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Veganism/vegetarianism and "ethical" lifestyle choices

Objectively, that still doesn't mean anything. The environment may be as unpleasant as it could be, that still doesn't mean anything objectively. This brings me back to square one to saying that "ethics" is a human-made concept that is hard to find in nature. After all, if other carnivores had the abilities to set up such farms, that's exactly how they'd set them up. Maximum efficiency.
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Look, I do agree that ethics are man-made. But, as humans are part of the natural world, wouldn't our ideals also be 'natural'? Objectively, suffering does mean something. It is logical and rational to argue that any life-form would wish to avoid suffering. It seems inherent that we desire a life free of pain and suffering; it appears to be encoded genetically within most animals and manifests as a survival instinct. To me, that indicates a certain objectivity in the avoidance of suffering.

Of course, whether we care about such suffering is an entirely different matter.

Factory farming is not efficent in the sense that it over-uses resources. It is efficent only if we are willing to sacrifice biodiversity and future food sources for a short term surplus. I think its a fiction that factory farming is neccesary to feed humanity. Its unsustainable. We do not need to eat meat everyday; that is a luxury that should never be claimed as a right or requirement. And, the fact is, that the over-consumption of meat is causing environmental degradation such that once-abundant resources are no longer abundant. That is not efficency by any means. The only thing that factory farming is efficent at doing is creating money for a small group of individuals.

The reason I'm willing to argue with you here is that I believe presenting such reasons as ethics in favor of veganism is not the best way to approach the matter. They're easily debatable, and in addition to that an average person can easily dismiss them, because why would they care about the welfare of other NON-HUMAN animals that they never get to see in person? You can't argue against fact however, which is that meat-based diet is unsustainable for us. I wish more people would understand that. Because no matter how sadistic or indifferent a person can be, what evidence shows us is that it is a threat to us. Any sane animal being cares about their own welfare.
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That's true. The ethical reasons, which I have earlier described as 'kindergarten' reasons are not as relevant in comparison to the broader consequences of meat eating. But it forms a continuum; our desire for cheap, abundant meat creates factory farms where animals inadvertently suffer. Both reasons, the broader environmental reasons as well as the ethical/kindergarten reasons are intimately connected. If humans moved away from factory farms, we would degrade the environment much less and help reduce the suffering of the animals we owe our lives too.
 
All jokes aside, I do appreciate the awareness that this thread has brought to me. I haven't yet made the leap to veganism but uave given it more serious thought than ever, and have made several attempts. I simply have not found it within to make the necessary changes, yet. Like I have always maintained, I do admire those that have the will power and integrity to revolutionize their entire diet to do what they feel benifits this wonderful Earth. Except for Willow, he's just a lame phony! :p (Lighten up, willow, it sure made me giggle) ;)
 
as a side note, if the whole world went vegan, would that not be extinction for our domestic livestock? personally, i think our partner species are getting a good deal. i only object to the hellish cruelty of modern factory farms. death is natural, not to be feared, but torturing an animal so you can have a cheap cheeseburger is unsupportable.
 
tantric said:
as a side note, if the whole world went vegan, would that not be extinction for our domestic livestock? personally, i think our partner species are getting a good deal. i only object to the hellish cruelty of modern factory farms. death is natural, not to be feared, but torturing an animal so you can have a cheap cheeseburger is unsupportable.
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Well, I don't think it would be 'extinction'. Surely we can reduce the numbers humanely by allowing current livestock to live out their lives whilst reducing the amount of breeding.

You can't really say that these animals get a "good deal" when they live in "hellish" conditions. That makes no sense. I feel like you are arguing that simply existing is better than not existing- a point I discussed earlier and concluded to be ignorant. A terrible existence is worthless.

We simply do not have the resources for the current mass numbers of livestock to live comfortably. The two solutions are barabaric factory farms ('eternal Treblinka') or mass reductions in the consumption of meat. It is clear which side will win that as long as westerners continue to believe it is their right (and healthy!) to eat meat every day. It is not a right at all, it is not healthy and it is unnatural for our species. Thank fuck for India's beliefs about sacred cows and the relative paucity of meat consumption in Chinese culture. If/when these nations begin consuming meat at our levels, goodbye planet earth :|

I think that meat should be made very expensive. I do not partake in meat eating, yet as an earthling, I am deeply affected by those who do. That seems unjust to me. I think meat eaters should be obligated to pay extra for their luxury and for that extra money to be put towards mitigation of the environmental destruction they are perpetrating. The current suffering of farm animals is nothing compared to what is to come to all earthly lifeforms. It angers me that I am going to have suffer so that fat people can continue eating tortured steaks 3 times a day. :D

(I have been thinking about how meat eaters could be held accountable in court of law for their infringement of my rights. Of course, human rights have a distinct cut-off around the point that involves us actually sacrificing anything of ourselves)
 
willow11 said:
Well, I don't think it would be 'extinction'. Surely we can reduce the numbers humanely by allowing current livestock to live out their lives whilst reducing the amount of breeding.

You can't really say that these animals get a "good deal" when they live in "hellish" conditions. That makes no sense. I feel like you are arguing that simply existing is better than not existing- a point I discussed earlier and concluded to be ignorant. A terrible existence is worthless.

We simply do not have the resources for the current mass numbers of livestock to live comfortably. The two solutions are barabaric factory farms ('eternal Treblinka') or mass reductions in the consumption of meat. It is clear which side will win that as long as westerners continue to believe it is their right (and healthy!) to eat meat every day. It is not a right at all, it is not healthy and it is unnatural for our species. Thank fuck for India's beliefs about sacred cows and the relative paucity of meat consumption in Chinese culture. If/when these nations begin consuming meat at our levels, goodbye planet earth :|

I think that meat should be made very expensive. I do not partake in meat eating, yet as an earthling, I am deeply affected by those who do. That seems unjust to me. I think meat eaters should be obligated to pay extra for their luxury and for that extra money to be put towards mitigation of the environmental destruction they are perpetrating. The current suffering of farm animals is nothing compared to what is to come to all earthly lifeforms. It angers me that I am going to have suffer so that fat people can continue eating tortured steaks 3 times a day. :D

(I have been thinking about how meat eaters could be held accountable in court of law for their infringement of my rights. Of course, human rights have a distinct cut-off around the point that involves us actually sacrificing anything of ourselves)
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When I move out of my parents house, I intend on going vegan or something. I've cut my meat intake by a ton (except for bacon). When I have bacon inside my face, nothing matters. Nothing.
 
Ninae said:
You know fried Holoumi cheese is a good substitute.
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As an alternative to bacon? Hmm. Its not vegan though... I would have little problem consuming such animal products if I could be sure it was farmed responsibly and sustainably. We're all going to die so avoiding that isn't that important. Its the quality of life that matters for me. If I could be sure that milk products were coming from animals who were 'allowed' certain natural behaviours and relative comfort, I'd be frying haloumi right now. If I coudl be sure that my diet was not contributing to global destruction, I'd be stuffing all my orifices with bacon, especially my nose. My cousin has chickens, I occaisionally have a few of their eggs. They make a lot of them, their lives are decent; they have freedom to roost and nest, they have a social structure, they even have a pseudo-rooster. They eat bulk feed from an organic farm, so their diet isn't destructive. I don't feel any guilt if I occaionslly devour their unfertilised ovum.

Nix said:
When I move out of my parents house, I intend on going vegan or something. I've cut my meat intake by a ton (except for bacon). When I have bacon inside my face, nothing matters. Nothing.
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I felt that way about salami. I occasionally crave that fermented pig flesh. Intensely. :)

I would suggest that you transition to veganism relatively slowly and listen to your body. I intially was a pesquetarian (sp? fish eater is what I'm trying to say...). I cut out fish and just ate a vegetarian diet for a few years. Miss Willow wanted to go vegan, I was really resistant, arguing against it as a form of extremism, she won. We're both vegans. It took a while before I felt good on a vegan diet. I think that men have greater desire for meat; well, I did. :\

During the extreme spasticity of my drug addictions I was really too skinny with abscessed arm from injecting, and completely fucked teeth. Basically malnourished. After quitting, I had lost so much muscle mass (I used to work out regulary, was never "ripped" but had nice definition ;)), I had the full ribcage protrusion and Jesus-style abs, the hollow cheeks and sunken eyes. Looked like I was terminally ill and I effectively was... I felt so weak, simple movements were difficult and I was tired constantly. For a few months, I ate free-range chicken for protein and excerised a lot, got my metabolism accepting the idea that I was a human who ate food regularly and got back in relative shape. I then went back to being vegan. It takes research and thoughtfullness and, as I said, the ability to listen to ones body and respond accordingly. I feel healthier than ever; whilst I still have teeth problems (I'm a grinder) and problems with my stomach from healed ulcers, I have energy and a 'clean' inner feeling. There is some awesome vegan/vege foods around and it takes a bit of effort to find things that you like but is well worth it.

Meat is murder :D
 
Yeah, they're not bad.
I've recently discovered cashew cheese, and therefore rediscovered pizza.
It's really similar to a soft cheese like goat's cheese. Amazing stuff, and doesn't fuck with my stomach the way a lot of cheese or meat substitutes tend to.
I never like most of those sorts of things anyway - i don't like eating meat so i don't miss it or feel the need to compensate for it in my diet or replace it in meals...but my partner does so we eat those things sometimes.
Vegetarian sausages are kind of a different thing though - to me they often don't really resemble "meat" in the first place, and are made of random ground up bits of animal, so the veg versions are frankly an improvement - but frankly i prefer to eat as little processed food as possible, and go more for fresh vegetables, beans and such.
Nice to have "real" pizza again though. Yum! :)
 
The best substitues for me are roasted, chopped walnuts, which you can put in anything, pasta, hot salads, nut-roast, etc (should be combined with onion). And grilled Haloumi cheese is pretty amazing in sandwiches and all kinds of things instead of meat.
 
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