Opioids Vitamin C: Opioid Addiction Cure?

[George D Henderson]

this is interesting and it may have some very minor effects but clearly it would have very little effect on really bad wd's

I like the word "clearly" in this context. If there is such a thing as wishful thinking, "clearly" its opposite also exists. Eeyore, I think that if anyone is resistant to placebos, you will be. So what have you got to lose by trying this protocol?
I think that with addiction you get to a point where you don't want cures to work. Because if you come off drugs, you have to deal with life - guilt, poverty, hard work, responsibility, sex, you name it.
I actually reckon it is better to get the nutritional and psychological angle fixed BEFORE you come off - reduce then, but come off completely when you have a better life and a healthier body to go back to.
Coming off drugs is only half of it.
Eeyore, you are living proof that methadone causes depression. So was I; now I am living proof that nutrition can cure that depression (and I had Hep C too) even before you quit 'done. Opiates, and their metabolism, use up vitamins and block the absorption of minerals. For example, demethylating methadone uses up folic acid (which is where the methyl group goes), which you also need to make antidepressant hormones like acetylcholine and noradrenaline - but this is just a tiny part of what goes on. Addicts become protein deficient and insulin resistant (which gives you the sweet tooth), and end up eating a diet high in gluten (also an opioid) and carbohydrates, which would screw up someone not on drugs. Addiction is an obsessive-compulsive disorder, which is a type of inflammation of brain cells (it's more than just a physical dependence on an opiate). You become more sensitive to glutamate, less sensitive to GABA, and this creates a "learning" imbalance that over-rides your good sense (the same thing happens in alcoholism and self-harm syndromes). Junk food, of course, is high in glutamate (e.g. MSG) and gluten, which is 45% glutamine/glutamate and elevates serum glutamate. So, it's not all about endorphins. Opioid addiction causes a specific form of malnutrition (there are more opiate receptors in the gut than anywhere else, which is why you get constipated on junk).
And so on. I'm not an expert - you really should listen to the doctors who are experienced in opiates and nutritional therapy here.

 

[George D Henderson]

What I find fascinating about the study below, is that rats can actually make vitamin C and make more under stress. So if administering vitamin C to rats has this effect, when rats are not even a vitamin-C deficient species the way humans are, that testifies to it being a strong effect and there potentially being a much stronger effect in humans.
Note that it mentions the glutamate effect in addiction.

Ascorbic acid decreases morphine self-administration and withdrawal symptoms in rats
Pathophysiology, Volume 12, Issue 2, Pages 103-107
H.Alaei, M.Esmaeili, A.Nasimi, A.Pourshanazari

Abstract
Recent studies have indicated that the glutamatergic system is involved in the motivational aspects during the initiation of drug self-administration. Ascorbic acid (AA), an antioxidant vitamin, is released from glutamatergic neurons, and it modulates the synaptic action of dopamine and glutamate. In this study the AA effects on the self-administration of morphine and on the morphine withdrawal syndrome have been investigated.

Wistar rats were allowed to self-administer morphine (1mg/infusion) during 10 consecutive days for 2h/session. The number of lever pressings was recorded. An intrapritoneal AA injection (500mg/kg, i.p.), 30min before morphine self-administration produced a significant decrease in the initiation of morphine self administration during all sessions. After the last test session morphine withdrawal symptom signs (MWS) were recorded after naloxone precipitation. Most of MWS (but not all) were decreased by AA application. In conclusion, AA may change the motivational processes underlying the morphine self-administration.

 

[George D Henderson]

If rats make vitamin C, why do they get addicted in the first place? Because they are kept in over-crowded cages and subjected to vivisection on a whim. They experimented with rats kept in an open, natural enclosure ("Rat Park"); the rats experimented with drugs but never became hooked. And hooked drugs put in Rat Park all came clean fairly quickly.

Why do some people feel methadone right away if it takes ages to "come on"?
Firstly, it takes ages to peak in plasma, but methadone in plasma is not bound to receptors; receptor binding may happen preferentially.
Secondly, most of the body's opioid receptors are in the gut and many are directly connected to the brain via nerves, some of these are in the mouth and stomach.
Thirdly, drugs can enter the bloodstream thru veins in the cheeks and under the tongue - this is how buprenorphin works.
Fourthly, the body stores endorphin (and even some methadone) and this could be released when the info comes in that one is "safe" for now.
Fifthly, there could be a placebo effect, but what is it? Is it a magical event? If it is caused in this case by taking the drug, is it even a true placebo effect?
The apparent "placebo" magic here is probably caused by false assumptions about how methadone works; the fact is that no-one really knows (or cares) how methadone is metabolised (most drugs are used in ignorance of what really happens to them; especially compared to vitamins, a certain knowledge of the metabolism of which is an essential part of the science of Biochemistry), so it is just some doctor's outdated opinion versus our own experience.
Vitamin C, by the way, does not cause kidney problems, indeed it has been used to prevent kidney stone. This is just another out-dated myth. It's easy to theorise about what side effects something might have, but if this never happens in real life, you need to let it go at some stage. In the case of vitamin C, myths that were debunked 100 years ago are still running strong - makes you wonder.
Even the iron connection - a small amount of vit C (like all non-chelating antioxidants) enhances absorption of iron in people who are iron-deficient. But no-one has ever tested whether it increases iron in people who are not deficient. By making iron more mobile, it may even help people with high iron get rid of some - we will never know until it is studied.
You cannot assume the normal reaction from what happens in an extreme state.
Animals with very high vit C levels (by human standards) have normal iron metabolism.

 

[George D Henderson]

Here are the real side effects of using vitamin C for opioid detox
* if you use ascorbic acid orally while still on methadone, large amounts acidify the urine; this will cause methadone to be excreted faster, shortening the half-life (less or no effect with other opiates). The answer is to use calcium, sodium or magnesium ascorbate, which is slightly alkakline, or add sodium bicarbonate to the ascorbic acid (about 1 part SB to 4 AA)
* if you take more vitamin C orally than your body can absorb this can cause diarrhea, stool softening, flatulence. This will make no difference if you are already withdrawing. Under stress you may well absorb it all; also, taking probiotics (hi-dose bifidobacterium) can increase absorption and decrease this side effect (it is possible that ascorbic acid acts as pre-biotic for some intestinal bacteria and kills off others, causing this reaction, and probiotics strains are not affected).
* if prone to UTIs, acidification of urine can encourage imbalance in some cases; again, use alkaline forms of ascorbate (bear in mind that ascorbate in urine significantly lowers risk of bladder cancer, so there are advantages even here).
* most important - oral vitamin C does not elevate blood levels nearly as much as IV ascorbate, and most vitamin C detox protocols use IVC. So oral ascorbate, while it will give some relief, may not be enough to give the effects described at the start of this thread. Frequent dosing - a teaspoon every few hours - as required - may maximise oral absorption, compared to a single large dose.
* the protocol also specifies protein supplementation and multi-vitamins with minerals. Whey protein isolate is probably the best way to get enough protein; 20g 3x daily in water (withdrawal can trigger allergy to milk and gluten - avoid milk and wheat while hanging out as this makes it 10x worse). A good quality multivitamin will supply most of what's listed but you also need some vitamin E (400iu twice daily), calcium and magnesium (500mg calcium and 250mg magnesium twice daily). These help stop leg cramps. Other supplements that help are animo acids l-methionine, 1,000mg twice daily, l-glutamine 4,000mg twice daily, 5-HTP 100mg as required, especially if you don't have whey isolate. DL-phenylalanine (DLPA) is a good pain-reliever long term. It's a good idea to prep with all these supplements, plus fish oil (6g daily) long before doing the detox.
* sodium intake from sodium ascorbate is not a problem unless you are on dialysis for kidney failure. The body can easily get rid of excess sodium. The problem is when sodium intake is high long term from salty food in diet that is low in potassium and and magnesium (from fruit and veges). It is the sodium-potassium balance that matters most. Make sure you drink real fruit juice (and water) during detox (preferrably fresh juiced with vege juice too, but bottled is OK for potassium). In fact while hanging out you lose sodium, magnesium and potasium in sweat and faeces, and need extra salts. Compensate for the small amount of sodium in ascorbate by having no salt in food if you like; the average amounts are much the same.

 

[George D Henderson]

It is a false economy to use oral vit C instead of IV to discourage needle fixation. What cures needle fixation is correction of nutritional deficiencies. When I started supplementing antioxidants and amino acids, the needle fixation was the first thing I lost. I went from injecting ritalin whenever I could get it to putting it up my nose, to quitting altogether; I stopped injecting methadone. Whatever compulsion made me inject things, I lost it pretty fast once I put the nutritional deficiencies right (as I described in the last post). I also found it easy to give up benzos (cold turkey after 4 years on valium) and to start reducing methadone dose, and stopped doubing up methadone. Also stopped wasting money on junk food and sweets, and stopped buying pot, was able to enjoy occasional smoke instead of smoking compulsively.
Overuse of drugs causes nutritional deficiencies of antioxidants, amino acids, EFAs, B vitamins, minerals, this causes further behavioural and mood disorders; correcting the nutritional deficiencies over time seems to correct the mood and behaviour disorders; things like needle cravings, drug cravings, self-harm, depression, anger, narcisism are all down to missing nutrients and can be fixed easily if the nutrients are replaced for long enough.
There is no point detoxing off drugs if these other problems remain, as they will lead to relapse or to other risky or criminal behaviour (including alcohol and legal prescription drug dependence) as well as chronic degenerative diseases. It can take years of healthy eating after detox (and who does) for nutritional problems caused by drugs to come right, if they ever do. Supplements make it so much easier to resist bad food choices as well; they give you a much clearer head. Drug addiction puts you behind the 8 ball nutritionally; supplementation can put you ahead of the game. When it comes time to quit, we need all the advantages we can get.

 

[RedRum OG]

I recken that artical could be about anything and people would come forward and say "yep that works for me"

for sure. all bout the placebo. mountain dew helps me during WD's.... but its just cuz ive been in love with it forever.

 

[George D Henderson]

And if you try it and it doesnt work for you?

Then you just didnt do it properly, or your not the right type of person, lol.

An example of the no true scotsman fallacy.... ha ha ha.

Some people will believe anything.

It's a basic rule of science; if you want to disprove a controversial finding, you have to repeat the experiment EXACTLY; copy the methods and amounts and conditions as closely as you can.
If you don't respect that, you've proven nothing.
The gullible people, it seems to me, are the people who think they can disprove or dismiss someone else's hard work and lifetime of experience by scoffing from an armchair while out of their heads.
I'm a sceptic here; i'm sceptical that you "skeptics" can tell your arse from your elbow when it comes to nutrition and applied biochemistry.

Seems too good to be true?
No-one is saying it's EASY. Painless, yes, but isn't that a reason for using opiates in the first place? There will be a lot of hard work involved, especially in fixing psychologial consequences of addiction afterwards without drugs. You have to do more than just take Vit C; there's the protein and the other supplements needed. You'll need to understand nutrition enough to eat right in future (especially, to get enough protein and antioxidants) if you don't want to relapse. It takes months and years of supplementation, healthy eating and growing up to put youself beyond the possibility of relapse and going thru it all again.
So in the end it's not a quick fix, it's just a shortcut through the part of detox that puts people off the most. And it's a way of lessening the damage you do while withdrawing, damage that can only make you more vulnerable to relapse. And, it's a tool you can use in future to make yourself more comfortable without having to take drugs.

Perhaps not everyone should use vitamin C for detox. There's a Darwinian principle at work; if drug addiction can help to weed out the genes that aren't meant to survive, here's a way of weeding out the gene for "brainless scepticism". If only the intelligently open-minded will take advantage of supplements and diet to fix both behavioural problems like addiction and chronic degenerative diseases (including eventual infertility) then in a few generations the smart open-minded citizens of Earth will outnumber both the sceptics and the foolishly open-minded (who will have relied instead on various kinds of magic and UFOs, and be infertile because because of low-fat whole-grain vegan diets). Then saving the planet and the race will be a whole lot easier.

 

[Russianorik]

Wow I'm really dying to see if anyone actually followed the directions completely after reading all this and how it worked out...I really want to try this but have one concern if anyone can help me answer this I would greatly appreciate it...I have pretty high blood pressure, like 140/70 ussually, and of course it gets alot worse when I'm withdrawing, my question is if I was to use this method wouldn't all the extra sodium increase my blood pressure even more??? I
mean when I'm in wd it gets pretty high and my heart rate as well obviously, I jus don't want to try this and end up having a heart attack or stroke god forbid...by the way I'm a 25 yo male and I smoke a pack a day (I know this is prolly the reason for my bp but I can't quit everything at once) but other then that I would say I'm pretty healthy, no known liver or kidney problems.....please someone help me out with this, and answer some
questions with any other advice.....ANY advise would be greatly appreciated, thanks alot
in advance

 

[kken]

Id rather put my money on compounds that work on majority of the people. preferably something that doesnt create tolerance or dependence in the first place

this one looks pretty interesting:

PTI-609: A Novel Analgesic that Binds Filamin A to Control Opioid Signalin.

"Abstract

Binding a critical pentapeptide region on the scaffolding protein filamin A regulates signaling of mu opioid receptors (MORs) so that their activation should not result in the opioid tolerance, dependence and addiction associated with current opioid painkillers. Additionally, we show that compounds that bind this site on filamin A reduce release of inflammatory cytokines. PTI-609 is a new chemical entity that binds filamin A with picomolar affinity and also activates opioid receptors via a novel binding domain. PTI-609 and analogs have similar analgesic efficacy to morphine by oral administration in mice, provide some anti-inflammatory activity in the rat collagen-induced arthritis model, and show no conditioned place preference at analgesic doses, suggesting no potential for abuse and addiction. PTI-609 was designed after discovering filamin A as the high-affinity target of naltrexone or naloxone. Combined with opiates, ultra-low-dose naloxone or naltrexone can enhance and prolong the analgesia of the opiate alone and prevent or attenuate opioid tolerance, dependence and addictive properties. We will review here the mechanism of action of ultra-low-dose naltrexone and naloxone, the discovery of filamin A as their high-affinity target, and the rationale as to why the current, dualfunction new chemical entity should not only be easier to develop but also more consistently efficacious than opioids combined with ultra-low-dose naltrexone. This new class of compounds, as well as the concept, screening assay and pharmacophore model, are covered in a family of recent patent applications."

 

[Tazzi]

I am a German Methadone user and in March of 2010 I stumbled upon this discussion. After almost 15 years on Methadone (I started with 75 mg of oral Methadone and over the years my dosage went up to 150 mg) I decided in August to give the Vitamin C Detox - as described in this thread - a try.

I went to the local pharmacy and ordered 3 pounds of Sodium Ascorbate. The last dosage of Methadone was taken the night before the trial and the next morning when I woke up I took my first 20 gr. of Vitamin C.
I continued this every two hours and reached my bowel intolerance after 10 hours or 100gr of Sodium Ascorbate. So I lowered the dosage to 80-90 grams a day because 100 gr. would give me severe diarrhea.
On the first day I was starting to feel mild withdrawal symptoms after around 6 hours. I felt sweaty, nervous, mildly depressed and weak. It was certainly not like described the article that no withdrawal symptoms would be encountered. But since the symptoms were bearable and I was able to sleep through the night, I decided to follow through a second day. Every two hours I took a 16 gr tablespoon of Vitamin C. to just stay below my bowel intolerance. The withdrawal symptoms started to get stronger though. I felt generally pretty exhausted, like you would suffer from a medium flue and I felt pretty depressed again. My appetite was low, but since I was able to sleep a few hours through the night I decided to continue. On the third day I felt very weak and nervous. When I wanted to concentrate on tasks like reading email etc., shots of hot flashes went through my body and I felt very depressed. My bones and muscles were aching also. I decided to continue for one more day and if the next day would be no different or worse I was ready to call it quits.
And this is exactly what happened.
After a night with some good sleep - to my astonishment - all symptoms described above came back although more pronounced. Especially the depression was bothering me very much and the general feeling of weakness was quite uncomfortable. I felt weak like a fly although I was able to eat a normal diet throughout these days. Since no breakthrough in regard of my withdrawal symptoms occurred and the symptoms became stronger instead of less severe I said to myself that seemingly for me the treatment is not working.
There was also a huge psychological factor involved in my decision, please let me elaborate more:

From my own experience I know that a cold turkey withdrawal from Heroin will take roughly 7 to 10 days. This is NOT the case with Methadone. Medical research will tell you it can take many weeks for all withdrawal symptoms to disappear when kicking off of Methadone.
And although I have never kicked off of Methadone I personally know 2 friends who had this enormous willpower. But after 6 weeks !!!!! these guys were still complaining of poor sleep and aching joints and bones.
So, when, after 4 days on Vitamin C, my symptoms were starting to increase instead of improving, a huge factor to call it quits was my fear that this whole thing could drag on for many more weeks, since we are dealing here with Methadone and not Heroin. I was too much afraid that, feeling weak and depressed for many weeks, would make it impossible for me to do my job, which I need to be able to perform for a living.
Had someone been able to convince me that the withdrawal would be over in 10 days - no question that I would have hung in there. But with Methadone, the outlook of being weak, depressed and miserable for many weeks, although being on a regiment of Vitamin C, which should have taken care of these withdrawal symptoms - but in my case did not - was enough to discontinue the Sodium Ascorbate and continue, alas, with Methadone.
In a final thought I am convinced that probably the withdrawal symptoms were much milder due to the support of Vitamin C than trying without it, but in my case it was still more than I was ready to bear.

I might give it another try in the future, although then I would probably go with i.v. Ascorbate. Maybe by taking it orally, although in mega doses you do not get enough into your system for it to work like described in the article.

 

[doppelganga196]

I didn't read the whole thread yet but 10 grams per 70 kg sounds like enough to give me the kidney
stones associated with excess vit c that i've read about. Vit c injections anybody? Might take care of those needle fixations...

 

[Thomas29]

No I just do not think so.

 

[pema]

How to make sodium ascorbate?

OK. Older topic... But next month I also will try how much vitamin c can alleviate withdrawal symptoms.
I found some clinical studies that say, that vitamin c really can alleviate opiate withdrawal symptoms. But it does not work with normal doses like 100-500mg.
In some newspapers or in orthemolecular medically texts it is said that it eliminated all withdrawal symtoms. In clinical studies it is only said to alleviate some symtoms.
And Tazzi's experience report sounds like it really helped a little.
I now want to know if (and a lot of other uncommon stuffs) really work and how much they help and will try it.
I'm collecting a lot of supplements, herbs, ... and next month it's time for my withdrawal.
Then I will test all those things to see what is useful for alleviating withdrawal symptoms and what is useless.
But therefore it will be necessary to take maybe more than 100 grams ascorbic acid per day.
I am afraid that I got stomach problems from too much acid when I ingest pure ascorbic acid. So I want to use sodium ascorbate. This should be prepared easily. Just mixing baking soda with ascorbic acid (the needed amounts can be calculated when I look at the molar masses on wikipedia).
But what after mixing? Then I have just baking soda + ascorbic acid and not sodium arcorbate, right?
I need to solve it in destilled water? And then? Waiting until the water evaporated and then I have sodium ascorbate? Is this the right way? I am no chemist and school chemistry is long time ago...

Dissolving the 2-powder-mix in water probably will show the samme effect than dissolving sodium ascorbate in water. But now I want to know how to make real sodium ascorbate.

After my withdrawal experiment, I will post all my results and tell you which uncommon stuffs are usefull and which are useless.

 

[Herbal~Jah]

Vitamin C cures w/d symptoms of opiates you say? well you know that Coconut Water also cures opiate w/ds!

 

[ozeronix]

not calcium ascorbate, its SODIUM ASCORBATE!!

The rationale for attacking cancer sounds great on paper but in reality it does not work much like this does not work for curing opiate withdrawal.

By all means try eating 20grams of calcium adsorbate (do not have ascorbic acid or you'll be shitting your pants and have horrid abdominal pain) next time you are in WD but I highly doubt it will do anything.

Anyone feel like being a guinea pig?

it is not calcium ascorbate, its SODIUM ASCORBATE!!. It worked for me for methadone at 10 gram doses at a time, between 30-50 a day. Basically, when i started getting the shits, I'd back off. I'm fine, no side effects, unless you include feeling great and getting off opiates. Go Sodium Ascorbate!!!!!
http://i.bluelight.ru/pi/10.gif

 

[Danny Al'thor]

Is it true are there outher sources I could investagate?

 

[Swimmingdancer]

I do not believe the claim that Vitamin C completely eliminates all opioid withdrawal symptoms. It is likely beneficial, but the degree at which is can relieve WDs seems to vary greatly from person to person. I have heard from people who have tried this and said it worked very well, people who said it may have worked slightly, people who said it didn't work at all, and people who said it made them feel even worse. It probably really depends on the person, their unique situation/brain/body, what specific drug they're detoxing from, what protocol they follow for the Vitamin C, whether or not they have stopped opioids completely or are using it while tapering, whether or not they are taking anything else, etc. There are a number of different theories about how it might work, it's really not understood.

Here's a study about using ascorbic acid orally (with Vit E) for heroin withdrawal (which is a different type of Vit C and ROA from most of the studies mentioned earlier in this thread, and would be easier to do at home):

Ascorbic acid (vitamin C) effects on withdrawal syndrome of heroin abusers. [Year: 2000]
Abstract:
BACKGROUND:
Ascorbic acid (vitamin C), administered orally in high doses has been observed to relieve pain and reduce opioid use in cancer patients. In vitro studies have also shown that antioxidants, such as vitamin C, may, at high concentrations, inhibit the endogenous opioid degrading metalloenzyme and increase endorphin levels. In the present study the effects of oral administration of high doses of vitamin C on withdrawal syndrome of heroin abusers were investigated.
MATERIALS AND PATIENTS:
Ascorbic acid at doses of 300 mg/kg b.w/day, supplemented with vitamin E (5 mg/kg b.w/day), was orally administered in two groups of heroin addict subjects consisting of in-patients (Group A, 30 males) and one of out-patients(Group B, 10 males), for a minimum of 4 weeks. The group A in-patients were also administered the conventional (diazepam + analgesic) medication. The results on the intensity of withdrawal syndrome (WS), estimated according to DMS-III criteria, were compared to a third group of heroin addict in-patients (group C, 30 males-control group), treated only by conventional medication.
RESULTS:
The patients of the vitamin C-treated groups (in-patients and out-patients) experienced mild WS (in 46.6% to 50% of the subjects) in contrast to the control group patients, who experienced mild WS in 6.6% of the cases. The vitamin C-treated subjects expressed major WS ranging from 10% to 16.6%, in contrast to the untreated subjects (control group), who expressed a major WS in 56.6% of the cases.
CONCLUSIONS:
The results indicate that high doses of ascorbic acid administered orally, may ameliorate the withdrawal syndrome of heroin addicts. Further studies are needed in order to estimate the dose- and time-dependent effects of ascorbic acid treatment, and to clarify its mechanisms of action in the withdrawal syndrome.
[source]

I'm not entirely sure what to make of this considering it was a pretty small number of people, and the control group and one of the Vit C groups were also given other meds, and I can't see what the full study says without paying.

Perhaps I will considering experimenting on myself... I have tried Vit C in the past (for methadone withdrawal after 10 yrs) but I haven't really given it a real fair shot or taken as high of doses of Vit C as recommended. I do feel many vitamins/minerals/supplements and following a specific diet are very helpful and are a great idea, but so far I certainly haven't found a combo that eliminates withdrawal symptoms or causes a dramatic and rapid improvement.

Here's another study:

The Use of Ascorbic Acid and Mineral Supplements in the Detoxification of Narcotic Addicts [Year: 1979]
The present pilot study investigated the use of megadoses of ascorbic acid as sodium ascorbate, multivitamins and mineral supplements in the treatment of drug withdrawal symptoms. A total of 227 subjects were compared: 30 subjects using the ascorbic detoxification procedure; 186 subjects utilizing symptomatic relief medications; and 11 clients using a combination approach of ascorbic acid and symptomatic medications. The results indicate that the ascorbic acid procedure is slightly more effective than symptomatic medications in alleviating narcotic withdrawal symptoms, and that the combination approach shows the greatest reduction in symptoms.
[source]

Unfortunately again I can't view the whole study without paying, so I can't see any details. Also the Vit C and Vit C/meds groups were way smaller than the reg meds group.

 

[Danny Al'thor]

What is relacore??

 

[sekio]

http://supplement-geek.com/relacore-review-ingredients-side-effects/

it's a bunch of vitamins (B complex, 333mg Vit C, Ca/Mg) and some silly herb extracts, bundled in a capsule and sold at a 4,000% markup.

save your money and buy generic multivitamins - they will do just about the same thing.

 

[Mass08]

Wow this is so interesting! Badass thread.