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  • TDS Moderators: AlphaMethylPhenyl | paranoid android

WD blues, anyone?

DrinksWithEvil said:
mmmm i dunno about that. either on suboxone or not. you are still going to go through PAWS. which includes loss of motivation and the feeling of hopelessness. subxone just help you stay clean while you go through your PAWS phase of the whole getting clean process.
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Actually, suboxone being an opioid and all, you are not staying clean through the process, you are replacing one drug for another. It still comes with a withdrawal, and still keeps your natural endorphin and dopamine system shut down. A more accurate thing to say is it keeps you from using your drug of choice, just as methadone does. Both are replacement/detox opioid drugs.
 
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I sort of have to disagree. I see your point about the fact that it's an opioid and it keeps you strung along on it, which is certainly bad. But yet, if used as directed, I see it as a medicine and not as a drug. If physical withdrawal is the main reason a person is still using, then taking this medicine to prevent sickness is a true lifesaver and, imho, makes the person 'clean.' When I think of the word 'clean,' I think of someone who is consciously choosing to abstain from the recreational use and abuse of drugs, and if you're not abusing your medicine and are taking it to keep yourself from using, then you are clean. 'Clean' is a state of mind. For instance, someone who is locked up in jail might not be using drugs at the moment, but if they have every intention of going and getting wasted as soon as they're out, then they're not really clean.. they're more or less just 'dry.'
 
smackncheese said:
I sort of have to disagree. I see your point about the fact that it's an opioid and it keeps you strung along on it, which is certainly bad. But yet, if used as directed, I see it as a medicine and not as a drug. If physical withdrawal is the main reason a person is still using, then taking this medicine to prevent sickness is a true lifesaver and, imho, makes the person 'clean.' When I think of the word 'clean,' I think of someone who is consciously choosing to abstain from the recreational use and abuse of drugs, and if you're not abusing your medicine and are taking it to keep yourself from using, then you are clean. 'Clean' is a state of mind. For instance, someone who is locked up in jail might not be using drugs at the moment, but if they have every intention of going and getting wasted as soon as they're out, then they're not really clean.. they're more or less just 'dry.'
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I see your point and sort of agree as well. You are changing how you life and your decision making process while on suboxone. You are (or should be) trying to become a different person. I just think it sucks that people are duped in to believing they will have a mild (or sometimes even told none) withdrawal.

As addicts we look for instant gratification so if they were told the truth, this will instantly give you relief and will help you put your life back together but down the road you will go through withdrawal, addicts will opt for the instant relief and be able to mentally prepare for the WD that is coming weeks, months, years later when they jump off.

Either the doctors are lied to about suboxone having a WD or lie to their patients about it becasuse considered going on Sub 3 times and talked to 3 different doctors and they all said it had no withdrawal. So they were lied to or lied to me blantantly.

So yes you can start to recover, life wise, but physically suboxone prevents recovery. So it is a double edged sword. Like everything else it has it's pros and cons.
 
lozgod said:
I see your point and sort of agree as well. You are changing how you life and your decision making process while on suboxone. You are (or should be) trying to become a different person. I just think it sucks that people are duped in to believing they will have a mild (or sometimes even told none) withdrawal.

As addicts we look for instant gratification so if they were told the truth, this will instantly give you relief and will help you put your life back together but down the road you will go through withdrawal, addicts will opt for the instant relief and be able to mentally prepare for the WD that is coming weeks, months, years later when they jump off.

Either the doctors are lied to about suboxone having a WD or lie to their patients about it becasuse considered going on Sub 3 times and talked to 3 different doctors and they all said it had no withdrawal. So they were lied to or lied to me blantantly.

So yes you can start to recover, life wise, but physically suboxone prevents recovery. So it is a double edged sword. Like everything else it has it's pros and cons.
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I have something to say about this. I went on subutex and ended up on it for 8 months. i tried to taper and got down to .5 mg. and then jumped from there. I still had BAD withdrawals and I knew they were gonna last A LONG TIME. So I went back on a full-agonist. Oxy & Oxymorphone to be exact. I think its easier to go clean from a full-agonist that from Subutex or Suboxone due to the length of the withdrawal process. However, there is value in usind the Sub. short-term. On this detox I took 8 mg. of sub on day one and then 4 mg. on day two then discontinued the Sub. It got me through the worst of it then I just used other meds to help control my symptoms after that. I thing Subutex has a great value when used like this in a short to very short tapering program.

just my 2 cents.
 
lozgod said:
I disagree. Just look at Phrostbyte. He is weeks in to his cleantime and still has some withdrawal problems. Had he just CT'ed then he would be having a lot less issues by this time. Suboxone makes it worse IMO. Makes it take longer and it's effect on the K receptors adds a new (bad) twist on the WD and PAWS.

IMO you're better off accepting it's gonna suck but has to be done and dealing with 3-6 days of acute symptoms and short acting opiods have a shorter PAWS duration compared to Suboxone or Methadone.
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Maybe this has something to do with the reason why PhrostByte is no longer "completely clean". I ended up calling a friend looking for dope yesterday but he convinced me into taking suboxone instead. He had a strip.. I've never had a strip before, only sublingual tabs. Anyhoo, I ended up doing a little at a time but over the course of the night did the whole strip... I got so high I threw up. The only other time I threw up from sub was the first time I took it when I was opiate-naive...

I'm surprised at how low my tolerance is. If I had done dope I might have died. 8o
 
See im not talking about going on Sub. long term. Im talking about going on Sub just for 3 days after your last heroin dose, just long enough to get you thru the withdrawls. Thats what I always did, I didnt alow myself to get physically addicted to the Sub.

And I made it thru withdrawls painless, well pretty much painless, just alot of mental cravings.
 
Oh yeah this may seem weird to you guys.

But now that Im off everything, I wake up in the morning and rush to the fridge where I keep my liquid vitamin, and cant wait to take my daily dose of that. You can buy it at vitamin stores its 30 dollars for a months supply. Gives me energy all thru out the day and its actually good for you. Its my substitute for methadone these days.

By it being liquid your body takes in almost the whole dose unlike pills.. You guys should try it, give your body a break, its even a good idea for you guys who are still using, or who are in WDs.. Thanks guys for listening

Sean
 
I agree SececaRD! I take my liquid vitamins + liquid Amino Acid Supplement everyday!! And if you're in WD right now TAKE LOTS OF MAGNESIUM & POTASIUM TO COMBAT RLS AND MUSCLE CRAMPS!!!!

IT HELPS
 
i love my vitamins too, breakfast and vitamins, combined with aminoacids.:)

just came here checking on smackncheese, but i guess she's downtown now.




shit:!


Really shit.
 
SececaRD said:
See im not talking about going on Sub. long term. Im talking about going on Sub just for 3 days after your last heroin dose, just long enough to get you thru the withdrawls. Thats what I always did, I didnt alow myself to get physically addicted to the Sub.

And I made it thru withdrawls painless, well pretty much painless, just alot of mental cravings.
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I won't argue with anyone's experience but I don't see how this would prevent withdrawal. Granted you aren't addicted to Suboxone and go through suboxone WD but will still go through WD due to the lack of opiate receptor activity.

When one is addicted to any opiate, another opiate will stop WD from setting in due to receptor agonism. Some would need more/less dosage than the DOC but opiates/opioids on the receptors stops withdrawal. When they leave the receptors WD begins.

I'm surprised at how low my tolerance is. If I had done dope I might have died.
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That's how a lot of people OD, especially coming out of jail. Tolerance drops quickly during/post WD. People use the dose they are used to and bam, dead or in the back of an ambulance waking up to nalexone.
 
^
The difference is in the degree of the WD.

I've always found cold turkey to be particularly rattling, so much so that it only makes me want to use more.

A taper allows you to still function at least.



Why would you jump off a 40 floor building when you could climb down a ladder and hop off the steps?
 
Carl Landrover said:
^
The difference is in the degree of the WD.

I've always found cold turkey to be particularly rattling, so much so that it only makes me want to use more.

A taper allows you to still function at least.



Why would you jump off a 40 floor building when you could climb down a ladder and hop off the steps?
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Well a 3 day taper from 8 to 4 to 2 is like jumping 20 stories at a time. Your brain isn't adjusting to that taper that quickly. I have done it and it did lighten the load some and by day 5 I was good to go, but I've been good to go by day 5 CT too so I don't know if the suboxone made it any easier or not.

The more intense and shorter the acute symptoms, the quicker the recovery. Precipitated withdrawal from Naltrexone like rapid detox has SOME people up and functioning 48 hours later. I've never heard of someone being good 48 hours later CT or using suboxone.

I have a bunch of 50mg naltrexone. I've been considering biting the bullet and taking one followed by 100mgs of valium and praying I can handle it. The by-product of Naltrexone last 28 hours so it could work out with the valium or I could go through 28 hours of hell, so I haven't done it. PW from suboxone was bad enough to scare me away from voluntarily trying PW as a cure to the acute phase of WD.
 
I recommend the short bupe substitution. Anywhere from 3-7 days sounds like it would help a lot. It might be prolonging the withdrawal a bit.. but it's also dampening it a lot. I think it's worth it.
 
In my case it pretty much masked the WDs.. Virtually no WDs or pain at all. Plus Im able to sleep at night 8 hrs......

Its the only way to go if you have access to SUB.
 
SececaRD said:
In my case it pretty much masked the WDs.. Virtually no WDs or pain at all. Plus Im able to sleep at night 8 hrs......

Its the only way to go if you have access to SUB.
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How did you feel after the bupe was out of your system. Generally you are talking about 3-5 days due to the half life. I've tried the short bupe tapers and all seemed good until the 3rd to 5th day then the withdrawal started and it didn't seemed any lessened. That's my experience. I know everyone will have a different experience and mine isn't the end all.

I'm just saying short term bupe tapers don't work from my experience. They seem to work until it is out of my system then all hell breaks loose.
 
Id say it cuts down the wds so you only feel a little less than a 1/4 of them after everythings out of your system. Very managable.

Has anyone heard from SmackNCheese???? Im a little worried
 
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