Vasoconstriction

[poonja]

I am an older man beginning to rediscover (or discover for the first time) the personal benefits from wise/judicial use of psychedelics. As an older (67) man, I do not wish to use psychedelics/disasociatives that place too much of a strain on my heart. I understand that most psychs may have that effect to some degree taking into dose, of course. What are the best and worst of these psychoactives from that standpoint. Thank you for your assistance.

 

[.:Holy::Toast:.]

Phenethylamines (2c-x and mescaline are phens but I'm not sure if mescaline also produces similar vasoconstriction) and psychedelic amphetamines (DOx) chems are on the worse side for vasoconstriction.
Psilocin and psilocybin mushrooms and LSD seem to be okay for vasoconstriction imo, I certainly have not noticed the usual cold hands/feet I usually get from some 2c-x chems.
Do you have any current heart conditions or are you simply being cautious?

 

[roi]

I have never noticed signs of vasoconstriction (such as genital shrinkage) on the 2C series.

Not everything that feels a little cold = vasoconstriction.

 

[Cream Gravy?]

I get hard shrinkage on LSD and all phens. I would suggest tryptamines if you're worried about vasoconstriction.

Some people are more prone to it though I feel. I get cold hands/feet on a daily basis, it makes it hard to sleep sometimes without first bathing my feet in a warm bath.

 

[.:Holy::Toast:.]

I have never noticed signs of vasoconstriction (such as genital shrinkage) on the 2C series.

Not everything that feels a little cold = vasoconstriction.

I do, but not just cold hands but very pale.
I noticed it more with NBOMe but also on 2c-e and 2c-p.
I'd also like to add I have not heard of vasoconstriction being harmful unless it is long term such as in the case of amphetamine addicts.
I can't see how slight vasoconstriction from a psychedelic trip every now and then could be harmful

 

[poonja]

Thank you all for your kind responses. In reply to your question: I do suffer from coronary artery disease with two stents placed in 2008. Fortunately, I have nor damage to my heart and am in pretty good condition. I figured the doXX compounds would not be the best choice for me. I seems as if I am reasonable with dosing, most psychedelics and mxd and 3-meo-pcp should be fine in reasonable doses ( I never was a hard head). It also appears as if I should avoid amt as well. I am also experimenting with micro dosing iboga (300 mg). It is a very worthwhile substance. Mildly stimulating and a mood brightener most of the time. As time passes you begin to realize you are seeing/feeling things somewhat differently perhaps deeper in some ways. In any event, I appreciate your sharing knowledge experiences with me although we may have a somewhat perspective on our uses of these miraculous substances.

 

[DrGreenthumb]

Any drug that effects serotonin & has some psychedelic effects is going to have some vasocontriction & other possible adverse effects on your heart & vascular system, that's what serotonin does outside the brain. Hopefully occasional use is little more harmful than doing some exercise, these effects seem to be worse with repeated/continual use. I'd say mushrooms, tryptamines & 2C-xs seem less harmful than LSD or other ergoloids, but you take your own risks. Certainly don't do it if you have some pre-existing serious heart condition. Coronary problems are a risk with any psychedelic, afaik, they're all going to produce or have similar effects to excess serotonin outside the brain & that can have an effect on the heart/circulation. AFAIK it's long term use that causes heart problems, but if you already have heart problems then it's an extra risk.

 

[St3ve]

Lsa to me seemed to cause the worst in terms of vasoconstriction, very feeble feeling legs and sore knees. I'd agree with others here that psilocybin shrooms are less harsh in this regard. I'm not aware of dissociatives causing notable vasoconstriction, both mxe and dxm do increase heart rate though.

 

[TonyBKK]

I would think since LSD is chemically similar to Methylergometrine (Used in an OB/GYN setting to prevent/control PPH) it would share to some extent its vasoconstrictive properties. Methylergometrine (Trade name: Methergine) is contraindicated in HT patients and can cause coronary artery vasoconstriction as an ADR.

Any compound that stimulates the sympathetic nervous division can cause vasoconstriction, if you are worried about these compounds affecting your CAD it might be wise to have access to some sublingual nitroglycerin if you feel some chest tightness or angina. Are you currently taking any calcium channel blockers or ACE inhibitors? It might also be worthwhile doing a quick check about drug interactions.

 

[Xorkoth]

I would avoid the DOX series for sure, they cause vasconstriction and are stimulants to some degree. I would probably avoid all phenethylamines just to be safe as they cause more stimulation and given your concerns about your heart, it seems prudent. That leaves tryptamines and ergoloids basically. Tryptamines are going to be your safest bet, as they are quite benign on the body, do not cause vasconstriction, and do not stress the heart. Ergoloids (like LSD) maybe cause a bit of vasconstriction in some but are probably okay for you to use, I would guess. I'd start cautiously and see if you experience anything worrisome.

But as mentioned, LSA (morning glory seeds, hawaiian baby woodrose seeds) do cause quite a bit of vasconstriction.

 

[TheChin]

Any compound that stimulates the sympathetic nervous division can cause vasoconstriction, if you are worried about these compounds affecting your CAD it might be wise to have access to some sublingual nitroglycerin if you feel some chest tightness or angina. Are you currently taking any calcium channel blockers or ACE inhibitors? It might also be worthwhile doing a quick check about drug interactions.

The bulk of the vasocontriction produced by 5-ht2a stimulation is due to activation of calcium channels, and to a lesser extent, stimulation of the COX pathway (which produces vasoconstrictor substances). References below.

If you happen to be on a calcium channel blocker (CCB), this should offer some protection against the vasoconstriction produced by many psychedelics. Verapamil is my preference for this purpose. If you prefer the natural route, magnesium is a natural calcuim channel antangonist. Obviously, you'd want to be under the care of a physician before taking these kinds of meds.

Blocking the COX pathway is also beneficial in this setting. Typically, NSAIDs tend to slightly increase blood pressure (so using them for this purpose seems counterintuitive), but in the context of lots of 5-ht2a stimulation, the net benefit is a reduction in vasocontriction. Again, my preference for this is ibuprofen, which I take before/during every trip. In my experience, ibuprofen also reduces some of the other psychedelic side-effects, like increased mucous production. But there's a caveat. I've found that ibuprofen, if the dose is high enough, also alters the mental part of the trip. The trip becomes more lucid, and less trippy. This is not always a good thing - I like the crazy mindset sometimes. As to why COX inhibitors would alter the mental part of a trip, there's long been evidence that NSAIDs have a positive effect on various neurological diseases - it's been studied in schizophrenia and Alzheimer's disease, among others, so they are clearly active in the brain.

In any case, be cautious about using antihypertensive meds for tripping purposes. Typically, the effects of the blood pressure meds (nitroglycerin excluded) have a longer duration than the vasoconstrictive effects of psychedelics, which means you can get a large drop in blood pressure when the trip ends. I nearly killed myself by downing lots of blood pressure meds when I panicked during a trip, and when the trip ended, my blood pressure crashed dramatically.

References (I posted these on another website, btw, which also includes more info on this topic):

1). Contribution of thromboxane A2 in rat common carotid artery response to serotonin. Sci Pharm. 2010;78(3):435-43. doi: 10.3797/scipharm.1004-04. Epub 2010 Jun 15.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3002812/

2). Endogenous vasoconstrictor prostanoids: role in serotonin and vasopressin-induced coronary vasoconstriction. J Pharmacol Exp Ther. 1991 Jul 1;258(1):292-8.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2072301

 

[Thomas Davie]

poonja; I'm 54 and have lived with kidney failure for over 13 years. I am concerned about my CV system because when I was admitted to the hospital in 2001, my bp was 250/180. As long as I keep my bp under control, I minimize further renal damage.

Medical MJ (doctors are okay with that), mushrooms (I grow them), low doses of LSZ and Al-Lad (I top out at 150 micrograms, just won't take more). 4-AcO-DMT and 4-AcO-MeT (these 2 up to about 25ish mg of the fumarate salt). I abuse mushrooms.

I've monitored my bp while tripping, and no change on what I've described. Am physically active.

Medications I'm on; beta blocker, calcium channel blocker, smooth muscle relaxer and antihyperlipidemic.

My doctors would not be happy with my drug use other than pot, but I've got enough if a Pharmacology background that I'm comfortable with what I'm doing.

Hope this helps a bit.

Tom

 

[poonja]

I do take magnesium every day and will take extra when I indulge. Was not aware about the benefits of nsaids and always avoided them as they are hard on the liver but I would not think occasional use in conjunction with my use of psychostimulants would be harmful. Thomas, what do you use for BP control. I have found exercise, healthy diet and supplements help to keep me in normal range. gain, thank you all for your input. I do believe this is a good subject for all to consider in planning for intelligent use.

 

[Shamanism]

I do not get vasoconstriction often, but have you tried l-arginine? It is a potent vasodilator.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9833603

 

[pupnik]

I am old-ish at 62 but I do not really consider myself old - though I still like phenethylamines, I do not recommend them to you - your complexities need to be respected.
I would only recommend up to 1.5 al-lad blotters or up to 1.5 lsz blotters and nothing else except maybe medical marijuana.
play safe and start low with them (start with 1/2) take at least a 3 day break between experiments.

 

[poonja]

Pupnik. Thank you for your response. Is there any reason to avoid the tryptamines as I thought they were less stimulating than the phens? Thanks again.

 

[#Intothemdrugs]

Was gonna mention 4 aco dmt but someone beat me to it. Personally its one of my favorite psyches (that and lsd), but the thing that I love about it is that i can just order and ship it to my house. Makes it much easier than going through some sketchy dealer. It also is (supposedly, some say its active on its own) metabolized to psilocin, so theoretically it is very safe. It is a research chem though, so it doesnt have the established safety profile of shrooms or lsd. Ive read reports of people taking 200 and 500 mg and being fine physically during and after the trip. Might be the safest and most convenient choice.

 

[#Intothemdrugs]

Pupnik. Thank you for your response. Is there any reason to avoid the tryptamines as I thought they were less stimulating than the phens? Thanks again.

They are less stimulating than phens, which is why you should avoid phens. The stimulation also causes vasoconstriction and faster heartbeat. These chemicals are related to amphetamines and norepinephrine which both increase heart rate and bp, while tryptamines are related more to serotonin.

 

[poonja]

Thank you for your input, my friend.

 

[pupnik]

Pupnik. Thank you for your response. Is there any reason to avoid the tryptamines as I thought they were less stimulating than the phens? Thanks again.

trypts are great,
you may have some nausea on come up - so what I say.
same with lysergamides (which are sort of tryptamines).

the rewards are obvious, and no pharmacological danger.