Urgent question about clonazepam withdrawal

[steal_yourphace]

What your were your main symptoms? Right now I feel like i just have a ton of pressure in my head that is making it hard to concentrate and causing me a bit of anxiety...

 

[deaf eye]

be thankful your dose was relatively low and not over a long period of time,

im not trying to minimize what you are going thru
benzo withdrawl is hell
no matter what the dose


you are going to feel off an anxious,
i would stay away from things that lower your seizure threshhol for a while , http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seizure_threshold

i was stuck in like a 6 year rutt of trying to stop benzos
i would taper my dose down
then the anxiety would get to great and i would bounce back to big doses

you can do it,
maybe light exercise
yoga

benzobuddies.org has a wealth of info for benzo w/d http://www.benzobuddies.org/

 

[methamaniac]

The headaches are normal.
I mean headaches are a common side effect from benzo wd.
They were usually first thing I got.
Day or two after stopping like clock work. Seemed to affect sinuses. May be pressure you are feeling.
Sometimes not so bad but sometimes they were head busting. Excedrin migrane works wonders.
My main symptom was confusion.
Lack of concentration for sure.
But it was more than that. Seemed I had to work ten times harder to simple tasks.
For example, when I would get ready for work I would have to tell myself what to do
Ie pick up toothbrush, brush teeth, rinse
take shower, pick up soap, wash
lol nothing came easy.
Instinct seemed to suffer greatly.
I was "dumbed down" ....a space cadet.
Basically mental speed greatly dimished.
Other symptoms mood swings and anxiety
didnt bother me as bad as above. (Dont get me wrong they sucked too)
Good news my friend you will return to normal shortly.
Sometimes it just took me a day or two once symptoms kicked in other times it took 3-5 days.
Never could pinpoint rhyme or reason.
Ironically they often use kpins for preventing seizures
but abruptly stopping it can cause seizures.
This is why it is always recommended to wing down.
But if this is not an option its not an option.
So worrying is pointless. Just remember if in same situation in future make sure you wean down.

 

[steal_yourphace]

Trying not to worry, I gotta stop reading all of the horror stories on here b/c they are scaring the shit out of me. Been taking ambien every night and that has definitely been helping me sleep through all of this. I almost took more kpin tonight but decided against it. Hopefully tomorrow is better! Thanks to all the people in this thread who are helping me out.

 

[neversickanymore]

http://www.drugabuse.gov/news-events/nida-notes/2012/04/well-known-mechanism-underlies-benzodiazepines-addictive-properties

Benzos may be more "addictive" than u might think.

Whether benzos are "addictive" is really an "arguement " over semantics.
You can definitely become dependent on them.
They can be used as a "crutch"/aid and they can be abused to negatively affect one's life.
And certainly can be used to a positive effect.

This is how I would define "bad" addiction.
Does a drug or behavior negatively affect my life? Am I able to correct this on my own?

Thanks for posting this. I need to sit down and read through this and the studies it came from. Initial take is that im not sure I the conclusion that benzos are addictive is just. It seems like quite an assumption to me at this point but I just read through the NiDA post briefly. There also seems to be some relevant questions.

If anyone is familiar with this I would love to know if the effects of benzos ever actually cause a greater dopamine release by themselves or do they only allow for a greater dopamine surge from activities or substances that actually stimulate the mesolimbic pathway. If the latter is true then they are could end up being capable of promoting addiction, but would not be addictive themselves.

Benzodiazepines currently on the market do not interact strongly with alpha-3 GABAA receptors on dopaminergic neurons and so have no direct impact on dopamine release. However, the drugs do interact strongly with alpha-1 GABAA receptors, thereby curtailing inhibitory interneurons’ release of GABA into synapses with dopaminergic neurons.

I was on Benzos for over two decades and abused them for periods. I do not feel that I was driven or compelled to abuse them rather it was a conscious choice taken to receive the pleasurable effects produced by the drug. There are also some very key components which are universal in addiction that seem to be missing with benzos. Some of these would include these taken from the comprehensive definition of addiction linked.

Addiction is characterized by2:
Inability to consistently Abstain;
Impairment in Behavioral control;
Craving; or increased “hunger” for drugs or rewarding experiences;
Diminished recognition of significant problems with one’s behaviors and interpersonal relationships; and
A dysfunctional Emotional response.
The power of external cues to trigger craving and drug use, as well as to increase the frequency of engagement in other potentially addictive behaviors, is also a characteristic of addiction, with the hippocampus being important in memory of previous euphoric or dysphoric experiences, and with the amygdala being important in having motivation concentrate on selecting behaviors associated with these past experiences.

I have had no problem abstaining since I kicked the physical dependence. In fact I had a half bottle of the pills sitting in a drawer in my room for the first year of abstinence from them. I did not keep it around like addicts tend to keep paraphernalia around from their DOC, often driven by an inability to discard it. I just never even thought about it and when I would stumble across it from time to time it elicited no significant response from me other then I glad im not on that shit anymore.

I have never had a craving for the drug. At times during active use I wanted the drug badly to remove the wretched withdrawal symptoms, but never craved it. I never have obsessively thought about it. The only emotional response that ever seemed to be effected was the ones it was designed to address.

I have never craved benzos.

I have never had any fantastical reward "memories" about their use.

Behavioral manifestations and complications of addiction, primarily due to impaired control, can include:
Excessive use and/or engagement in addictive behaviors, at higher frequencies and/or quantities than the person intended, often associated with a persistent desire for and unsuccessful attempts at behavioral control;
Excessive time lost in substance use or recovering from the effects of substance use and/or engagement in addictive behaviors, with significant adverse impact on social and occupational functioning (e.g. the development of interpersonal relationship problems or the neglect of responsibilities at home, school or work);
Continued use and/or engagement in addictive behaviors, despite the presence of persistent or recurrent physical or psychological problems which may have been caused or exacerbated by substance use and/or related addictive behaviors;
A narrowing of the behavioral repertoire focusing on rewards that are part of addiction; and
An apparent lack of ability and/or readiness to take consistent, ameliorative action despite recognition of problems.

I never experienced almost all of this due to Benzos and any continued use despite negative consequences was clearly the result of physical dependence.

Cognitive changes in addiction can include:
Preoccupation with substance use;
Altered evaluations of the relative benefits and detriments associated with drugs or rewarding behaviors; and
The inaccurate belief that problems experienced in one’s life are attributable to other causes rather than being a predictable consequence of addiction

.

None

Emotional changes in addiction can include:
Increased anxiety, dysphoria and emotional pain;
Increased sensitivity to stressors associated with the recruitment of brain stress systems, such that “things seem more stressful” as a result; and
Difficulty in identifying feelings, distinguishing between feelings and the bodily sensations of emotional arousal, and describing feelings to other people (sometimes referred to as alexithymia).

My anxiety definitely went up, but I think its pretty natural to have it go up if a person constantly fails to deal with the causes of their anxiety and instead tries to use a drug to treat it as benzos dont solve problems, they just keep sweeping them under the rug. Eventually the pile up so large the rug cant hide them anymore.

I fully realize that this is just my experience and I my not be prone to benzo addiction if it exists and other peoples experience may be different. I just know way to many addicts who have had the exact same experience.

At this point I far from being even a little sold that they are in fact addictive. But im going to keep an open mind when I find the time to take a good look at all this.

source for quotes http://www.bluelight.org/vb/threads/672623-Addiction-Guide

 

[methamaniac]

I have had no problem abstaining since I kicked the physical dependence. In fact I had a half bottle of the pills sitting in a drawer in my room for the first year of abstinence from them. I did not keep it around like addicts tend to keep paraphernalia around from their DOC, often driven by an inability to discard it. I just never even thought about it and when I would stumble across it from time to time it elicited no significant response from me other then I glad im not on that shit anymore

Both opiods and benzos affect you chemically.
Thus both can be chemically "addictive".
When you manipulate your body's chemical processes compulsion can be a consequence.
Someone can easily make a similar arguement that opiates arent addictive because they have had a bottle in their medicine cabinet for five years without having compulsion to take one.
My mom pukes if she takes half a hydro, she will absolutely not take any opiate. Zero complusion.
She doesnt know the experience of opiates being addictive so to her they are not. (Thankfully she is good at sympathizing)
But any opiate addict can tell you they are addictive. And any benzo addict can tell you they are addictive.
Its relative. This is why so many people misunderstand addiction.

Chemical and clinical are an illusion.
Everything is chemical. With opiate addiction,
benzo addiction, ssri addiction, or any addiction
there is a prime root.
Sometimes you can correct chemical imbalances naturally and sometimes you cant.
Sometimes you cause chemical imbalances and sometimes you dont.
Determining if something is "addictive" is determing what you do and dont have control of.
Physical and mental addiction differences is an illusion as well.
What affects the body affects the mind. And visa versa.
See gut-brain axis for proof of this

I totally understand where you are coming from.
I agree some drugs have a "more" negative/quicker
impact on your life, but imo the goal is to get rid of as much negative as realistically POSSIBLE.
I respect your point of view.
This is just mine. Could be wrong.

 

[steal_yourphace]

Can anyone tell me more about Gabapentin and how effective it is? I have only taken less than .5 mg since last Tuesday and I feel absolutely TERRIBLE. I am very tempted to take more b/c I have finals this week! What an awful time to discover I have a physical dependence on benzos. This truly sucks Any more help/advice would be greatly appreciated.

 

[steal_yourphace]

Also was curious if taking ambien for sleep every night will prolong my withdrawal symptoms? I've been on it for a couple months, but have taken long stretches in the past without any withdrawals except rebound aniety....I was pretty surprised to read online about all of the terrible withdrawals people have had with this medication.

One more question, should I consider getting on Valium, or have I not been on it long enough/high enough dosage to do this? Thinking about going to my doctor tomorrow since I'm feeling so bad to see if he can help me...

 

[neversickanymore]

^ I would consider seeing a therapist and exploring the roots of you anxiety. If you dive back in with a different benzo then your just going to make the hole you have started bigger. This will mean that eventually getting off them will be much more unpleasant and harder. wont get any better then what you have on your plate right now.

Both opiods and benzos affect you chemically.
Thus both can be chemically "addictive".
When you manipulate your body's chemical processes compulsion can be a consequence.
Someone can easily make a similar arguement that opiates arent addictive because they have had a bottle in their medicine cabinet for five years without having compulsion to take one.

I stated that my experience was only one and that other peoples may be different. I also stated that my experience was shared by many other addicts I know.

I have no idea what "chemically "addictive"" means. They both clearly cause physical dependency. This is very different from addiction.

As far as Im aware the only neurochemical manipulation that leads to compulsion is manipulation of the mesolimbic reward pathway.

Physical and mental addiction differences is an illusion as well.

No, it is not. Sometimes they are found together, sometimes alone. So I can see why this may be confusing.

 

[steal_yourphace]

Thanks neversickanymore. Unfortunately for me, I have finals this week, so I cant really afford to be in acute benzo withdrawal. I ended up taking a little more klonopin a few minutes ago to help me calm down so I can study. Can't wait till this week is over so I dont have to worry about school for a few weeks. It'll really suck to be home with my family for a few weeks while I go through this.

I have been considering going to see a therapist. I might start going to one when I get back home after New Years. Do you have any advice on Ambien during benzo withdrawal? Will it prolong the experience? I'm pretty addicted to it, but i've never had physical withdrawals from it. Now, however, I'm worried that it will make my kpin withdrawal longer.

 

[steal_yourphace]

I guess the more important question I have is, should I taper? Like I said, I have only taken about .5 mg or less since last Tuesday. The withdrawals have been very uncomfortable, but not unbearable, at least for the amount of time I was abstaining....I don't want to risk any dangerous side effects, but I don't want to prolong this longer than it needs to be....I guess my last question is, how long will the withdrawals last me and when will I start to feel better (ie when do the withdrawals peak in intensity?) THANK YOU again for your help guys.

 

[neversickanymore]

I think what you are exspierincing is natural anxiety surrounding final week. This my be elevated somewhat from your recent use of the benzos. When we get off a medication we can experience a rebound effect where the symptom we were trying to control gets strong for a little while. The brain likes its homeostasis and when we add in a substance to control the anxiety it will wramp up the power of the anxiety. When we remove the substance the system remains ramped up for awhile so anxiety will feal very strong.

No there is no danger if you have only taken .5 since last tuesday. I think you may just be really stressed out and feeling a large does of real life anxiety, combined with a bunch of real life stress.

 

[steal_yourphace]

Thanks, that is good to know, and is similar to what a friend of mine told me. I hope it is just that, and once school ends it will be easier to deal with all of this. I do, however, think that there is definitely some physical withdrawal in the mix. I've never felt this kind of anxiety before. I took a very small bit of kpin a little earlier and already feel much more at ease. I guess it is good to know that my tolerence is not high at all, so it should be hopefully be relatively easy to come off of this. I wish I had never started taking these, I feel like my anxiety is 10 times worse than what it used to be before I started taking these meds. Ironically, I started taking them to deal mostly with withdrawals when I was trying to quit kratom. Now, its hard to think about quitting kratom when I'm dealing with this type of withdrawal, but I hope to one day in the near future be free of both of these addictions.

 

[NiceEnough]

Hello steal_youphace, hello all. Joining this thread to give my 2cents based on my own experience.

I am volunteering in India and the stresses of being an alien in an alien environment has driven me to regularly use benzos, clonazepam most recently but also alprazolam, etizolam and diazepam. I have also been using tramadol on and off. After reading all the horror stories on BL and other forums, I was convinced I had given myself a full blow addiction in 3 weeks of constant use (with months of intermittent use prior to that) so I did a quick taper. Other than occasional severe headaches and severe and sometimes crippling rebound anxiety, I experienced little or no physical withdrawal symptoms. I agree with others in this thread that what is really hardest to deal with is learning to cope with anxious thoughts and feelings without medication.

I am still out in India and still get a bit anxious and paranoid so am now cycling meds - 1/2 days kpins, 2/3 days phenibut (it helps me a lot, but I don't go over 2g per day and really try to exercise self-control with it i.e. never every day), 1 day tramadol, then 1/2 days kpins and so on. I intend to carry this on until I get back to the UK. All the while, I am trying to meditate, do yoga, and look honestly at why I am driven to deal with my anxiety in this way.

At this point, given the extremity of my situation, I am not giving myself a hard time. I guess I am in a similar position to you, steal_yourphace, where I don't feel my current responsibilities allow space for the rebound phenomena that will likely ensue if I stop the kpins for an extended period of time. Nevertheless, I plan to go gently, initially replacing with twice a week phenibut (no more than 2.5g max a day, strictly, not the crazy doses that some folk on here have been bragging about) adding various supplement like L-Tryptophan, L-Theanine, Inositol and herbs like Kava Kava (got some coming in the post), Valerian, Passiflora, Brahmi, Tulsi, Ashwagandha (this one is particularly helpful for me), and various other things I have researched that what evidence there is suggests may be of help.

I also realise my own particularly anxiety is bound up with depression, and therefore am treating the depression and to some degree the anxiety with Remeron (mirtazapine) 30mg at night. Although my goal is to get back to a place where I am not medicating my emotions and where drugs become purely recreational again, the time for that is not right now. Will see how I feel when I get back to UK, and start working on a stricter programme to sort things out.

Even though when I take kpins I take high doses (4-6mg per day) I don't feel I have been doing so long enough to really screw me over - one more week and I fly back to the UK and do not plan for this pattern to continue. As your doses have been much lower, I expect you will suffer minimal 'real' physical withdrawals if any. But I am sure you will suffer psychologically, and the mind is a powerful thing and can do crazy things to your body. I am totally with you on stopping reading the horror stories online, they won't help. Good luck with everything, hope your finals go ok (and that you find something useful in my post).

 

[steal_yourphace]

Hey! Thanks NiceEnough! I have a ton of phenibut, and was thinking about taking it, but I dont want it to cause even worse rebound anxiety. What does L-theanine do for you?

I really hope its like you say, and that there is no physical dependence! Its hard to differentiate between physical and mental at this point. I was drinking almost every night for the past month, so maybe that contributed to how I'm feeling. I guess the good thing to come out of this is that I haven't drank for almost a week now.

Thanks for your input, definitely made me feel a little better. I feel pretty good today, but I did take a very small amount of kpin last night, so maybe thats why. I still have only taken .5mg or less since last week, since I hope things will slowly get better for me. Good luck to you! What kind of volunteer work were you doing in India? Sound very interesting. Anyways, good luck to you in your struggle! I know things will get better for both of us eventually.

 

[NiceEnough]

With phenibut, tread with caution. I can dose up to 2.5g a day, but less is more really so if I can keep the amount down I get less negative symptoms, e.g. rebound anxiety, although what I got from it was very manageable, much more manageable than benzo rebound. I also try to maintain the 2 days on 2 days off cycle but have only just started. Ideally I think 2 days on with 2g spread through the day (e.g. 500mg morning, 500mg lunch time, 1g night), then 3 or more days of would be the best option. I haven't tried L-theanine but have heard it might help so am on the lookout for some. I can't recommend ashwangandha enough as a long term safer option to manage anxiety (been used in ayurveda for thousands of years, has many other benefits too including cancer prevention, general strengthening of your whole system etc, is a great and powerful herb). Brahmi is another ayurvedic herd that improves brain function while reducing anxiety. Also, I have some Kava on the way and I know that works, it affects GABA-a receptors like benzos do, just less intensely but will definitely help. These herbs are no joke, they really work from my experience and there are some decent scientific studies to back up their effectiveness.

If you took a small amount of kpin last night it would probably be out of your system pretty quick so you may just me feeling good regardless, bear that in mind. It might not be the drug making you feel good, it might be you!!!

Re my volunteering, I have been trying to introduce some kind of sexual and reproductive health programme for young people in the country. There is no sex ed in school, and young people grow up having no idea about sex, leaving them confused and vulnerable. Diseases like HIV are spreading unchecked (where I am working there is no testing and nobody has any understanding of what HIV or any other STIs are) and sexual abuse and rape are horrifically common. Yet still Indians find it hard to talk openly about sex, no matter how bad things are getting. I am just trying to work with a few schools in the state Uttar Pradesh to get them to begin addressing some of the more important topics in their classes, in the mot sensitive way of course, but not telling any lies or half-truths, being honest. The students will appreciate that. I am currently trying to raise some money to pay for in-depth training on these issues for teachers. Here is the link to my fundraising page - http://www.giveindia.org/iGive-reproductivehealthforindia. Don't worry if you can't donate, but I explain in more detail exactly what the problem is I am trying to resolve on that page so you might be interested.

Because 'sex' is so stigmatised this is really tricky work and quite stressful, hence (perhaps an excuse but anyway) my recourse to medication as a crutch. But also very rewarding. I really hope I can change things here, otherwise more and more people, especially women and girls, will die needlessly.

But back to our getting off kpins programes, I am sure we will both be able to do it once the big stressful events are out of the way. Keep me informed, maybe PM if you want to, perhaps we can support and inspire each other, it is easier to do these things together than alone I reckon. Seriously good luck, you will make it for sure!

 

[NiceEnough]

p.s try to keep your drinking to a minimum, but as alcohol and phenibut for that matter act on GABA-b receptors (as opposed to GABA-a receptors with benzos) there are less issues about tolerance and they are safer things to support withdrawal with and soften the blow. You need to be disciplined with both though and alcohol is preetty poisonous stuff really. And remember, exams are f*****g stressful anyway, so you are bound to be a little wound up.

 

[steal_yourphace]

Thanks for all the suggestions guys. Today I've been feeling better, not having a ton of anxiety. I have taken a good amount of kratom, so that might have helped, but I dont feel nearly as bad as I have been the past week. I guess the good thing to come out of this is I havent had any alcohol for the past week. The only negative feeling I have been experiencing is the very strange head pressure where it almost feels like my head is throbbing. Today it was accompanied by a headache. This only bothered me when I was standing up or doing something stressful. When I lay down it gets better. Hopefully it all of that goes away soon. Good luck everybody on all of their struggles, and thank you again for your help. I've definitely learned my lesson, and wont be touching a benzo for quite some time.

 

[NiceEnough]

benzos are great tools and can be great fun when used responsibility. You are lucky this time, I reckon the head pressure and headaches will go soon, both can be symptoms of anxiety. Well done for making it his far, give yourself a pat on the back.

 

[pally pete]

Good luck everybody on all of their struggles, and thank you again for your help. I've definitely learned my lesson, and wont be touching a benzo for quite some time.

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