Veganism/vegetarianism and "ethical" lifestyle choices

[turkalurk]

1) I am not leading this discussion just because I started it. I'm not sure why you think I am obliged to read and respond to every contribution. I don't have the time for that, but I did try to express my appreciation to all participants, yourself included. strawman, never said you had to respond to every contribution. I said if you were going to engage someone somewhere in the midst of an argument on your thread, you should feel obliged to read their entire argument before replying with a rebuttal that inaccurately assumes what their argument is. You don't have time to read through my arguments, but you expect me to take the time to repeat myself. What happened to empathy?
2) How do you know that I haven't read all of it? You are assuming that (correctly as it were) Of course, IF you were to start a topic, you WOULD do things differently. Cool man. You said as much, and the questions and responses indicate either a misinterpretation or ignorance.
3) The fact is that you were unclear in your points, so I tried to pick those that made sense to me to discuss. It is not my fault if you changed your arguments several times or were unable to coherently convey it. or maybe you were just unable or unwilling to follow it. Basically, a peson who claims to follow deep ecology wouldn't need to question the relevancy and significance of an eco-friendly solution to the food industry. Especially someone who claims to be interested in alternatives to vegetarianism.
4) Earlier you felt that I was responding only to you- you said as much to me- so I worried that I was hectoring you so I backed off. Again, you have an uncanny ability to misinterpret my words. I never said any such thing. I have said that you seem to respond to my posts as if I were talking to you, and trying to apply my criticisms of murphy's arguments to your own beliefs as if I were directing my comments at you. I picked the things in your comments that interested me to discuss with you. That is how it goes. I don't have the inclination or the time to try and figure out your own arguments when other people here are expressing their's in a clearer manner.

If I've bothered you, I'm sorry, but its really your own problem. I tried to engage with you above and you just went on a small rant, so I'm giving up.

I don't care what you do. I would actually rather you not comments at all then to continue this campaign of having to clarify your misinterpretations and argue against someone who admits he hasn't read the whole argument, but expcts me to keep repeating myself everytime he wants to makes an uninformed comment. It would be different if you have read my posts and didn't understand, but it is your thread and this is supposed to be important to you. So, I basically lost interest in debating with you pages ago when you admitted not reading my posts.
I am sorry you want to step onto a moral high horse and write such a thread announcing how great your moral fiber is, but are unwilling to be bothered reading an entire argument before engaging it with fallacious rebuttals. Like I said, it all just seems like superficial hedonistic ethics. None of you care about actual solutions, that doesn't produce enough altruistic high of self love. Anyone can eat lab meat, but it takes conviction to give meat up entirely. Lets forget about how the mass production of vegetables can be just as harmful to the environment as a whole which is the basic premise of deep ecology. Not less harm for animals, but life as a whole! So, by downplaying the significance of lab meat, you reinforce my point about the moral high horse. Is more important to feel good about yourself, than it does to actually do the right thing for the world as a whole. Its all about self gratification of the ego and reinforcing feelings of superiority.

 

[murphythecat]

I don't care what you do. I would actually rather you not comments at all then to continue this campaign of having to clarify your misinterpretations and argue against someone who admits he hasn't read the whole argument, but expcts me to keep repeating myself everytime he wants to makes an uninformed comment. It would be different if you have read my posts and didn't understand, but it is your thread and this is supposed to be important to you. So, I basically lost interest in debating with you pages ago when you admitted not reading my posts.
I am sorry you want to step onto a moral high horse and write such a thread announcing how great your moral fiber is, but are unwilling to be bothered reading an entire argument before engaging it with fallacious rebuttals. Like I said, it all just seems like superficial hedonistic ethics. None of you care about actual solutions, that doesn't produce enough altruistic high of self love. Anyone can eat lab meat, but it takes conviction to give meat up entirely. Lets forget about how the mass production of vegetables can be just as harmful to the environment as a whole which is the basic premise of deep ecology. Not less harm for animals, but life as a whole! So, by downplaying the significance of lab meat, you reinforce my point about the moral high horse. Is more important to feel good about yourself, than it does to actually do the right thing for the world as a whole. Its all about self gratification of the ego and reinforcing feelings of superiority.

simply false.
make your research. farm meat are much worse for the environments then vegetable farms
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x2...d-i-eat-meat-how-to-feed-the-planet_lifestyle

get your facts straight because your arguments, ive read all your post, arent facts but assumption from your parts.

as for people who try to convince themselves that they need meat in their diet, heres some interesting read:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19562864
http://www.dietitians.ca/Your-Healt...arian-Diets/Eating-Guidelines-for-Vegans.aspx
http://www.nhs.uk/Livewell/Vegetarianhealth/Pages/Vegandiets.aspx
http://www.nutrition.org.uk/publications/briefingpapers/vegetarian-nutrition
http://www.choosemyplate.gov/healthy-eating-tips/tips-for-vegetarian.html
http://www.nhmrc.gov.au/_files_nhmr...tralian_dietary_guidelines_summary_130530.pdf
http://www.mayoclinic.org/healthy-l...-eating/in-depth/vegetarian-diet/art-20046446
http://www.heartandstroke.com/site/...9/k.2F6C/Healthy_living__Vegetarian_diets.htm

that said, lab grown meat is very promising imo

 

[Ninae]

If I've bothered you, I'm sorry, but its really your own problem. I tried to engage with you above and you just went on a small rant, so I'm giving up.

I think he's more about teasing and making fun of vegetarians than relating to it in a serious/sober way.

 

[Xorkoth]

I don't care what you do. I would actually rather you not comments at all then to continue this campaign of having to clarify your misinterpretations and argue against someone who admits he hasn't read the whole argument, but expcts me to keep repeating myself everytime he wants to makes an uninformed comment. It would be different if you have read my posts and didn't understand, but it is your thread and this is supposed to be important to you. So, I basically lost interest in debating with you pages ago when you admitted not reading my posts.
I am sorry you want to step onto a moral high horse and write such a thread announcing how great your moral fiber is, but are unwilling to be bothered reading an entire argument before engaging it with fallacious rebuttals. Like I said, it all just seems like superficial hedonistic ethics. None of you care about actual solutions, that doesn't produce enough altruistic high of self love. Anyone can eat lab meat, but it takes conviction to give meat up entirely. Lets forget about how the mass production of vegetables can be just as harmful to the environment as a whole which is the basic premise of deep ecology. Not less harm for animals, but life as a whole! So, by downplaying the significance of lab meat, you reinforce my point about the moral high horse. Is more important to feel good about yourself, than it does to actually do the right thing for the world as a whole. Its all about self gratification of the ego and reinforcing feelings of superiority.

What makes you say no one in this thread cares about real solutions? Plenty of people have responded in this thread without ego. I also don't really see how willow has been on a high horse or full of ego about this. Some in this thread, yes, absolutely.

What makes this thread a bummer to read (and a lot of threads in this forum eventually go this route) is the constant back and forth bickering about one's position and one's interpretation of how another has responded (not to mention the personal attacks, which is not happening here). It would be better if we could have constructive conversation. Which was happening for quite a bit of this thread. All the back and forth bickering is tiring.

 

[ebola?]

How about this:

in order to have the kind of meaningful exchange where people could actually potentially learn from one another, it is necessary to hold a series of charitable assumptions about one's discussants, namely that they are willing to validly attempt to understand the views put forth and that their primary motive for exploring these views is pursuit of truth. Simply launching a meta-discursive attack undermines these assumptions regardless of whether they truly have been violated.

ebola

 

[turkalurk]

simply false.
make your research. farm meat are much worse for the environments then vegetable farms
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x2...d-i-eat-meat-how-to-feed-the-planet_lifestyle

get your facts straight because your arguments, ive read all your post, arent facts but assumption from your parts.

as for people who try to convince themselves that they need meat in their diet, heres some interesting read:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19562864
http://www.dietitians.ca/Your-Healt...arian-Diets/Eating-Guidelines-for-Vegans.aspx
http://www.nhs.uk/Livewell/Vegetarianhealth/Pages/Vegandiets.aspx
http://www.nutrition.org.uk/publications/briefingpapers/vegetarian-nutrition
http://www.choosemyplate.gov/healthy-eating-tips/tips-for-vegetarian.html
http://www.nhmrc.gov.au/_files_nhmr...tralian_dietary_guidelines_summary_130530.pdf
http://www.mayoclinic.org/healthy-l...-eating/in-depth/vegetarian-diet/art-20046446
http://www.heartandstroke.com/site/...9/k.2F6C/Healthy_living__Vegetarian_diets.htm

that said, lab grown meat is very promising imo

something isn't simply false because you say it is. Something isn't fact because yo say it is. I did not claim eating solely meat or solely vegatables was best for the environment, which is worse is debatable and mostly a matter of perspective. However, the ecofriendly lab meat shows much more promise as you have agreed with. The fact that williw dismisses its significance illustrates my point about, for many, its about the superficial appearance of doing what makes them feel good about themselves and not about what is best for the world as a whole.

Furthermore, I find it odd how many of the vegetarians have expressed a lack of ability to empathize with their opposition which contradicts their claims of being these uber-compassionate people, and reinforces my criticism of the underlying smug narcissism motivating their behavior.

 

[swilow]

You're making assumptions that are wrong and would be offensive if they had any substance. Just drop it Turk.

 

[turkalurk]

What makes you say no one in this thread cares about real solutions? Plenty of people have responded in this thread without ego. I also don't really see how willow has been on a high horse or full of ego about this. Some in this thread, yes, absolutely.

What makes this thread a bummer to read (and a lot of threads in this forum eventually go this route) is the constant back and forth bickering about one's position and one's interpretation of how another has responded (not to mention the personal attacks, which is not happening here). It would be better if we could have constructive conversation. Which was happening for quite a bit of this thread. All the back and forth bickering is tiring.

I didn't mean a general "you," I meant specifically those vegetarians who have downplayed, undermined, or seem uninterested in a compromising solution and would rather ignore how something like this could change the game completely. Sorry for not making that clearer, I did not meant to point a finger at everyone. Yes, at first, I didn't think Willow was one either. It's only the recent discussions that have provided enough context to read between the lines of his opening remarks and the implications of even posting a thread like this. Personally, if I put myself in his shoes, I would not have titled it
"ethical" lifestyle choices if I didn't want to imply that it was an ethical decision to become a vegatarian and not a preference of lifestyle and what is best fo oneself. An ethical lifestyle choice implies what is best for society as a whole.

you would think Murphy could relate to the wu wei philosophy of focusing on controlling the natural flow of your own personal choices and letting Humanity grow through its experiences as a whole rather than by your personal actions and efforts to gain control over what happens in your world.

We are all just human. I am glad we have people out there taking up an activist stance and fighting for what they think is right. But, I also appreciate those who scrutinize every position from every angle possible in an attempt to look at things as obiectively as possible in order to get as close to truth as possible.

To me, God=Truth=Objective Reality. A relationship with God is about understanding our allusive relationship with Truth. Sometimes, the truth isn't just something that makes you feel good. We might not have direct access to objective truth, but we do have the conceptual tools for determining and analysing the probability of truthfulness. We have universal rules of valid inference. If you are going to debate ethics or the logic of anything else, you ought to consider these rules and make an effort not to argue from an obviously fallacious starting point as its a general waste of everyone's time.

I respect anyone making a general effort to make the world a better place. I don't want to downplay how great it is that people can be so motivated by love, they can make these huge sacrifices in order to stick to their convictions. I really do admire that and appreciate those kinds of people. But, that won't stop me from voicing my concerns or criticisms when I experience dissonance.

 

[Ninae]

Philosophy isn't about aggrandizing yourself in any way you can think of but about searching for the truth. And the truth isn't always what suits you. It takes some humility.

For most who become vegetarian it's not what suits them or what is easiest for them. It' a sacrifice they choose to make despite of that. And it's not about ego, it doesn't really give you many ego-rewards or recognition in the real world.

 

[turkalurk]

what assumptions are wrong, and why would it be offensive? Are you above humanity? Are you above Ego? I won't pretend I am. I can only try my best to keep egoic tendencies in check the best I can, but don't we all want to love and feel better about ourself? Don't you feel like a superior version of yourself when you stick by your convictions and feel like you are doing the right thing?

I am merely suggesting that such behavior is a product of normal brain functioning(reward versus cost/consequences computations) and not the product of some universal code of ethical rights and wrongs. It wouldn't be offensive, it would simply put you in the same boat as us all, until you claimed to know what is inherently right or wrong for everyone in every situation, then you could be in a smug lil tug boat. Which sometimes is understandable especially when subtle. I don't think its a bad thing to elevate one's ego when they feel they have done something for a good cause. I think its a human thing, and has a beautiful function.

I don't really know what kind of boat you live in, but I do assume its as human as any other human boat. I can only comment on my interpretations of your words. If I misunderstand, then I am glad to hear it. I am glad you don't feel it makes someone a better person to become a vegetarian.

 

[turkalurk]

Philosophy isn't about aggrandizing yourself in any way you can think of but about searching for the truth. And the truth isn't always what suits you. It takes some humility.

For most who become vegetarian it's not what suits them or what is easiest for them. It' a sacrifice they choose to make despite of that. And it's not about ego, it doesn't really give you many ego-rewards or recognition in the real world.

the ego is self, so it could be said the vegan lifestyle reinforces self esteem.

 

[ebola?]

We have universal rules of valid inference.

What if I told you that people on both sides of an argument could make entirely valid inferences yet continue to disagree? This is a key reason why we should explore the bases of our reasoning in the face of disagreement.

ebola

 

[murphythecat]

I dont eat meat because I care for the suffering of the animals. how is that even related to the ego.lol

again, meat farms are much more damaging for the environment then vegetable farms. get your facts straight.

the ego is self, so it could be said the vegan lifestyle reinforces self esteem.

Furthermore, I find it odd how many of the vegetarians have expressed a lack of ability to empathize with their opposition which contradicts their claims of being these uber-compassionate people, and reinforces my criticism of the underlying smug narcissism motivating their behavior.

fine, lets hear your argument on how narcissic it is for someone to stop eating meat, not because he doesnt like meat, but because he cares on the well being of animals and the damage meat farms have on the environment.

 

[turkalurk]

What if I told you that people on both sides of an argument could make entirely valid inferences yet continue to disagree? This is a key reason why we should explore the bases of our reasoning in the face of disagreement.

ebola

I am not saying it can not be done from their side, but they haven't been attempting to play by these rules. Why debate logic with someone who doesn't attempt to apply these rules to their reasoning and rebuttals? It seems futile.

 

[turkalurk]

I dont eat meat because I care for the suffering of the animals. how is that even related to the ego.lol

again, meat farms are much more damaging for the environment then vegetable farms. get your facts straight.

what about the chickens you suggest should be wiped from existence because they are unnatural? Its about ego because it elevates your sense of self. It often inflates one's ego to feel they are promoting a good cause.

 

[murphythecat]

they should be wiped of existence? Ive said, we should stop creating them. because, humans reproduce chicken in a very controlled environment.

we make sure they reproduce to kill them afterward.

lol, stop attacking people ego. your toaoist, you should know the ego is a illusion. stay on the subject rather then talk about people

what about the chickens you suggest should be wiped from existence because they are unnatural? Its about ego because it elevates your sense of self. It often inflates one's ego to feel they are promoting a good cause.

how does it elevates my sense of self to stop eating chicken?

stop eating meat is a good cause. and we do it because we feel that the way animals are raised is inhuman and innacceptable. I love a hamburger, but I dont eat it because I feel for the animals. its the exact opposite of ego centered choice.

 

[Ninae]

the ego is self, so it could be said the vegan lifestyle reinforces self esteem.

Maybe in your mind you would like to see it like that. When I became vegetarian it was because:

1) I felt eating animal flesh and dead animals was revolting
2) For the sake of animals
3) Because I was spiritually ambitious and meat-eating holds you back
4) For health reasons

Never did I dream I would be getting any ego-rewards for it and I haven't had any regocnition. The best you can hope for is to be met with tolerance so it's hardly the best choice for an ego-trip. As for "superficial", there are more superficial ways if you just want to feel good about yourself, not to mention there is nothing superficial about it.

What makes me feel good is that for every year less animals are sacrificed because of how I live and there is nothing wrong with feeling good about something good you do.

Your whole outlook on this is twisted for self-serving reasons.

 

[turkalurk]

Maybe in your mind you would like to see it like that. When I became vegetarian it was because:

1) I felt eating animal flesh and dead animals was revolting
2) For the sake of animals
3) Because I was spiritually ambitious and meat-eating holds you back
4) For health reasons

Never did I dream I would be getting any ego-rewards for it and I haven't had any regocnition. The best you can hope for is to be met with tolerance so it's hardly the best choice for an ego-trip. As for "superficial", there are more superficial ways if you just want to feel good about yourself, not to mention there is nothing superficial about it.

What makes me feel good is that for every year less animals are sacrificed because of how I live and there is nothing wrong with feeling good about something good you do.

Your whole outlook on this is twisted for self-serving reasons.

if those are your basic premises, then your arguments are weak and seem to support the case I have been making as none of them can generally be assumed to be true as demonstrated through these debates. Its circular logic to restate your opinion without any support that your premises are true. Furthermore, you neglect that most egoic tendencies that inflate one's ego and sense of self worth are done without being consciously aware of the underlying motivations, so you also assume people are always aware of why they behave a certain way or believe the things they believe.

 

[turkalurk]

they should be wiped of existence? Ive said, we should stop creating them. because, humans reproduce chicken in a very controlled environment.

we make sure they reproduce to kill them afterward.

lol, stop attacking people ego. your toaoist, you should know the ego is a illusion. stay on the subject rather then talk about people
how does it elevates my sense of self to stop eating chicken?

stop eating meat is a good cause. and we do it because we feel that the way animals are raised is inhuman and innacceptable. I love a hamburger, but I dont eat it because I feel for the animals. its the exact opposite of ego centered choice.

thats a common confusion with western interpretation. Ego perception is an allusion not an illusion. Believing ego is all there is can be illussive, but believing Ego is not a part of you can be as well. I relate with Taoism, its about balance not polarity, but I wouldn't exactly call myself a Taoist as I do not live a Taoist lifestyle.

 

[murphythecat]

thats a common confusion with western interpretation. Ego is an allusion not an illusion. Believing ego is all there is can be illussive, but so can believing Ego is not a part of you can be as well. I relate with Taoism, its about balance not polarity, but I wouldn't exactly call myself a Taoist as I do not live a Taoist lifestyle.

in buddhism, the ego is a illusion. the sense of self is created but not true objectively.

believing ego is all there is? what do you mean?
ego is constructed with memories, thoughts, ect. its only a construction, and totally impermanent.
maybe taoist is different though