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  • EADD Moderators: Pissed_and_messed | Shinji Ikari

We want our MDA/Speed/MDEA/MDMA mix pills back NOW/MDMA isn't MDMA bollocks

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he has to be the son. the father is full of shit and the holy ghost is fictional. dee dee is the only one that talks sense at times. a bit like jesus
 
anistropic said:
he has to be the son. the father is full of shit and the holy ghost is fictional. dee dee is the only one that talks sense at times. a bit like jesus
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ok take your word for it as im a late comer to the conversation and not picking up well ;)
 
I got tired of no facts and just chit chat so I went on a hunt.
Believe it or not theres a discussion exactly the same as this on another drugs forum, with both sides arguing the case, although they are posting pure facts and they are almost at a conclusion.
 
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Try and ignore the swim and read this.

Recently SWIM and his hamster have seen two interesting threads which have crossed over a good bit and the hamster, being the curious creature that he is, thought he'd start a discussion regarding MDMA isomers and the two variations on the chemical structure the (S)-enantiomer and the (R)-enantiomer.

These are chemically the same compound, but slightly different in structure, this is chirality. In the case of MDMA, it is made up of common methylenedixoy/benzene rings, and the remaining which may be aligned one way or another creating a mirror image of the compound, or a "stereoisomer". These mirror images, or chiral properties, of each other exist in the phenethylamines of the amphetamine class. One is left oriented and the other is right oriented producing the S or levo enantiomer, and the other producing the R or dextro enantiomer.

However, this isn't always the case that they correspond, and the hamster would like someone to help verify this or add some clarification, though the hamster believes this to be the case since it is this way with amphetamine.

This is discussed in the thread where SWIM's hamster posted, discussing the differences in MDMA, in Adderall which is a 50-50 mixture of the dextro and levo-amphetamines. This combination of the two enantiomers is called a racemic mixture. It doesn't necessarily have to be a 50-50 mix, but might be different depending on a number of factors. Sometimes more of one enantiomer might be produced due to it being the first created in the reaction and then most of the subsequent reactions have an affinity to that enantiomer, or it could be due to polarization of a catalyst in the reaction.

These enantiomers can be separated a number of ways, and indeed the pharmaceutical companies do this in the case of Adderall which is a 50/50 racemic mixture. However, in most labs producing MDMA, there probably isn't the quality control or care going into producing the compound and there is probably more of one than the other.

In PiHKAL, Shulgin refers to these two enantiomers in this passage:

Quote:
Originally Posted by PiHKAL #109 MDMA
With MDMA, the usual assignments of activity to optical isomers is reversed from all of the known psychedelic drugs. The more potent isomer is the "S" isomer, which is the more potent form of amphetamine and methamphetamine. This was one of the first clear distinctions that was apparent between MDMA and the structurally related psychedelics (where the "R" isomers are the more active). Tolerance studies also support differences in mechanisms of action.
Now, this is interesting, in that Dr. Shulgin notes that the "S" isomer is "more potent" and the "R" isomer is "more active." Mr. Hamster isn't really sure what this means here, but with amphetamines, the levoamphetamine does not produce as dramatic neurological effects as dextroamphetamine. Levoamphetamine is even used in a popular OTC nasal inhaler in some countries.

Now, according to a popular online encyclopedia:

Quote:
If there is a pair of enantiomers, each with one stereocenter, then one enantiomer is R and the other is S, and likewise one enantiomer is levorotary and the other is dextrorotary. However, there is no general correlation between these two labels. In some cases the R enantiomer is the dextrorotary enantiomer, and in other cases the R enantiomer is the levorotary enantiomer.
Mr. Hamster has read that the "S" enantiomer is metabolized faster. That would mean that the "R" is not. This implies that these have different pharmacological properties. This would also make sense as the enzymes and the various receptor sites have different structural orientations as well. Due to the orientations of the active molecules to the receptor sites and metabolic enzymes would be expected to produce different results.

Here's an interesting bit of information the hamster read in paper STEREOCHEMICAL ANALYSIS OF 3,4-METHYLENEDIOXYMETHAMPHETAMINE AND ITS MAIN METABOLITES IN HUMAN SAMPLES INCLUDING THE CATECHOL-TYPE METABOLITE (3,4-DIHYDROXYMETHAMPHETAMINE):

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pizarro, et al., 2004
An analytical method has been developed to determine MDMA enantiomers and those from its major metabolites, 3,4-methylenedioxyamphetamine (MDA), 3,4-dihydroxymeth-amphetamine (HHMA), and 4-hydroxy-3-methoxymethamphet-amine (HMMA). It has been applied to the analysis of plasma and urine samples from healthy recreational users of MDMA who participated voluntarily in a clinical trial and received 100 mg (R,S)-MDMA · HCl orally. (R)/(S) ratios both in plasma (0-48 h) and urine (0-72 h) for MDMA and MDA were >1 and <1, respectively. Ratios corresponding to HHMA and HMMA, close to unity, deviate from theoretical expectations and are most likely explained by the ability of MDMA to autoinhibit its own metabolism. The short elimination half-life of (S)-MDMA (4.8 h) is consistent with the subjective effects and psychomotor performance reported in subjects exposed to MDMA, whereas the much longer half-life of the (R)-enantiomer (14.8 h) correlates with mood and cognitive effects experienced on the next days after MDMA use.
From this it seems the S enantiomer has a higher binding affinity to the liver enzymes and inhibits the R enantiomer from being metabolized. The two also seem to possibly be metabolized by different enzymes, due to different metabolites being produced.

So, with that bit of background and insight, the hamster would like to open this up for discussion. He'd write more about this interesting topic, but has written quite a bit and he'll turn the discussion over to others.

Some interesting points, would be:
Which is "better," the "R" or the "S"?
How does one categorize/name/refer/distinguish to these isomers?
Do some synthesis methods produce one enantiomer over the other?
If one is "better" than the other, then is there a possible way of separating the two and getting a higher ratio of the one that's better?
Is there a way to inhibit the metabolism of one over the other to produce a greater response by inhibiting certain CYP450 enzymes and increasing plasma levels?

Just some random thoughts the hamster has had while thinking about these threads. But what does he know, he's just a silly hamster who's headed back to his wheel.
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Here is another interesting quote by Shulgin (from: http://www.cognitiveliberty.org/shul...ve/isomers.htm)

"What was unexpected was that neither isomer gave the magic of the racemic MDMA. It was almost as if both the separate pharmacological components needed to be present to experience the unusual properties of this drug."

If different enantiomers of MDMA, or different ratios, are indeed on the streets that could certainly give explanations to reports of "loss of magic". Though the person that wrote this article doesn't think it's likely (http://psychedelicresearch.org/?p=78)

"...MDMA usually occurs as a 50%-50% mixture of two mirror image versions of the molecule (unless the chemist uses fancy synthesis techniques to make just one version, which they never do). "

However that was written in 2008. Are there new methods now? Or methods the author didn't know about? And would lab testing (ecstasydata) of either still show up as MDMA?
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so be it
 
ok just read this

If different enantiomers of MDMA, or different ratios, are indeed on the streets that could certainly give explanations to reports of "loss of magic". Though the person that wrote this article doesn't think it's likely (http://psychedelicresearch.org/?p=78)
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I mentioned this earlier in the thread. I was called a cunt for it.
I don't care anymore because no one can prove the quality or strength of these substances so this debate is pointless.
I don't like what is around these days.
Other people do.
The rest of it is chatting shit.
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Finally then, close the thread and move on, just dont start bringing it up again everywhere, the decision has been made you dont like the current pills other people do, good lets talk about something else.
 
I'm in full agreement with Evad on the facts.
I got pissed off with people chatting shit so asked the mods to close it.
It's been left open for people to talk about the quality mixed pills we used to enjoy mainly MDMA/MDA on it.
Unfortunatly people still want to chat shit.
I'm not a mod so don't have the power!
I do however dearly miss the pills from yesteryear.
I've just had 2 anadins for my headache and they contain caffeine!
What do you reckon? Will I get lucky!
 
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