Veganism/vegetarianism and "ethical" lifestyle choices

[murphythecat]

if you think you can compare effectively the suffering of the lives of the animals in the farms and the insects being killed in vegetable field, i find it very weird. im not saying that vegetable farms are perfect, but in terms of suffering, its not even comparable.
and again, you are the one constantly making personal attacks.

u fail to see my logic because of ypur own personal biases and short-sightedness. Farming kills far more animals from sheer pesticides alone. I don't mean ignorant as an insult I mean it as a lack of knowledge. Some people don't realize that insects are animals, too.

 

[What 23]

^Yes and companies like Monsanto with their chemicals may be largely responsible for bee die off. The Monarch butterflies which eat one food- milkweed, are now endangered because of sprays designed to destroy it. These are big time pollinaters. What happens when/if they go?

Goodbye almonds, apples... Lots of stuff.
And food sources for many.

 

[murphythecat]

indeed, organic food is not really organic anymore. Monsanto are controlling every grain out there and they are mostly all modified.

^Yes and companies like Monsanto with their chemicals may be largely responsible for bee die off. The Monarch butterflies which eat one food- milkweed, are now endangered because of sprays designed to destroy it. These are big time pollinaters. What happens when/if they go?

Goodbye almonds, apples... Lots of stuff.

I fail to see what this has to do with our thread here.
vegetable farms are much less damageable for the environments then meat farms. so again, it shows clearly howwrong it is to continue with meat farms. its immoral not only for the animals being killed, but also for the environment because its the most damaging industry ,environmentally wise, on the planet

maybe read those links?
http://science.time.com/2013/12/16/t...at-production/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Environ...eat_production
https://woods.stanford.edu/environme...al-environment
http://beyondfactoryfarming.org/get-...ts-meat-eating

 

[What 23]

I agree things need to be different... That meat farms suck...
And honestly I prefer my females (disregard how disrespectful that may sound I don't mean it that way) to be at least mostly meat free. They smell better. Or seem to. I don't know. But when I see Heather Graham for instance she just looks... Edible.
So does this Freelee the Banana girl.

She eats raw until 4 PM then I think she eats something cooked... Vegetable, and fruit. She is basically a frugivore.
But I don't know if this is sustainable... For everyone. Unless we do a mass radical conversion of the way we live. But I just don't see that as likely at this moment.
I'm afraid we might have to drive this earth to near extinction to make our move.

I think that there might be some promise in genetically modified foods, but that is a very broad term, and I don't think the current ones are really to anyone's benefit. Except some greedy people that are experimenting with things they don't fully understand, and on a mass scale, without our consent... They return big profits in cash...
And we are complacent.

I do wonder though if we are going to have to suffer a huge hit to survive.
I honestly wish for a culling sometimes. Kill humans. Reduce our population. We are filth. In respects.
We have so much potential.

 

[turkalurk]

I can agree with that one! Vegan women kick ass! I love their compassionate and empathetic enthusiasm, and I admire their strength and integrity with such strong conviction! To each, their own sky regardless of species! I can dig that utopia!

 

[turkalurk]

ha, that's why I wantes to voice my thoughts. I would never get this deep with vegans in an offline environment, because I don't want to knock them off such a beautiful horse! I wouldn't want to make them question themselfs and feel any uncomfortable cognitive dissonance or make them feel less beautiful. Sorry vegans, just ignore everything I said and carry on without a second thought about it. I only ask that you lighten up on us morally corrupt meat eaters. It is our nature, and not all of us possess the will to sacrifice practicality, and the strength to overcome our humanity.

 

[-=SS=-]

That Freelee Banana Girl and her partner are fucking insane dude. I remember coming across them a long time ago. Total nutbars.

 

[What 23]

I think her diet may work for her... But I've seen plenty of criticism. I watch her videos even while knowing such a diet is impossible for me, for various reasons. I can think of other reasons you may have to say that, though.

 

[swilow]

I think its funny how vagans feel the need to attack a person's choice to eat meat, while claiming moral superiority and an excess of compassion and empathy. How ironically smug...

How massively assumptive.

Us and them okay? It makes everything better

 

[ForEverAfter]

^It's revealing how much non-vegans perceive vegan attitudes as an attack.
In other words: I'm not claiming superiority, I'm just saying how I feel.

I think it's wrong to contribute to the meat industry.
I don't think it's wrong to kill animals or eat meat.
This isn't indicative of an excess of compassion and empathy.
The meat industry is pretty fucked up. Look into it.
If you don't want to look into it, remain ignorant.

Nobody on the meat side has yet provided a reasonable explanation as to why it is okay to contribute to the enslavement and suffering of animals, excluding specific situations in which meat is required in order to sustain local populations... We don't need it, so - considering the realities of where it comes from - we shouldn't consume it.

If someone tells you that you shouldn't rape people (or goats), that isn't them being smug or superior: it's just someone expressing their social ideologies... If you want to live in a world where nobody says how they feel, for fear of being labeled smug, then you should avoid internet forums in general...

 

[swilow]

^A good post, and one I am grateful for. There appear to be at least three sides (perhaps more) to this coin.

Anyone who claims veganism is morally superior has missed the ultimately subjective nature of morality. Obviously, I am a vegan who made the choice solely for himself as a means of trying to substantiate my pre-existing suspicions, that I could live without being exploitative and still be healthy. Its worked for me, but I care not what the rest of you people do Veganism/vegetarianism is rarely about trying to save lives or create dramatic, revolutionary change; its about trying to make the individual feel better about their life. As a vegan, the impact I have is utterly minimal, in terms of lives saved/carbon footprint/etc. If I was truly on a moral crusade, where I felt my views were more correct then others and that they were views that needed to be imposed due to their 'superior' nature, I would be burning down factory farms and releasing animals from zoo's or trying to create changes in law. As it stands, most vegans do little to promote this diet as morally superior, given the paucity of real world impact most people expect from their veganism and those that do should be confronted with that fact.

Still, I think its a step in a good direction, trying to minimise negative impact on the world.

 

[What 23]

So raping a humans is comparable to eating meat? Or supporting the "meat industry"?

I have suffered for a long time with a very restricted diet, and have tried many things. Pretty much every whole food available, I would say. Chicken works. It is practical. It supplies protein requirements.
I was 120 lbs before I began to eat chicken.
I am six feet tall.
Now I'm a normal weight of 170.

I imagine vegans make a healthy meal.

I've desired to become a vampire. Suffering daily allergic reactions to food can lead the mind to consider things... Like "can I clone my body and eat it?", along with suicide. Like "what am I supposed to eat? Why am I even holding on?".

And being a vampire.
Yes, I would eat people, or I'd be okay with being a vampire. I'd gladly reduce the population, and have power. I'd accept the curse. Oh fantasy.

 

[What 23]

The first time I ate non sea meat in years I had a dream that I was driving around with human body parts. At the time I was transporting human body parts, such as bones, skin, hearts, lungs, eyes...
But I saw the chicken as very close to human.
I kept eating it.
Fuck all of you.

 

[turkalurk]

yes I don't have know if I have figured the quote button out or not, but yes when you take a select portion of text out of its context and assume its a generalization of all vegans it can seem assumptive. Vegans do attack and judge others for their diet preferences. Not all, but some. I made it very clear that I was only criticising those who held it as a morally and ethically superior position that everyone should uphold. Its not the same thing as raping a goat. What a ridiculous strawman. What it is the same as is: eating a dead goat that was already butchered by another. I bet if everyone had to kill their own food, there would be more vegans.

I also want to reiterate that I have said it was a nice philosophy. I admire it, and the ones who care enough to do their part. I was not being facetious when I called it a beautiful moral high horse. I would love to tame such a beast. But, I am comfortable with my midsized one. I love the taste of meat, unfortunately, I can't give it up. I have accepted this part of my humanity to the point that I won't loss my appetite anymore when I am reminded of the animal it once was and what kind of life it had. ai guess it makes me feel better to know these animals wouldn't have a life at all if we didn't raise them to eat. Anyway, the vegans that do it for their own personal preference without judging others are the kind of people I look up to. I respect those kinds of vegans/people.

ok i see that was not the quote button, I will try to figure it out next time.

 

[turkalurk]

^It's revealing how much non-vegans perceive vegan attitudes as an attack.
In other words: I'm not claiming superiority, I'm just saying how I feel.

I think it's wrong to contribute to the meat industry.
I don't think it's wrong to kill animals or eat meat.
This isn't indicative of an excess of compassion and empathy.
The meat industry is pretty fucked up. Look into it.
If you don't want to look into it, remain ignorant.

Nobody on the meat side has yet provided a reasonable explanation as to why it is okay to contribute to the enslavement and suffering of animals, excluding specific situations in which meat is required in order to sustain local populations... We don't need it, so - considering the realities of where it comes from - we shouldn't consume it.

If someone tells you that you shouldn't rape people (or goats), that isn't them being smug or superior: it's just someone expressing their social ideologies... If you want to live in a world where nobody says how they feel, for fear of being labeled smug, then you should avoid internet forums in general...

if you don't think killing animals for food is wrong than obviously I wasn't talking about you as I condemned the industry as well. Its smug to assume you know your way is the right way that everyone should follow. thats why I don't chop up quotes out of context, it leads to misinterpretation for those who only read the portion you selected to stand on its own.

 

[swilow]

yes I don't have know if I have figured the quote button out or not, but yes when you take a select portion of text out of its context and assume its a generalization of all vegans it can seem assumptive. Vegans do attack and judge others for their diet preferences. Not all, but some.

As do some meat-eaters to vegans (source: see above), some paleo-diet hipsters to Atkins fiends, so on. There is no point in saying some; it is a given that any ethical system may have proponents who are aggressive and narrow-minded. It just seems like perhaps your consumption of meat makes you feel guilty so you have projected condemnation of your diet onto others. I, as a vegan, do not give a fuck about what you eat, I am concerned with my own ethics and following through my own ideals. Obviously, I think the world would be heaps better if people consumed only free range, sustainably farmed, kindly treated animals, and increased their intake of fruit/vegetables/nuts etc. But I'm not going to impose anything; I don't think that change happens in that way, and a world of vegans would be quite odd. I can live without meat and animal products, but I am well aware that I live in a rich country and have the means to do so. But because I can live without these things, I feel like I ought to. I respect the fact that its not always possible.

I think it is important that we appreciate the lifeforms that are sharing this planet with us. In fact, out intelligence, self-awareness and empathy suggests that we are OBLIGATED to do this. Surely, to an animal that is giving us it's EVERYTHING, we could try and pay-it-forward by giving it some quality of life, some chance to share in what we are all currently sharing anyway.

I bet if everyone had to kill their own food, there would be more vegans.

Totally agree. I know that I would be unwilling to kill an animal for food if I could otherwise avoid it.

I also want to reiterate that I have said it was a nice philosophy. I admire it, and the ones who care enough to do their part. I was not being facetious when I called it a beautiful moral high horse.

Dude, when you begin discussing an ethical viewpoint or practise as a "moral high horse" you've already lost much of your audience. That sounds like you just wish to either disparage veganism/vegetarianism or that you don't understand what the real world applications of the term 'high horse'. Because its a negative descriptor and that sort of off-the-cuff remark just points to ignorance of one form or another.

It is true that if everyone went to veganism, mass catastrophe would ensue. But you have to come up with a better reason to inflict sufferring on a fellow animal then 'it tastes good'. That is utterly weak reasoning.

 

[turkalurk]

As do some meat-eaters to vegans (source: see above), some paleo-diet hipsters to Atkins fiends, so on. There is no point in saying some; it is a given that any ethical system may have proponents who are aggressive and narrow-minded. It just seems like perhaps your consumption of meat makes you feel guilty so you have projected condemnation of your diet onto others. I, as a vegan, do not give a fuck about what you eat, I am concerned with my own ethics and following through my own ideals. Obviously, I think the world would be heaps better if people consumed only free range, sustainably farmed, kindly treated animals, and increased their intake of fruit/vegetables/nuts etc. But I'm not going to impose anything; I don't think that change happens in that way, and a world of vegans would be quite odd. I can live without meat and animal products, but I am well aware that I live in a rich country and have the means to do so. But because I can live without these things, I feel like I ought to. I respect the fact that its not always possible.

I think it is important that we appreciate the lifeforms that are sharing this planet with us. In fact, out intelligence, self-awareness and empathy suggests that we are OBLIGATED to do this. Surely, to an animal that is giving us it's EVERYTHING, we could try and pay-it-forward by giving it some quality of life, some chance to share in what we are all currently sharing anyway.



Totally agree. I know that I would be unwilling to kill an animal for food if I could otherwise avoid it.



Dude, when you begin discussing an ethical viewpoint or practise as a "moral high horse" you've already lost much of your audience. That sounds like you just wish to either disparage veganism/vegetarianism or that you don't understand what the real world applications of the term 'high horse'. Because its a negative descriptor and that sort of off-the-cuff remark just points to ignorance of one form or another.

It is true that if everyone went to veganism, mass catastrophe would ensue. But you have to come up with a better reason to inflict sufferring on a fellow animal then 'it tastes good'. That is utterly weak reasoning.

Yes, my food preferences are rarely well thought out. I eat what taste good to me. Not a healthy lifestyle, you are right, my moral horse is smaller than yours. Did you forget I already agreed with as much. How empathetic of you to rub it in.

How do you know what suffering I inflict by eating dead food? How do you know the food I eat suffers at all? It seems pretty dead to me when I eat it.

 

[What 23]

Well, when you buy a product, you encourage it's production. Therefore, in the case of buying a McDonalds beef patty or something, you encourage suffering, as their supplies come from these crowded factory farms.

Dairy, as well, unless you are really conscientious about what kind of dairy you buy/the source, you are very likely contributing to animal suffering.

 

[ForEverAfter]

How do you know what suffering I inflict by eating dead food? How do you know the food I eat suffers at all? It seems pretty dead to me when I eat it.

Go visit an abattoir.

If you know that eating meat is wrong and you make no effort to stop doing it, you're causing yourself suffering also. Whether or not you repress the pain is irrelevant. Repressed pain is worse, spiritually, at least, than experiencing much more intense pain head-on (IMO)...

There's not a huge difference between the logic involved in determining that racism is immoral. We have, historically, justified mass-scale wrong-doings in the absence of race equality. Species equality takes slightly more enlightened thinking, in the sense that it is one step removed - again. What I'm saying is: some people, historically, failed to recognize the oneness of the human race; and, now, some people fail to recognize the oneness of the planet... It is in our nature to be skeptical, to re-act based on fear... but it is also our nature to look back - once the fear has subsided - and think about what really happened...

There's clearly a trend towards veganism and eco-friendly lifestyles because we have witnessed the (moral and the practical) ramifications of disregarding and / or mistreating nature.

Note: True species equality is not possible, because of the food chain...
What I'm suggesting is: it should be illegal to mistreat animals, but not to eat them.

And, like I said, the law is trending towards this.
The standards are getting better and better.
They're still awful; it's going to take time.
But, at least, we're getting somewhere.

How do we make a difference, as individuals?

We stop consuming animal products and we voice our opinions; we take personal responsibility for the consequences of our actions; we defend those without voices; we say, "this is wrong"... and the fact that it annoys people (in the same way slave owners were infuriated by outspoken non-racists) is to be expected... People tend to shoot the messenger. There is, more often than no, no tangible reward for a good deed.

 

[swilow]

Yes, my food preferences are rarely well thought out. I eat what taste good to me. Not a healthy lifestyle, you are right, my moral horse is smaller than yours. Did you forget I already agreed with as much. How empathetic of you to rub it in.

I said nothing about healthiness or otherwise, and I didn't read your concession anywhere in the post I was responding to. I admit, I haven't read every single thing you have written here, so I apologise if I'm responding to things you have already explained.

See, I'm not making any claims about my own morality. I'm not projecting my own biased fantasy onto a large, diverse, independant group of people who do what they do for many different reasons. Your continued reference to high and low horses is your own problem and focus that you introduced in the first place, this grading of morals and ethics, so please don't bother pretending that I'm also grading beliefs and choices likewise.

How do you know what suffering I inflict by eating dead food? How do you know the food I eat suffers at all? It seems pretty dead to me when I eat it.

What exactly is your point? Yes, you are eating dead food. I agree, that is better then its counterpart, but I can't see any other point. If you are saying that I am making an assumption about the origin of the meat you consume; its hard not to think that, as with nearly every other person who eats meat today, your diet does consist of meat farmed in questionable ways because thats the majority of meat available, and you don't seem to have stated otherwise. Note that I think it ridiculous that other sources of ethically farmed meat are not more widespread and most people are unable to truly verify the origins of what they consume anyhow, so its an uphill battle.

I think you can actually eat meat products and avoid inflicting 'great' suffering on animals. To me, its not about the dying; that's inevitable for all creatures and there is a certain nobility in dying so others can live (we on earth are all one extended family anyway, even though some of us have fur or 8 legs), but I am more concerned with the quality of the animals living. Surely you would concede that there is some value in another lifeform being able to experience satisfactorily its distinguishing quality, that of existing, being alive, at least in purely biological terms? Or, maybe put differently, what is the harm in treating animals respectfully and why isn't that one of many priorities? If life is partially about evolution towards intelligence or, at least, geater self-determination, it seems improper to interrupt this directive without doing so with uptmost respect, awareness and compassion.