☠ WARNING ☠ Warning: Mislabeled Batch of 2C-B-Fly That Has Caused Deaths

[joanmiro]

the spanish guy "antoniomiro" took between 1 and 5mg. and was 75h. tryping. Yesterday I spook with the doctor who is supporting this guy. She told me nobody schould beginng to do selftests with small dossages, and nobody should have the stupid idea sell this BDF as Liquid or put it into blotters...

If they are more deaths, police will find you for sure!

That's me. I wasn't tripping per se for that long, but feeling effects, yes. And I still feel them. And I also agree with the woman who is helping me, who is a doctor of pharmacology, BDF should have never left the lab.

I have a question.

If these deaths and heavy trips are the result of (mere) BDF overdoses, would tachycardia, cardic arrests and hypothermia be logical results of vasoconstriction?

As fas as I know the biggest problems that arose with the BDF 'victims' all included major vasoconstrictory issues... and so far I have heard of no one complaining about vasoconstriction.

What gives?

Have you read my experience on erowid? My main symptoms were extreme cold, tachycardia and high blood pressure...that clear enough for you?


Honestly the fact that people are even considering taking this stuff, after what I've been through in the past week is unfathomable to me.

I thought that this was a harm reduction site?

I have been harmed by this material, and I am trying to prevent others from suffering the same, or worse, fate as me.

Don't mess around with this stuff!!!

 

[Snapinho]

I wasn't implying that people should take this stuff, in fact I agree wholeheartedly with you! I was trying to make sense of the side effects people experienced on BDF, and comparing them with the (side) effects people like you suffered after having taken this substance / mixture / whatever.

Because, if these vary substantially, this could indicate that another substance was having effect. Right?

And dude, I did read your report, which to me was very insightful. Thanks for that.
In fact, that's why I mentioned hypothermia, tachycardia and cardiac arrest. That last thing is what killed both 'Brian' and probably the Danish guy too, iirc... (not sure on the last one though).

 

[joanmiro]

I wasn't implying that people should take this stuff, in fact I agree wholeheartedly with you! I was trying to make sense of the side effects people experienced on BDF, and comparing them with the (side) effects people like you suffered after having taken this substance / mixture / whatever.

Because, if these vary substantially, this could indicate that another substance was having effect. Right?

And dude, I did read your report, which to me was very insightful. Thanks for that.
In fact, that's why I mentioned hypothermia, tachycardia and cardiac arrest. That last thing is what killed both 'Brian' and probably the Danish guy too, iirc... (not sure on the last one though).

Yeah well...I'm still experiencing effects. I don't really want to talk about them until I know exactly what they are.

That's why they are planning to give me a CAT scan and other tests to see if they are physical or psychological. If they are physical, and non vaso-constrictory in nature, then probably the impurities are to blame.

From what's been explained to me I'm also suffering from some mild PTSD, and that definitely feels accurate. Now we are trying to figure out the extent of that, and to which extent my effects are physiological results of the intoxication.

And yes, from what I've read the Danish vendor died from heart failure.

 

[moniorojo]

PTSD is Post Traumatic Stress Disorder?!

 

[invert]

from wikipedia

When blood vessels constrict, the flow of blood is restricted or decreased, thus, retaining body heat or increasing vascular resistance. Cutaneously, this makes the skin turn paler because less blood reaches the surface, preventing the radiation of heat.

This would explain the hypothermia I think, I may be wrong though, I'm no expert

Wouldn't that imply hyperthermia (excess body heat) rather than hypothermia?

 

[moniorojo]

Wouldn't that imply hyperthermia (excess body heat) rather than hypothermia?

What I understand is that the skin turns pale and cold and does not radiate heat. As I said I am no expert.

 

[joanmiro]

PTSD is Post Traumatic Stress Disorder?!

Yes

The whole thing was extremely traumatic and if I don't specifically think about things then I don't remember them...even the days before this happened I don't really remember. and since. The time is just passing and I can remember events but if I dont concentrate on it, than I don't remember the time passing at all.

 

[invert]

What I understand is that the skin turns pale and cold and does not radiate heat.

Yeah, but the passage you quoted from wikipedia said that the body retains heat, and is unable to radiate (i.e. get rid of) heat. That would, I think, result in the body being hotter than normal, internally. If something cannot radiate heat, it gets hotter inside. If it can radiate heat, it loses that heat and becomes cooler inside. Yes, the skin might be cold (not sure, though, and what you quoted doesn't say that: it only says the skin would be pale), but the internal body temperature (which is what determines whether one is hypothermic or hyperthermic; and which is what is measured by a thermometer if it is placed under the tongue or in the rectum) would be hot.

I'm not an expert either, and I may be way off the mark with my understanding of this, but that seems to be what the words mean, as far as I understand it. Also, I thought drugs that produce vasoconstriction (stimulants, broadly) typically produce overheating, not overcooling.

If my understanding of this is right, it seems surprising that vasoconstrictive bromodragonFLY alone would produce hypothermia rather than hyperthermia.

 

[iom]

I do believe that 5HT2a psychedelics in general induce mild degrees of vasoconstriction (which can limit blood flow to the skin) and hyperthermia (increase in internal body temperature). For reasonable doses of psychedelics, these effects are not of medical concern. The cold feelings one gets on psychedelics are due to these properties and are similar to getting chills during the onset of a fever in sickness.

I also believe vasoconstriction arises due to direct action of the chemicals at 5HT2a receptors in the blood vessels whereas the body temperature rise occurs through a combination of CNS activity (in the hypothalamus?) and secondary effects of vasoconstriction.

Note that either of these effects may contribute to psychedelic toxicity. I recall a rumor that the patient in the 2C-T-21 fatality had a temperature of 107 deg F! There are also assorted reports of psilocybin mushroom fatalities in children also accompanied by hyperthermia. Likewise, gangrenous extremities have been reported in DOM overdose as well as other B-DFLY cases.

The take home message is that all these drugs can be toxic if taken excessive doses. Don't let LD50 studies in animals fool you into thinking a huge safety margin exists in people. Moreover, just because someone survived dose X with compound Y doesn't mean everyone else will too. That one person emerged unharmed from a 12 mg B-DFLY experience says nothing about how others will fair. We all possess differing sensitivities to the drugs and to their potentially toxic effects.

 

[iom]

My only bromo-dragonfly experience was ruined by my impatience. I IV'd 750 micrograms and all I noticed within the first hour is colors/patterning, maybe 10% of the intensity of visuals from a normal 'dose' of LSD. That's when I decided to add sublingual DOI. I guess it could have taken 3+ hours for IV bromo-dragonfly to kick in though.

That bromo-dragonfly + DOI experience was one of the greatest trips I ever had, but who knows if bromo-dragonfly played any part in it. I thought the colors/patterning after injection were placebo, and they may well have been.

I'm glad you had a positive trip, but it would have been very interesting if you hadn't taken the DOI and still ended up with a strong trip. Since the IV route completely bypasses the GI system and liver, such evidence would strongly support the hypothesis that B-DFLY has poor blood brain barrier permeability and might therefore exhibit stronger peripheral toxicity compared with other psychedelics.

 

[Snapinho]

Interesting posts. However, I still do not really understand whether the effects the victims experienced can rationally be related to what other people reported on high dosages of BDF.

What I got from the wikipedia link on hypothermia, is that vasoconstrictory effects on the extremities can be the result of hypothermia... but not the other way around. Can someone enlighten me on this?

I still get the feeling (but am far from an expert) that these effects could be contributed to something that is not BDF. Someone else get that same feeling?

 

[iom]

Interesting posts. However, I still do not really understand whether the effects the victims experienced can rationally be related to what other people reported on high dosages of BDF.

What I got from the wikipedia link on hypothermia, is that vasoconstrictory effects on the extremities can be the result of hypothermia... but not the other way around. Can someone enlighten me on this?

I still get the feeling (but am far from an expert) that these effects could be contributed to something that is not BDF. Someone else get that same feeling?

The body has several ways of maintaining its temperature. They include: (1) altering your metabolic rate (how fast your liver or muscles burn through calories); (2) sweating (when water evaporates it takes A LOT of heat with it); and (3) changes in the proportion of blood flowing to the skin.

As long as the temperature outside your body is lower than body temperature, more blood to the skin results in a reduction of body temperature because the heat in your body is being circulated to the skin where it is then transfered to the surroundings. Paradoxically, a person often feels warmer when there is more blood going to their skin because most of the temperature sensing neurons are in the skin. This is what the Wikipedia article describes as paradoxical undressing which is very common with alcohol since alcohol increases blood flow to the skin while overriding the body's thermal regulatory systems.

Perhaps a more intuitive way to think of things is that whether your skin feels warm or cold indicates whether your body is trying to cool itself (warm feeling) or warm itself (cool feeling). If you've had fevers, you might notice you feel chilled during its onset but then feel very warm as it breaks.

Another analogy that might be helpful if you know anything about cars is to think of your blood vessels as being the hoses and your skin as the radiator.

 

[psood0nym]

With this graphics you cann't know what byproducts this are.

You need tu know the atoms of the byproducts and then assamble it into a molecule that make sense.

If the byproducts ar 5%, and the active dossage of brdrgfly is 0,3 mg to 1 mg.
http://www.erowid.org/chemicals/bromo_dragonfly/bromo_dragonfly_dose.shtml

It means that 5% of (0,3 - 1mg) is: 0,015 - 0,05 mg or 15 - 50 ug.

one of the guys take 18mg. = 900ug. of byproducts.

I think no toxic substance schould kill you at this dossage. I think the people died from a overdose of brdrgfly, not because the byproducts.

The quality of RC from China normally are 98%. This brdrgfly have a regular quality, not different like the majority of RC that we buy.

For example: I have a batch of analyzed 2CB. The result was 97% 2CBhcl and 3% Acetyl-2cb

Thank you for the explanation. I assume the mass spectra of the two other humps can be attained? I agree that the impurities most likely are insignificant at the dosages that have been reported, but it would still be good to know what they are.

If that measurement wasn't taken, I assume in your example acetyl-2C-B and only acetyl-2C-B is an expected measurable byproduct of 2C-B synthesis using a known synthesis route, and, if so, it might also be expected from a known synthesis route of bromodragonfly that there would be roughly equal amounts of 2 and only 2 other chemicals in the mix that would show up on this test (for example, rather than only x chemical or x, y, and z chemicals in different relative proportions expected using other known synthesis routes)? If a certain synthesis route is implied by such a profile perhaps that gets us one step closer to identifying what the two impurities that can be seen by the test likely are and whether it's probable that there could be highly toxic impurities in this batch that might not show up on the test. Or are there just too many possibilities for such a correspondence to be strongly indicative of anything?

 

[Snapinho]

Maybe too obvious, but I take it the Chinese vendor has been informed about these events? And I also assume no reaction from his side?

 

[sh4mw0w]

Wow some of the people here are as dense as bricks

Let me clear some things up for you.

1) Bromo-dragonfly is DANGEROUS. Death is a possibility if you take this compound.

2) Overdose can include cardiac arrest, vasoconstriction, rhabdomyalysis, amd acute kidney failure. If you survive an overdose, you can expect PTSD and HPPD for some period of time.

3) The bromo-dragonfly in the deaths based on the GC/MS appears relatively pure (95percent). There are very few impurities that will have an effect at the 5% level. Thus, the overdose deaths can be principly blamed on bromo-dragonfly -- not the "impurities".

4) You have a man on this board, who by some miracle survived, who is explaining to you the terrible effects that happened to him at several milligrams, yet you are still inquiring about ingesting this stuff? Do you have a death wish?

 

[Somapolis]

I think its confused with something else. What is it with these swedish/ Danish girls dying all the time? Happened so many times with RC's (4mmc for example).

Well, I think we got two confirmed deaths caused by Bromo-Dragonfly in Sweden. The number one reason that this happened was because a creep sold this very potent substance in 1 gram package for under 100 $. In Sweden we don't have any "analog act" and the legal drug market, therefore, is chaotic. When one substance is about to be illegal the vendors puts it on sale. So it was tempting for some ignorant kids to buy this.

Of course, here and in many other countries a lot of people that are buying these drugs don't have any ideas about how to use them properly. When 4-AcO-DET was popular it surely caused some bad trips here because irresponsible people fucked up the dosage but even a very high dose of that wont kill you. The big difference of course is, BRDF is not forgiving at all.

The girl that died last december had been taking a pretty low dose of mephedrone and I'm quit sure that it, alone, would not been enough to kill most people. Speculations have been made about that the epilepsy medication she was under had something to do with it.

(Sorry for bad grammar).

 

[Dragynfyr]

If some of you are crazy enough to still insist on trying this stuff under the assumption is IS clean dragonfly, I really hope you're at least smart enough to know how to properly dose it out.. be careful in your reckless endeavors..

 

[Damien]

If some of you are STUPID enough to still insist on trying this stuff under the assumption is IS clean dragonfly, I really hope you're at least smart enough to know how to properly dose it out.. be careful in your reckless endeavors..

That's how I'm reading it.

 

[Dragynfyr]

^ yeah I was kinda hoping it would be interpreted as such by working the 'smart' in haha

 

[psood0nym]

Maybe too obvious, but I take it the Chinese vendor has been informed about these events? And I also assume no reaction from his side?

No one (or any group) guilty of, what looks to be, at least criminally negligent multiple homicide, among other things, will implicate themselves by responding in any way beyond hiding. Dealing with bromo-DFly at all is another level of recklessness beyond dealing with designer stimulants even; there's a market of consumers out there incapable of weighing out a single dose of it who own collections of other powders that have threshold doses that are typically far above its demonstrated lethal dose. Way too easy to fuck up really bad with at multiple points from production to consumption--clearly.