N&PD Moderators: Skorpio
Unsustainable drugs
endotropic
Bluelight Crew
That's really interesting, I wonder if ayahuasca drinkers develop a longer lasting tolerance?
I think a lot of people would find daily psychedelics difficult psychologically after a while, although some people seem to handle it well.
babylonboy
Bluelighter
If you're taking psychedelics daily, though, it's not like each trip is an earth-shattering revelation, it's just the slightly swirly, colourful, weird and amusing world that you're quite accustomed to. At one point I was tripping so often that it just became unremarkable, like smoking a joint or having a beer. When I've used psychedelics over a period of time like a festival, I've been known to give up and find other drugs because I've eaten 100mg of 2C-E and 50 of metocin and still don't feel a thing. I'm not dicksizing, I'm saying that a person who trips every day does not experience everyday the kind of thing that someone who drops once a year does. I remember reading a study about patterns of use in LSD users, positing that the heaviest users are actually the ones who are least able to cope with the effects of the trip, and that sustained use allows them to build the tolerance so they can participate without "facing their demons", as it were. It's old, probably outdated, probably not very rigorous, but it was interesting, I'll try to dig around for it if anyone wants.
Help?!?!
Bluelighter
^I found that not to be so with DMT. With things like 2c's or LSD I never really used for more than a three day period as tolerance would just be to much, but with DMT even whilst vaping daily I could easily have break though's, strong ones at that with as little as 70mgs of material. Six months in if I smoked anywhere past 80mgs I would be blasted right into that alien DMT world where my room barely even resembled my room anymore. Read around this is other peoples experience as well(I don't know if others used as vigorously as me but it's somewhat known vaped DMT has strange tolerance properties, as if you attempt to smoke it a couple hours after the last dose unless you up the anty, it will be like you stated but a day off seemed to be enough to nearly zero tolerance again and it definitely didn't form like regular psychedelics did as it never seemed to accumulate as harshly as other psyches with compounded use), though note this is only with DMT and shorter lasting tryps, it might work with things like DPT as well but i've never tried. As long as you keep trips to once as twice a month you can still have nearly as strong an experience as normal. While I do doubt it would be as strong as someone who's abstained for a year, its a bit much to attempt to say someone's trip would be that downgraded. I personally find psychedelics to be pretty random as at times i've been blown away unexpectedly during times when I was tripping fairly often, though I also tend to combine things. I truly enjoyed daily DMT, which besides having large amounts around for nearly free, is why I did it. For me though, only that rocket ride to the moon come up of DMT is difficult unless I dosed ridiculously, and even then i've only had a less than fun time...maybe ten times max, every other time is/was pure bliss. Never tried it with Aya, but I seem to remember certain Amazonian tribes that imbibed in Aya a fair amount though, can't remember what was said about their tolerance though. Aya is a lot heavier than smoked DMT though in certain terms IMO.
babylonboy
Bluelighter
Sorry, I should have been clearer, I meant a moderats dose, i recomcmed that pople take one big tike and hold it untll they start tripping, to get a feeling, not breaktrhough for virgins!
ZacherySwan
Greenlighter
The two most powerful drugs I have taken since I was age 18, and I am 62 years old now, were these two drugs, in terms of
being sustainable:
1. Methaqualone, I took my first one in August of 1971, at age, 22, my last one (all tablets) at age 32 in the year 1982.
Under the names, William H Rorer as 300mg "Quaalude" 90% of the time to Roussel "limey Ludes called "Mandrax" I
developed a instant love affair (for lack of a better word) with this non-barbiturate sedative, especially, when I usually
mixed it secretly, with inexpensive "Boone's Farm Wine". the attraction: a irresistible seduction, of self absorbed feelings,
of a constant "horniness" meaning, I craved intimacy and sexual union, with the opposite sex, and, as a "Anxiety prone
individual" (I still am), Methaqualone, relieved all inhibitions, for my shyness. It went further than that. I became so
obsessed with this drug, by the 15th month taking it every weekend, I obtained pads of blank prescriptions, to write my
own scripts for this drug, it so "overwhelmed me". After, the initial first I'd say 2 full years of 4 to 5 days per week use of
this drug, I'd had many sexual encounters, from one night stands, to, even getting engaged for marriage, "yet, the God
that was running me, was this particular drug" I was totally obsessed with. I also got into immediate problems with this
powerful downer, I was placed on scholastic probation at a large University, and, switched Universities, to another state to
avoid, the shame of being suspended from a major college. (#1 was Univ of GA, #2 was Univ of Miami, Fl) I took me with
me, meaning, my M.D's I left behind in at college number one, I quickly replaced at college number 2. My social contacts
stayed the same, 400 miles away. In spite of the ease of never being rejected for liberal amounts of Quaaludes, I found I
developed a narcissistic attitude, than when those of the opposite sex discovered I had access to Quaaludes, I was initially
approached to sell a few pills to attractive females, I rarely sold them, I either gave a few away, or traded a temporary
good time, for the moment, for sex on demand, as I indulged, with my new female contact.
The Methaqualone, had a very negative effect on my life, for years to come. By year no #3, my fiancé, got wise, and,
who also originally took the Quaaludes with me, for sex and immediate gratification, she saw the destruction, it was causing
both her and me. We both withdrew from college, as we faced a highly likely academic probation, I started getting into car
accidents, and multiple speeding tickets, and lost my drivers license. My Medical Doctors, who so freely wrote the "Ludes"
only 2 years before, cut me off, or switched me only to the milder Roche Valium. I quit college, and after 10 months on my
first job, I resigned, as I was already under probation, for underperforming? Why? taking Quaaludes by now every evening,
and drinking alcohol on them to enhance the effects. By year 3, I had a affair with a married girl, who left her husband to
hoped to marry me, upon a quick divorce.
By the end of year 3 using by now, 3 to 4 tablets daily, of Methaqualone in the 300mg size, I retreated, I quit my job, and
ran away, to my Carolinas hometown, without a M.D. ready and willing to write me prescriptions now of either 60 tabs with
2 refills, or 100 tablets at a time, but I started my new 3 year career of writing my own prescriptions, as the Quaalude
reputation, by 1974, and 1975, became a Schedule II, and, it began to fall in ill favor with many M.D's. From 1975 until
the next 7 years, I was on and off of them, they turned on me. No longer a Sexual Aphrodisiac, I would obtain a script,
and would consume every one of the pills non stop, with usually Boones Farm wine, and, would just pass out. I no longer
had any sex drive, or libido, and if I did try to perform, (under the influence of Quaalude) I would fail to maintain the
performance standards, of a normal, late 20's male. I often passed out, with my dates, before, we entered my bedroom,
or worse, passed out in a classy restaurant, or, well....I woke up the next morning with a very angry female, who just
wanted to be taken home, and, was given a "don't call me anymore" way of communicating. I would go for months ,,,,
abstaining from Methaqualone, only smoking weed, or just drinking beer, and had lost nearly all of my friends of both
genders.
In my final two years, age 30 to 32, I was working in mismatched, and maladaptive jobs, just to earn a paycheck, and,
of course, spent all of my cash, and ruined my once excellent credit, by purchasing powdered Cocaine. It felt so good at
first, but the side effects, of being constantly broke, and withdrawing off of a drug I absolutely could not afford, (Cocaine)
brought me to near suicide ideation, and the depts. of despair. I lost my car from not making my payments on time, lost
my job, and was totally dependent, on, my drug associates, to visit me once a week, to share their Cocaine and the
withering amount of Quaaludes that existed, by 1980, as, the reputation of Methaqualone, was bad, it was seen as a very
addictive drug, and only quack expensive M.D's would write one a script for maybe 30 Ludes. I lost my confidence in
writing my own prescriptions, due to a close call with being arrested for forgery. My family, by late 1981, placed me in a
42 day inpatinet treatement facility, with a 4 month follow up at a half way house. I began my recovery, again, out of state,
living in exile, (by choicew) to avoid my drug chronies, and, developed 28 years of alcohol, nicotine, marijuana, and the
pill addictions to the now outlawed Quaalude, and, the more tightly controlled Roche Valium.
that is my story. "Quaaludes and drinking alcohol, caused me, three (3) totaled automobile crashes, license
suspensions, twice for one year, and another two years, destroyed my Credit with Equifax, and Experian, and
caused me much self hate, from ruining many potential opposite sex relationships, as well as, a career with a
Fortune 500 Company. I recovered in flying colors, but, I was in my middle 30's, and had lost a solid ten years
of my youth, with the above mentioned drugs. It took me 9 years of psychotherapy in my 40's to get over my
shame issues, due to my experiment, with my obsession with Cocaine, alcohol, and Methaqualone!!!
d
Hammilton
Bluelighter
The TAAR thing is reasonable. It's expressed in the vesicle (which amphetamine gains access to via VMAT2). TAAR agonism causes the phosphorylation of DAT that causes it to run in reverse (presumably by causing it to take on an open channel configuration)
Rebel Maven
Bluelighter
Great post! Especially the part "Sensitization does occur, of course, but we need to be careful (always!) to remember the role that consciousness plays in the way we experience drugs."
atara
Bluelighter
In general, D2R and D3R activation decreases anxiety. It just has intolerable side-effects: psychotic symptoms and impulsive behavior respectively.
Hypnotics are bad, usually. Exercise is the best sleep drug. Eating breakfast as soon as you wake up is a pretty good thing, too. I wouldn't take anything stronger than melatonin unless I absolutely had to.
Once-a-week usage gives the mind plenty of time to recover, as long as you're taking care of yourself in the meantime. The exception might be high doses ("rolling face") of entactogens, though these are rarely paired with a healthy lifestyle. Mescaline is also used on a weekly-if-not-more basis by members of the Native American Church, to no detectable ill effect.
The thread topic seems to focus on daily usage in the context of behavior modification, a standard practice in modern psychiatry. It can have unexpected and problematic effects, but there are many who claim to have realized great improvements in their lives by these regimens, and after some years in the harm reduction community, I've had to conclude: "if it ain't broke, don't fix it!"
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ebola?
Bluelight Crew
hammy said:
Interesting shit. I wonder how we can gauge the magnitude of this effect.
ebola
Lightning-Nl
Bluelighter
Hey guys, for some reason I've started having anxiety about my meds.
I know medication, isn't going to last for ever. In fact, I dot want it to! I'd much rather be able to sleep without pills! I'd mug rather be able to get out of bed in the morning with stims! But that just isn't the truth.
While these meds work - I believe they're only going to work for a short period of time and that scares the crap out of me. I CANNOT go back to the way I was without medications! I can't do it again! I'd kill myself before I'd let that happen. But what if I don't have a choice? What if its inevitable and there's no way I can stop it?
I take two, no - three very powerful drugs everyday. Amphetamine, Temazepam, and Zolpidem. As they used to say - an upper in the morning and a downer in the evening. I can imagine that this will be sustainable until I'm out of college (which will probably be a good 10+ years from now). I just don't see how amphetamine can be sustainable for that long. But the one that worries me the most is Temazepam. I've been through benzo withdrawal before, and let me tell ya, there's not a worst kind of hell. Whenever it is I stop Temazepam, should I request to be tapered on Chlordiazepoxide? I'm not sure if and when I'm going to stop Temazepam, but due to the fact that I can already see a strong addiction forming, I'm quite worried. Long-term benzo addiction is not something I want to go through.
I've already started to take Temazepam about twice a week during the day instead of my Ativan. It just works WAY better and it's effects last much longer. Since I'm currently working in retail, and it's the holiday season, work has been so stressful. I've almost had a panic attack a couple times at work because of that. Ativan helps, but everything is still incredibly stressful. Temazepam works incredible at work. When I have bad anxiety at work, I'm incapacitated. I can't do my job and I get really agitated. I probably look high on meth to some people. On those days, if I take a Temazepam - all that goes away. Everything becomes easier, things don't bother me and I'm able to focus on just my job. But that's not what Temazepam is for. But it just works so much better!!
But the problem is, then I'm gonna start needing two, then three, then three plus some Ativan, then four plus Ativan, etc. I've been through that cycle before. It's not fun.
Anyways, I'm just curios how sustainable this can be for a very long time?
There is one thing I can say though. Amphetamines have permanently changed my motivational state. When not on amphetamine, I can actually feel a little motivation inside me. It's still not much, but it's better than I was before the Adderall was prescribed.
sekio
Bluelight Crew
You already know the answer: it's not.
In general, striving to make your changes in non-pharmacological departments of your life is probably going to work out far better in the long run. If you have anxiety it is absolutely essential you find ways to deal with it that are not benzodiazepines. (and FWIW, taking amphetamine is known to exacerbate anxiety as well...)
Is it really from the amphetamine, though, or are you simply growing and maturing as a person? Most ex-amphetamine addicts have trouble with motivation, they don't find they are *more* motivated due to their amphetamine usage!
atara
Bluelighter
I mean, so, like, my thought on this has been, after dealing with insomnia through a lot of my childhood: you'll fall asleep when you do. Insomnia doesn't need treatment until it interferes with your waking life. And, slowly, my insomnia faded. I tried melatonin and cannabis, but shied away from anything stronger. They didn't always work, but sleep isn't something that comes from a pill.
I know you don't like not sleeping. I just want to point out: it's just night-time discomfort. There are people in this world who raise three children on a minimum-wage salary, who suffer from crippling diseases, and I know this is the starving-children-in-Africa-would-eat-that-broccoli argument, but insomnia is something a human being ought to be able to handle, if it's not the end of the world. Starving children in Africa would eat that broccoli.
The thing is, controlling your mind is a skill, and calming down at the end of the day is part of that skill, and it's a part of that skill that you never really develop if you're dependent on a hypnotic for one of your basic human functions. You can't sleep without pills: figure it out. Seriously figure it out. Unless you have, like, cancer or something, it's just not that fucking big of a deal; if you get four hours of sleep a night for a couple of days you will find a way to fall asleep, believe me. I can see a case being made for someone who is on a drug that makes it impossible to sleep -- like lamotrigine -- needing to take hypnotics. For the rest of us, there's exercise and masturbation.
SwampFox56 said:
Amphetamine seems to be reliably beneficial when used responsibly. Maybe the world we live in is just plain boring; maybe the world we live in is no place for humans to be living; maybe speed fixes that.
I don't understand anxiety, honestly. My way of dealing with it was to see a psychotherapist and talk about what was bothering me, not to take drugs. But a lot of anxious people seem to be worried about nothing at all, or worried about things that are so improbable as to be hilarious: see, for example, people who get nervous about flying on planes. So I can't help you there.
But what I can say is that most non-benzodiazepine anxiolytics will work best when used alongside non-pharmaceutical coping strategies, like exercise and meditation. Buspirone just isn't alprazolam, but buspirone and Crossfit might be able to achieve what alprazolam does in a much healthier way. It's not about whether you're taking the right or wrong drugs, but whether you're trying any non-drug method of coping at all.
You can't do no work and expect change. It just isn't a productive way to live. Using pharmaceuticals doesn't always mean you're giving up and taking the easy way out, but some pharmaceuticals really are the easy way out.
Oxycodone, for instance.
However, this question would probably be better asked in TDS or MH. I have spontaneous ranting disease, but NPD isn't a very good life advice board.
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Lightning-Nl
Bluelighter
double post
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Lightning-Nl
Bluelighter
Perhaps.
However, I doubt that 90% of that maturing would have occurred, if I wasn't on Adderall. Take a look at my older sister for instance! She has nearly all the same issues I do (minus the psychotic symptoms) and she acts like she's a fucking 5 year old!! I didn't even notice until I was on Adderall, because I would do the exact same thing. Throw a fit when something was wrong, blame everyone else for my problems. Hell, I'm years ahead of her in terms of maturity and I don't believe any of that maturity would have occured if I wasn't on Adderall.
I don't understand how some who's 20 years old can only have the maturity of someone who's ten years younger than they are. It doesn't really make any sense to be honest. So in that respect - yes, my maturity it making it so I am a little more motivated to do things. However, all of that motivation goes away after I haven't taken Adderall in a couple weeks - if I wait a couple more weeks after that, I start experiencing the same immaturity that I used to display when not taking the stimulants. I have improved a lot. But behavior modulation is only half the treatment - its most definitely the more difficult of the two, but medication usually does have to be present in order to experience the highest reduction in symptoms.
Now that I say that, I believe what Adderall actually has done is; it's shown me how I 'should' be acting. So when I'm not on Adderall - I compare myself to when I am on Adderall and tell myself "This is how I should be acting - mediating my thoughts, doings things I'm supposed to, etc." So yeah, actually it was the stimulants that have provided long-term benefit for me. I wouldn't have gained the level of maturity I have without the stimulant use - in my opinion.
I've often read the "you would have matured anyways" viewpoint. I can't agree. The wider range of experience that stimulants, psychedelics and so forth bring on at least adds to the depth of the maturity. Maybe enhanced maturity is the wrong way to look at it. I know exactly what you mean in any event. The effects are unique per drug. Oddly enough DXM was a great drug that I long felt pushed me to greater levels of emotional maturity, through a sort of logical understanding of emotional needs, yet ruined my life for several years in other ways, mostly cognitive ways. That was decades past. I found stimulants and psychedelics to be useful as I grew older. But outside of DXM, my use of the other drugs was intentionally controlled and not addictive, so I was able to experience the positive effects and few negative ones.
Toz
Bluelighter
I find (low dose) NMDA antagonists and stimulants to be pretty consistent drugs if used daily. You will build tolerance to the psychedelic/euphoric effects but tolerance eventually levels out and will never eradicate the effects almost completely as seen with most other drugs.
Opiates, gabaergics and the rest just turns into addiction and a big "sigh I got to take this shit again that has no effect otherwise I'll be sick", or they simply don't work.
babylonboy
Bluelighter
Cannabis? Lots of people use cannabis all day, every day, for years. I did, for a decade, but eventually developed paradoxical effects (or at least, the disappearance of positive effects and manifestation of profoundly negative ones), but for many, cannabis is the gift that keeps on giving.
Toz
Bluelighter
Oh yea cannabis works for every day use but for me it loses it's effect and I get bored with it. If you're smoking to ease pain/anxiety then it's all good though.
babylonboy
Bluelighter
If we're looking for a drug that is not only safe and effective in prolonged use, but even stays novel and interesting, that's quite a grail, I think.
Ziiirp
Bluelighter
Awesome post, man. A lot of priceless tips you've given. Despite the hypothesis, that the world we live in is boring and that's why we need stimulants. A society, that prunes our freedom will always trigger rebellious reactions, i.e. the urge to regain complete freedom from duties. Sometimes we are too tired to fight, that is when we intoxicate ourselves to gain strength for the fight (stimulants, euphoriants) or just in order to forget about the struggle (depressants, opiates). Just my theory. If we'd be free, we would not need non-entheogenic drugs.
@ Toz
Agree, that it is better to take an NMDA-antagonist frequently, than to take benzos/opiates. But they have varying pharmacodynamic profiles. Types, that inhibit reuptake of monoamines I would not use daily. Same goes for stimulants (unless the dose is miniscule/homeopathic).
Edit : One of the few drugs I could take 24/7 without being afraid of depleting a certain storage is Green Tea.
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