioral” addictions.

Results
Growing evidence suggests that behavioral addictions resemble substance addictions in many domains, including natural history, phenomenology, tolerance, comorbidity, overlapping genetic contribution, neurobiological mechanisms, and response to treatment, supporting the DSM-V Task Force proposed new category of Addiction and Related Disorders encompassing both substance use disorders and non-substance addictions. Current data suggest that this combined category may be appropriate for pathological gambling and a few other better studied behavioral addictions, e.g., Internet addiction. There is currently insufficient data to justify any classification of other proposed behavioral addictions.

 

[Rybee]

The guy doesn't get it at all. It's not about him and his rich white friends who got to smoke weed for a while and then forgot about it. It's about all the poor kids, and the ones who aren't white, and the ones who are more obviously deviant, who get CRIMINAL RECORDS and go to PRISON for doing the same thing that he was doing.

And since when was "enjoying the arts" or "being in nature" morally positive? It doesn't help anyone. It is just as hedonistic as drug use.

What the fuck has being white got anything to do with this?

 

[gh0stmAn]

Take a look at this, from a journal article titled "The Neurobiology of Substance and Behavioral Addictions". The data there suggest that those addictions that you call "true addictions" share a great deal of traits with those that you call "habits". The fact that we don't fully understand how the pleasure, reward, and compulsion systems in the brain as well as we understand opioid/etc. receptors does not make the less-understood addictions any less real.

Well I will give you this...: The only "true addiction", as society and EVERYONE i seem to talk to about it, agree that smoking - aka cigs - nicotine could be considered a "true addiction" but even I don't believe this in my OWN MIND.. I have smoked enough cigs in my life to become what so many others that smoke would call "addicted" but yet when i would run out cigs or just not have them, not ONCE, NOT ONCE, have I ever been sitting there and been thinking "damn i NEED a cig right now to feel better/normal/good/whatever".... TRUE ADDICTION to me means that if you don't have the substance you are, well in simple mans terms, incapacitated... You can't get out of bed or face the world without the substance, you get physically AND mentally sick without the substance.... now come on! if you are trying to compare marijuana "ADDICTION" (lol what a joke) to opiate/benzo/barb/alcohol addiction then you need to go and experiment or WITNESS these TRUE ADDICTIONS i speak of..

 

[S.J.B.]

What the fuck has being white got anything to do with this?

I'm not sure how it is in the U.K., but if you are a white drug user you are much less likely to be arrested and convicted of a drug crime in the United States than if you are a black or Latino user.

 

[scureto1]

Well I will give you this...: The only "true addiction", as society and EVERYONE i seem to talk to about it, agree that smoking - aka cigs - nicotine could be considered a "true addiction" but even I don't believe this in my OWN MIND.. I have smoked enough cigs in my life to become what so many others that smoke would call "addicted" but yet when i would run out cigs or just not have them, not ONCE, NOT ONCE, have I ever been sitting there and been thinking "damn i NEED a cig right now to feel better/normal/good/whatever".... TRUE ADDICTION to me means that if you don't have the substance you are, well in simple mans terms, incapacitated... You can't get out of bed or face the world without the substance, you get physically AND mentally sick without the substance.... now come on! if you are trying to compare marijuana "ADDICTION" (lol what a joke) to opiate/benzo/barb/alcohol addiction then you need to go and experiment or WITNESS these TRUE ADDICTIONS i speak of..

There's a lot more to addiction than withdrawals. You're completely ignoring compulsion, dysphoria, etc. The fact that YOU did not become addicted to cigarettes doesn't prove anything except that your brain has a chemistry that can compensate for the addition and then removal of nicotine. Obviously not everyone's brain is wired that way, unless you're honestly trying to tell me cigarettes aren't actually addictive. The same type of brain-wiring applies to all of the activities that people develop compulsions for, as was shown in the article that I pasted from. Different people may do the same drug/activity at the same rate and for a multitude of reasons that aren't all understood, one may develop an addiction while the other doesn't.

You're throwing up a straw man when you claim I'm saying that heroin addiction and weed addiction are the same thing - obviously they aren't. That does not change the fact that some people find themselves unable to stop smoking marijuana even when they know it is causing them problems and would prefer to stop.

 

[opi8]

ghostman, you're arguing about physical dependance which is not the same as addiction.

 

[slimvictor]

Why isn't booze just a phase? Why is alcohol the mature drug? Why don't people decry stupid drunk's? I can do anything anything high that i can do straight including working. Just because the authour can't that means no one can? I am sick of people who used to get high who now support the war on some drugs while they get drunk. I consider booze immature and it's users mostly idiots. I don't write op-ed's on it though.

I agree with you that using cannabis use seems more "mature" than alcohol use.
Most teenagers like to get fucked up on alcohol, and to lose themselves, but fewer people like to "find themselves", which cannabis can help with. However, the latter seems more mature to me.

For me, alcohol is a drug for hiding from reality, but cannabis is a drug for experiencing reality deeply, in a heightened fashion.

I have been using cannabis for more than 25 years and am not even slightly bored with it.
I use it to paint, write poetry, do research in my field (a social science), philosophize, exercise, play music, relate to people, know myself, and basically to live as I wish I could live without it. It makes me a more conscious, creative, and kinder human being.

Alcohol numbs my physically and emotionally unpleasant sensations like tiredness and pain. It helps me relax but weakens my intelligence.

 

[Fellowed]

I'm not sure how it is in the U.K., but if you are a white drug user you are much less likely to be arrested and convicted of a drug crime in the United States than if you are a black or Latino user.

It's the same over here.....

>> http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2012/jun/12/police-stop-and-search-black-people

I think a lot of people tend to view things based on "class" rather than race over here though when discussing these issues, although that might just be me. Although as you can see being black still puts you at as disadvantage on top of being poor / working class.

I'd imagine it's the same over in the US but from the outside looking in it does seem that things are more categorised based on race over there. Surely people living in poor white areas are more likely to be arrested for drug offences then those living in richer ones?

 

[scureto1]

I agree with you that using cannabis use seems more "mature" than alcohol use.
Most teenagers like to get fucked up on alcohol, and to lose themselves, but fewer people like to "find themselves", which cannabis can help with. However, the latter seems more mature to me.

For me, alcohol is a drug for hiding from reality, but cannabis is a drug for experiencing reality deeply, in a heightened fashion.

I have been using cannabis for more than 25 years and am not even slightly bored with it.
I use it to paint, write poetry, do research in my field (a social science), philosophize, exercise, play music, relate to people, know myself, and basically to live as I wish I could live without it. It makes me a more conscious, creative, and kinder human being.

Alcohol numbs my physically and emotionally unpleasant sensations like tiredness and pain. It helps me relax but weakens my intelligence.

I don't think the preference for weed is a matter of mature or immature, just a function of what exactly you're seeking out of the experience and (if it has any costs to you) if it is worth the costs. Not everyone seems to get the slow-headed numbness that I do when I smoke weed, so for them I'm sure its a fine drug. Its a terrible one for me, does nothing good for me and causes me to act very anti-socially.

But I think alcohol, in moderation (~5 drinks max), is a decent social drug, although pretty harsh on the body. I really wish GHB could just totally subvert alcohol in every way - its just a better drug all around. You can have just a few grams and get ridiculous, or even go as far as to drink enough to pass out and all you're going to get hit with is a good night's sleep and maybe a slow morning, but nothing like an alcohol hangover. In fact, it is prescribed (rarely) for just that purpose.

Either drug can be used in a mature or immature way. Alcohol has its fratboys/drunken assholes/alcoholics and marijuana has its burnouts who smoke to zone out, just as alcohol has its social drinkers and marijuana has those who use it for mental/creative/spiritual enhancement. Its just that, unfortunately, there are a shit ton more of the problem people with respect to alcohol.

 

[slimvictor]

I don't think the preference for weed is a matter of mature or immature, just a function of what exactly you're seeking out of the experience and (if it has any costs to you) if it is worth the costs.

You are probably right about that.
I totally get that different people are affected differently by a single drug. So, what seems mature to me may be infantile to someone else.
Maybe I should have said something about how the effects I get from cannabis seem more relevant and helpful to this mature stage of my life than those of alcohol.

 

[exists]

Tbf any activity has the potential of being mentally addictive. Wouldn't argue that physical addiction isn't a whole different level but to say that people cannot get addicted to weed simply isn't true. I know of many people including myself who have formed a negative habit around it.

TBF? wtf (what the fuck) does that mean? lol ...

Judging by the context, it probably means "to be fair." Figuring out internet acronyms is a fun game

Anyway, there needs to be a better term than "addiction" to describe compulsive habits. Oh wait, compulsive habits :D

 

[exists]

For me, alcohol is a drug for hiding from reality, but cannabis is a drug for experiencing reality deeply, in a heightened fashion.

I totally agree with this. People who say potheads get high to escape reality must not have much experience with the substance. Escaping normal brain chemistry: probable. But taking cannabis, like you said, heightens the perception/experience of reality. Worrisome thoughts, anxiousness, happiness all become intensified. I consider cannabis a (somewhat fun & exciting) diagnostic tool. If something's bothering me, if will be mentally highlighted. What I feel during these experiences may cause me some uneasiness, at least until I deal with the problem in some way.

[Cannabis] makes me a more conscious, creative, and kinder human being.

Alcohol numbs my physically and emotionally unpleasant sensations like tiredness and pain. It helps me relax but weakens my intelligence.

Yes, they are two completely different mind states. It is much more helpful to contrast the effects of cannabis to alcohol than it is to compare them.

 

[gh0stmAn]

Judging by the context, it probably means "to be fair." Figuring out internet acronyms is a fun game

Anyway, there needs to be a better term than "addiction" to describe compulsive habits. Oh wait, compulsive habits :D

That is why I said people who "think" marijuana is "addictive" just confuses the MASSES of people out there that HEAR the word ADDICTION and then automatically compare it to ANY drug that someone becomes 'Addicted' to.. People that use ganja on a daily basis - its called a habit - ganja could never cause any mental or physical w/d symptoms... And don't give me that "oh well people get addicted to pot b/c when they come off it they say they 'get bored' "... come'on that is not an addiction, sober people that never have used drugs get bored.. I could get more detailed but were just gonna argue with these people that think pot can cause any kind of symptoms of TRUE ADDICTIVE DRUGS. Nothing about pot is addictive IME and everyone I know can agree... Sure you can say "man i would like to smoke some pot right now." but you will never hear someone be like "I NEED to smoke some pot right now or I am going to get sick and go crazy."

 

[neversickanymore]

IMO marijuana is addictive without a doubt. The difference is that a marijuana addiction doesn't ruin peoples life like other addictions. It seems to have consequences on peoples lives similar to a cafine addiction.

 

[S.J.B.]

It's the same over here.....

>> http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2012/jun/12/police-stop-and-search-black-people

I think a lot of people tend to view things based on "class" rather than race over here though when discussing these issues, although that might just be me. Although as you can see being black still puts you at as disadvantage on top of being poor / working class.

I'd imagine it's the same over in the US but from the outside looking in it does seem that things are more categorised based on race over there. Surely people living in poor white areas are more likely to be arrested for drug offences then those living in richer ones?

Both class and race are major factors. I couldn't say with certainty which is more significant when it comes to drug arrests.