Discussion Vaping 7-OH wtf is this

[4DQSAR]

Wow - potent opioid turns out to behave just like other potent opioids.

7-OH mitragynine is only found in tiny amounts in kratom. I'm almost 100% certain that people are buying mitragynine (an item of commerce) and are performing the oxidation. I know of three routes. Two use heavy metals so where is the waste going and is the product clean? Or there is the original method used by Japanese researchers that uses a hypervalent iodine compound that appeared and disappeared from the commercial market because it's an expolsive AND costly.

So I presume it's made using a toxic heavy metal.

There may well be other single electron transfer oxidations that will work, but I'm not certain anyone selling a product that could be banned at any moment would invest in finding new routes.

Make no mistake - the people making these do not care about the end user. But try to act surprised when some idiot starts offering eseroline or another naturally occuring opioid.

In animal models 7-OH mitragynine was something like x23 more potent than morphine. I don't know what the human figure is.

 

[JackARoe]

So I presume it's made using a toxic heavy metal.

I was wondering if a chemical process was used to convert. I mean 7-oh exists in small amounts in Nature. I figured some process converting was used.

Make no mistake - the people making these do not care about the end user. But try to act surprised when some idiot starts offering eseroline or another naturally occuring opioid.

Nope, and some humans are not mature enough to stumble on things. I notice many (not all) of the end users accept anything too. I am sure some of these products are not clean. I remember the first round of extracts years ago. A lot were adulterated.

One must be wise as an owl and sly like a fox...... to which most humans are not.

 

[4DQSAR]

I kept noting that there were online laboratories specifically offering testing for kratom and kratom products... and they offered heavy metal testing as an extra service (and at an additional cost).

There are two schools of thought. One is that kratom is being grown on sites contaminated by heavy metals and/or they performed a few analyses and found heavy metals to be common be it via soil and/or synthesis.

I have no idea how potent 7-OH mitragynine is in man, but if it's x23 more potent than morphine in animal models, it's quite likely to share that potency in man.

Would you want to get hooked on something x23 M in potency?

The last viable Uupioid is likely around x23 M and that is why I have not detailed it. I checked my logic with others in the field who agreed that yes, around x23 would seem correct... but the deaths... Am I odd for not wishing harm to others?

 

[notsmokeymcpot42088]

I can tell you 23x potent as morphine is not translating to analgesia or euphoria for the person I know 7-0h, no way. Roughly 5x Id say as they are claiming a 25mg is about = to 100mg of morphine (but not as good notedly) and I am guessing the pills are a bit under dosed. Since this appears to be legal in the US I am going to grab some in powder form and continue testing.

lmao @ potent opioid performs like other potent opioids -- was thinking the same thing, that's how it works get the alkaloid steroid it up and sell it. Than ppl go ohh crap that's a lot worse than the plant what happened??!!

The heavy metal is of concern though person has real bad kidneys; quit developing at like 8. (Scarlet Fever, not scarlatina either) so I suppose I should ask at what kind of doses and frequency would you see these heavy metals becoming a problem. I will be sure to stay WAY under that. --- I could absolutely see overdoses though from kids who still think "Legal means safe" (Idk why anyone would ever think like that with so many poisons readily available) and take the whole pack which 4 25's may be enough. I have not heard of too many deaths attributed to it yet but I haven't been watching either tbh

 

[Quasimoto]

In terms of raw analgesic power relative to dose, I would agree it's nowhere near 23x potency. Closer to 3-5x in vivo.

7Oh does pack impressive analgesia potency, but it does not activate the receptor nearly as efficiently as morphine. 7oh has considerably less sedation, muscle relaxation, euphoria, and other classic effects compared to morphine.

7oh also has a clear ceiling effect, where morphine does not. It also has a hard tolerance that morphine does not-- my tolerance has reached a point where no amount of 7oh produces any analgesic effect... like 500mg in one does does nothing, you can "smoke yourself sober" as the adage goes.

In some ways it's actually less potent than morphine.

 

[Quasimoto]

Out of sheer curiosity I tried smoking some 80% 7oh powder off aluminum foil, because I'm a degenerate.

It "works" in a vague sense, but I can't recommend it. Felt like much was wasted. This may have something to do with my tolerance, but I threw down about 30mg on foil and took a few hits, and was very unimpressed. The boiling temp seems too high to smoke off foil, doesn't smoke well... puts off relatively little smoke and immediately turns into a very thick ominous black resin reminiscent of black tar heroin-- which at first excited my primitive junkie brain, but then left me with a large sense of disappointment. The smoke tastes just like the powder itself tastes. Not harsh.

I will stick to eating it.

 

[4DQSAR]

I can tell you 23x potent as morphine is not translating to analgesia or euphoria for the person I know 7-0h, no way.

I did specify animal models.

Also keen to know how you knew what you had really was 100% pure 7-OH mitragynine. All three oxidation processes fail to provide quantitative yields but I suppose if simple mitragynine is left, it isn't an issue for any vendor.

The ceiling effect is something I truly had no idea about - so I thank you for mentioning it. Even with opioids that have been in use for over 100 years (codeine), the ceiling dose is limited by the amount of the CYP2D6 enzyme in a person's body. I note both mitragynine and 7-OH mitrgynine have a methyl ether and I don't know of the O-desmethyl has ever been tested. Could it be even 7-OH mitragynine has an active metabolite and YMMV based on enzyme levels?

Science is great - I now have one answer and two more questions. Which is typical.

 

[notsmokeymcpot42088]

I did specify animal models.

Also keen to know how you knew what you had really was 100% pure 7-OH mitragynine. All three oxidation processes fail to provide quantitative yields but I suppose if simple mitragynine is left, it isn't an issue for any vendor.

The ceiling effect is something I truly had no idea about - so I thank you for mentioning it. Even with opioids that have been in use for over 100 years (codeine), the ceiling dose is limited by the amount of the CYP2D6 enzyme in a person's body. I note both mitragynine and 7-OH mitrgynine have a methyl ether and I don't know of the O-desmethyl has ever been tested. Could it be even 7-OH mitragynine has an active metabolite and YMMV based on enzyme levels?

Science is great - I now have one answer and two more questions. Which is typical.

I know you specified animals that (MY) take away is for some reason 23x in humans I am thinking no way based on what I have been seeing and experience reports (even more anecdotal) -- but ppl start with like 10mg ish
(We will say a 25mg pill really only has 18-20 *could be less of course) that would be equiv to 230 mgs morphine -- assuming they take a half pill as the box directs *they crazy reccomending doses but I am not them*.

I agree with your logic that most likely it is synthed from mitragynine sourced from someplace -- 20% give or plus is USUALLY a safe estimate on pill accuracy, no FDA involvement I hear you loud and clear! Have yet to try the 90 w/e or 68% powder; based on everything I read from the powder ppl; 23x potent is not crossing over to humans There would have been a rash of deaths I would think.

I also HIGHLY ENCOURAGE EVERYONE TO TREAT IT AS THOUGH IT WERE 23x POTENCY UNTIL YOU GET A FEELING FOR IT.

I didn't say anything about it having a ceiling effect? Also unaware of it if so ---- maybe I was talking about bupe and was unclear at some point idk.

 

[Quasimoto]

I also HIGHLY ENCOURAGE EVERYONE TO TREAT IT AS THOUGH IT WERE 23x POTENCY UNTIL YOU GET A FEELING FOR IT.

It's definitely a "less is more" drug, just like kratom. Taking large doses is counterproductive.

Also, I don't think it's harmless. It exacerbates my sleep apnea like crazy, and I've had noticeable respiratory depression combining it with other drugs.

I didn't say anything about it having a ceiling effect?

I did.

 

[Mjäll]

I thought his mic was another vape that he held to his mouth for five minutes without vaping it just to show that he has a vape channel

 

[Quasimoto]

I thought his mic was another vape that he held to his mouth for five minutes without vaping it just to show that he has a vape channel

I hate that guy's channel. He egregiously glorifies drug use and markets his channel towards teenagers. It's like anti-harm reduction. I'm also quite certain many of his war stories are fabricated.

 

[Quasimoto]

Could it be even 7-OH mitragynine has an active metabolite and YMMV based on enzyme levels?

I've wondered this myself. I know it has several metabolism pathways, or at least mitragynine does.

One interesting thing I've noticed is the high from very large doses lasts much longer than a moderate dose, in a non-linear almost exponential way. I wonder if there is a metabolism rate limit.

Mitragynine pseudoindoxyl is purportedly a metabolite of 7oh (within blood plasma, not the liver)... however, I've taken stupidly high doses of 7oh and never experienced any pseudo like buzz. Pseudo feels distinct compared to 7oh. I don't know...

More science is needed!

 

[4DQSAR]

https://sci-hub.st/https://doi.org/10.1021/acscentsci.9b00462

There appear to be far more papers on the metabolism of mitragynine than on 7-OH mitragynine.

O-demethylation of mytragynine has been confirmed but I cannot find the full set of 7-OH mitragynine metabolites.

It may well be the case that mitragynine and it's derivatives never became medicines due to potency varying due to enzyme activity. It's certainly an odd one. I would class it as a DLR. It's been known for a long time and no medicinal products have turned up.

I'm uncertain if 7-OH mitragynine is MOP selective or if it also acts at the NOP and or DOP and or KOP subtypes of the opiate receptors - 'duelist' opioids often display analgesic potency in animal models far higher (no pun intended) than they do in man. So hard to say what the analgesic potency is unless you are taking a prescribed opioid and substitute 7-OH mitragynine and find out how much gives the same pain relief. Euphoria is a side-effect.

 

[Mjäll]

I hate that guy's channel. He egregiously glorifies drug use and markets his channel towards teenagers. It's like anti-harm reduction. I'm also quite certain many of his war stories are fabricated.

Also he's like Man i love zaaans but Man i hate brainfog and being dumb

 

[Didgital]

Ok so I'm not proud of this, but I smoked about 20g of 63% 7-OH over about a month. I would put small pinches (20mg or so) sandwiched in between weed. There is an instant feeling of just goodness/relaxation before even exhaling. Very warm and euphoric however, I think the inhaled bioavailability is not as high as orally. The effects peak and wear off much quicker, and in that sense I did find it a bit fiendy. I would say the duration is maybe an hour and a half, but I would take a few tokes every 30 minutes. After 3-4 days of this my tolerance really went through the roof and I would require maybe 5x as much to achieve same effect. As I was smoking the last gram, I was bit worried, that maybe Id developed a physical dependency but i didn't experience any WD symptoms.

I will say that month I got some of the best sleep of my life.

Some of my doses were wildly high although they were generally spread out over a couple hours. But yeah it wasnt unusual for me to exceed 100mg over a couple hours. I never felt any sort of danger. There were probably a few times I smoked 50mg at once when my tolerance was high.

Overall, i'd say its more bang for the buck to eat it. Though, vaping it may work better than smoking it. Smoking it caused it to bubble and the entire bowl solidifies into a chunk that you kinda have to break up to continue smoking it. I also actually enjoyed the taste of the first few tokes.

Lastly, it reallly seemed to drop my tolerance to alcohol. 2 beers seems like 4.

 

[Quasimoto]

I smoked about 20g of 63% 7-OH over about a month.

but i didn't experience any WD symptoms.

No wds at all? Damn. I'm surprised. Are you one of those people immune to opi wds? Lol

I recently stopped taking subs for 4 days and went through 1g of powder. That gave me nasty wds for a couple days even after resuming subs at 2x my normal dose, though I suppose my brain is already predisposed.

20g over a month would definitely have me rattling.

 

[Didgital]

Are you one of those people immune to opi wds?

Is that actually a thing? I've never heard of that, and have always figured that anyone with an opioid dependence is going to feel like shit as the body relearns how to produce endogenous opioid again.

I wouldn't really know because up until this point, my opioid ab/use has been very minor. I have probably abused morphine type opioids on2 separate occasions in pretty low doses and only very briefly in my entire life.

The 7-OH i started off very slowly and carefully, but I suppose as I got more familiar with it over weeks/months while never noticing any bad effect from stopping use, even after taking every day for a week. So I got pretty comfortable and i suppose risky with it. One reason I did get a bit carried away was that slowly but surely, the experience of taking it orally became less euphoric. I would still get an obvious downer high, but my first 10 or so times taking it, were very euphoric and even had some tactile enhancement. So, I think chasing that component is when I decided to first smoke it, and I was instantly high. Over time, even smoking it in pretty high doses wasn't quite giving me the same effect.

That said, all my experience and then anecdotal reports lead me to believe it's probably safer than taking potent full spectrum MIT extracts. I personally know one individual that took 500mg of 7-OH orally in a single dose. I thought that was a bit reckless just because I know that with zero tolerance, 5mg is an light but active dose for me.

 

[4DQSAR]

Ok so I'm not proud of this,

Consumption of a chemical is a morally neutral act.

Case studies are generally classed as the lowest quality of evidence BUT don't forget that on BL, many people provide case studies to the point where we may well end up with statistically valid data. Every bit helps, so don't for a moment think your input isn't of value - because it most assuredly IS of value.

It sounds like you are beginning to display tolerance. That's generally the best point to give something a rest for a good long while. I made the mistake of tasting 3-MeO PCE daily for a week and then not touching it for a week assuming that would at least reduce my tolerance. It absolutely did not and I threw away however much was left in the jar. We all do dumb stuff.

Apropos opioids - William S. Burroughs pretty much sums up opioid addiction and how nobody ever sets out to be an addict. But in this case I think John Cooper Clarke actually put it better:

First it's fun. Then it's not. Then it's hell.

Maybe find something totally different to do? You now know what opioids do, find another class to explore or just something else.

 

[Didgital]

Every bit helps, so don't for a moment think your input isn't of value

For sure, I just think looking in from the outside it could look pretty reckless, and I suppose in regards to the addictive potential it was somewhat. So yeah its a touch embarrassing as I never thought thought I would smoke 20g of any opioid over my lifespan. Regardless I agree that the public deserves the data points especially the more extreme ones, so I don't really feel bad mentioning it. The guy who took 500mg orally actually asked me to not really talk about, but again more data points.

I "hear" people find it much more addictive than say regular powder or even MIT extracts. However, even with just the powder, I've really yet to meet a hardcore kratom addict that wasn't an opioid addict first... And that includes the 7-OH.

best point to give something a rest for a good long while

Oh I haven't touched it since I ran out a couple months back. I've been tempted to make some more though...

The reason I think full spectrum extracts are potentially more dangerous is the drug/drug interactions even with the different alkaloids found in kratom that, at high doses could confuse the brain. The 7-OH and pure MIT always felt really clean to me pharmacologically.

 

[Quasimoto]

Is that actually a thing?

I've always doubted it based on logic and common sense, but I've seen too many anecdotal claims of it happening that I suspect there might actually be something to it. Genetic resilience I suppose.

I mean literally people talking about coming off a long term fentanyl habit and saying they have no withdrawals cold turkey

Sounds bizarre, but stranger things have happened I guess.