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Weaponized Agents

I

iSlak

Greenlighter
Joined
Apr 2, 2006
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3
With all the Batman hype going on lately one of my friends asked me if it were possible to make a 'Scarecrow' drug. Doing some research on the history of narco-warefare some interesting projects from the 60s came up similar to the MKULTRA program. After some quick wiki work I came to this:

Hallucinogens – Anticholinergic Compounds & Deliriants

1. BZ , 3-Quiniuclidinyl Benzilate - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/3-Quinuclidinyl_benzilate
2. Scopolamine (Datura)
3. Atropine (Datura)
4. Hyocyamine (Datura)
5. Diphenhydramine (Benadryl)
6. Salvinorin A (Salvia)

Anxiogenics (Fear Inducer)
Ro15-4513 - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ro15-4513
CCK-4 - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CCK-4 (Added by mad_scientist)
DMCM - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DMCM (Added by mad_scientist)

Routes of Administration

1. Inhaler Aerosol form (BZ, Vaporized Salvia)
2. Skin & Eye Contact (BZ, Datura Compounds)
3. Oral and Insufflation
4. IM & IV Injections

Protective Measures
First, an adequate gas mask is a must for avoiding the initial aerosol inhalation. Secondly you’ll need to protect your skin from contact with the anti-cholinergic compounds which will poison an individual for days and requiring consistent medical attention during that time. The proper antidote(s) should be carried at all times.

Antidotes – Benzodiazepine Agonists & Antagonists “Fear Killers”
Ro15-1788 (Flumazenil): This compound should nullify the panic reaction of Ro15-4513. However it will not terminate the hallucinogenic experience. A cocktail of sedatives, such as benzodiazepines like Valium or Xanax would be advisable in this situation to calm the individual and avoid permanent psychological or somatic injury.
This section was noted by Ham-milton as ineffective. I currently dispute this, but I believe his advice should be taken into consideration.

Comments?
 
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how do you expect flumazenil- an antagonist to block the effects of an antagonist?

simply put: it won't. That's not how things work.

And how do you suppose a benzodiazepine agonist is going to be any good when an antagonist is already in the site?

this is pretty basic stuff (the antidote stuff) that you're confused about.
 
If you want a "fear compound" then something like CCK-4 might be a better choice...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CCK-4

Absorbtion could be a problem though seeing as its a polypeptide and presumably you will want to formulate it as an ultra-fine particulate so that you can dust it over a crowd, pretty small tetrapeptide though so it might well get absorbed through the lungs

DMCM is another one thats used to provoke anxiety in research, although with any of the benzo antagonists there will be a fine line between causing panic and just putting people into convulsions

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DMCM
 
Ham-milton said:
how do you expect flumazenil- an antagonist to block the effects of an antagonist?

simply put: it won't. That's not how things work.

And how do you suppose a benzodiazepine agonist is going to be any good when an antagonist is already in the site?

this is pretty basic stuff (the antidote stuff) that you're confused about.
Click to expand...
I was expecting an antagnoist to block the effects of an Anti-Agnost, not an antagonist. Feel free to call me out here, but shouldn't flumazenil reverse the effects of benzos? As for the benzo agonist and antagonists, I was thinking more in terms of damage control than a fully effective antidote, as they would act as competitors for the receptors. Though, the point is kind of moot since there might be a more novel compound to take its place like mad_scientist suggested.


mad_scientist said:
If you want a "fear compound" then something like CCK-4 might be a better choice...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CCK-4

Absorbtion could be a problem though seeing as its a polypeptide and presumably you will want to formulate it as an ultra-fine particulate so that you can dust it over a crowd, pretty small tetrapeptide though so it might well get absorbed through the lungs

DMCM is another one thats used to provoke anxiety in research, although with any of the benzo antagonists there will be a fine line between causing panic and just putting people into convulsions

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DMCM
Click to expand...
I like the way you think. CCK-4 looks promising as a safer alternative to a benzo anti-agonist. The overall goal would be to combine the traits of these various compounds, such as potency, pharmakinetics, and the ability to effectively distribute. I'll add CCK-4 and DMCM under fear inducers.
 
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I was expecting an antagnoist to block the effects of an Anti-Agnost, not an antagonist. Feel free to call me out here, but shouldn't flumazenil reverse the effects of benzos? As for the benzo agonist and antagonists, I was thinking more in terms of damage control than a fully effective antidote, as they would act as competitors for the receptors. Though, the point is kind of moot since there might be a more novel compound to take its place like mad_scientist suggested.
Click to expand...

And what do you think an "anti-agonist" is? It's a somewhat archaic term for "antagonist"- simply removed the double vowel sounds for a word that was easier to say.

Simply put, you can't use one antagonist to block another (and expect different effects) and you can't use an agonist to counter the effects of the antagonist.

So where Ro15-4513 is an inverse agonist, you'd only be making things worse by using flumazenil. Great idea if you want to induce seizures. DMCM has the exact same issues as all of these benzo inverse- and ant-agonists.


CCK-4 would be fine enough were it not for the super short duration. It's simply metabolized too quickly (and you're really limited on how you can administer it, if you could get it into the lungs, it may work, but even then it may not).

I would think that there might be some analogues of CCK-4 that might be more resistant to metabolism.

CCK-4 also allows you the ability to actually relieve (at least partially) the effects with a benzo.
 
Flumazenil is an antagonist but the compounds mentioned are inverse agonists - have a bit read about the neuropharmacology of benzodiazepines (an antagonist will block agonists as effectively as it will inverse agonists)
 
WHy not do what the Russians did in that hostage seige? Just pump aerosol 3-MF into the place. Anyone pretreated with an antagonist (I would choose nalmefene) would be safe...
 
fastandbulbous said:
Flumazenil is an antagonist but the compounds mentioned are inverse agonists - have a bit read about the neuropharmacology of benzodiazepines (an antagonist will block agonists as effectively as it will inverse agonists)
Click to expand...

But they're both going to result in the same effects.
 
There are some benzomorphan derivatives which produce extremely unpleasant psychotomimetic effects (cyclazocine), for example.
 
Ham-milton said:
But they're both going to result in the same effects.
Click to expand...


No they're not. Benzodiazepine agonists cause an increase in the size of the Cl- ion channel that results in reduction of anxiety, muscle relaxation, amnesia etc; inverse agonists cause it to reduce leading to increase of anxiety, convulsions etc. Antagonists reverse the effects of agonists & inverse agonist resulting in the ion channel becoming it's default/normal size (ie as if no drug had occupied the receptor site)

There are some benzomorphan derivatives which produce extremely unpleasant psychotomimetic effects (cyclazocine), for example.
Click to expand...

Even some that made it through to become medicines, like pentazocine, can be pretty unpleasant & disorientating
 
My doc

haribo1 said:
WHy not do what the Russians did in that hostage seige? Just pump aerosol 3-MF into the place. Anyone pretreated with an antagonist (I would choose nalmefene) would be safe...
Click to expand...


I had a long talk with my doctor after that horrible event. He's of the opinion, and ought to know (used to be an Army doc) that the aerosol used was a Fentanyl type drug, probably Carfentanil. He agreed that it was like stepping on a roach with a semi trailer...
 
presumably you will want to formulate it as an ultra-fine particulate so that you can dust it over a crowd, pretty small tetrapeptide though so it might well get absorbed through the lungs
Click to expand...
i gotta hunch this has been tested and maybe implemented in control locations, probably decades ago.
 
No they're not. Benzodiazepine agonists cause an increase in the size of the Cl- ion channel that results in reduction of anxiety, muscle relaxation, amnesia etc; inverse agonists cause it to reduce leading to increase of anxiety, convulsions etc. Antagonists reverse the effects of agonists & inverse agonist resulting in the ion channel becoming it's default/normal size (ie as if no drug had occupied the receptor site)
Click to expand...

I don't mean that they're going to do the same things in the brain. They are both going to have the same effect of producing panic, and potentially seizures.
 
CCK-4 also does not produce hallucinations - just anxiety - so inxay on the "Scarecrow" drug effect. BZ would be closer to what you are looking for, but BZ was pretty much scrapped as a weapon because its effects are both unpredictable and far too long to take effect. I can't think of anything beyond salvinorin that would produce an immediate and total hallucinatory state - but I don't think simply vaporizing salvinorin and spraying it on a group of people is going to send them all instantly to salvia bat country.
 
If you combined salvinorin A with CCK-4, milled down to <1µm particle size, it would make for a nasty psychotomimetic weaponised agent, both compounds are active in the microgram range, and have a similar duration of action. Salvia is often pretty dysphoric already, so combining it with a compound that causes panic attacks would be rather unpleasant! Whether this would be practical is another matter.

Also BZ is only the best known of a whole series of potent anticholinergic delirient drugs, some of which have much faster onset. Compound 34 from US4584378 has an onset of 5 minutes and an ED50 of 0.006mg/kg, so only slightly less potent than BZ and maybe 20x faster acting.
 
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*shudder*
That would be about as close to the scarecrow agent as I can think of, for sure... a fast acting anticholinergic added to the mix would make it even more terrifying but I suspect it would be plenty effective enough without it..!
 
^ kolokol-1 most likely is 3-MF. 3-MF = 3-methyl-fentanyl.

that's what haribo1 said.
 
^I didn't think ADD was geared towards harm reduction. If we were to strictly have harm reduction on BL, we'd have to drop Science & Technology, Philosophy & Spirituality, Current Events and Politics...well, you get the idea. The drug focus forums are for harm reduction.

I thought this was essentially a hobby forum for serious drug geeks. :)

The weaponization of drugs, while a taboo topic, is an interesting one, and I think it's definitely possible to have an intelligent discussion about it that doesn't veer off the established guidelines of Bluelight. No one's discussing how to make these things cheaply or convenient ways to gas a crowd of innocent people. That would be sick. Everyone here is just interested in the chemistry behind it all.
 
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