Burnt Offerings
Bluelight Crew
USA! USA! USA!
I'm a fisherman. So kindly take all of your talking points about how "hard work" somehow results in having no issues w/ obtaining quality healthcare in this country and blow it out yer ass
Social Justice Universal Health Care Discussion Thread
- Thread starter JessFR
- Start date
USA! USA! USA!
I'm a fisherman. So kindly take all of your talking points about how "hard work" somehow results in having no issues w/ obtaining quality healthcare in this country and blow it out yer ass
Well I know we pay way more for are medication and trump wanted to set prices and democrats lost there mind. Pretty funny they’re all for socialism yet when he proposed set medicine cost they caught him on it like everything else
How much do you make a year as a fisherman? It’s funny i see people with $50k cars and all kinds of nice crap saying they can’t afford healthcare
How much do you make a year as a fisherman? It’s funny i see people with $50k cars and all kinds of nice crap saying they can’t afford healthcare
Xorkoth
Bluelight Crew
Wouldn't an ideal world be where everyone works hard at their profession and is able to have everything they need and live life comfortably without worrying about covering their basic necessities like food, shelter, healthcare, etc? Why does there need to be an "ahead" of everyone else? The endless quest for more and more wealth is the poison that has corrupted this country and almost everywhere else.
aemetha
Bluelighter
- Joined
- May 7, 2017
- Messages
- 199
Actually, it doesn't. At the lowest level of skilled work, GMA edges out every other measure as a predictor of work performance. At higher skilled level GMA is clearly the best predictor of work performance and at the very top level, you might as well not even look at any other measure.
I continually find this astonishing. If the increase in tax for universal healthcare is less than the cost of private health insurance, how do you see that as being an additional burden? It seems to me that many middle class American's like yourself object to the idea of paying a tax more than they object to paying for private health insurance and the actual number doesn't matter. It's an irrational argument which is why it's always accompanied by this nonsensical retort about being overburdened. It's simple mathematics. Universal health care costs less. You just pay a lower amount of extra tax than the current amount of health insurance and are less burdened at the end of the day.
Because human nature is to take the easy route, I do a lot of crap I don’t want to because I’m rewarded. Take those rewards away and I’m not doing it. A trash man and a doctor shouldn’t have the same luxuries, if they did we’d have no doctors. It’s not like everyone is locked into a class, if the trash man wanted that life bad enough he would have did what it took to be a doctor. Are governments proven to be extremely inefficient so the less they’re involved the better.
Last edited by a moderator:
aemetha
Bluelighter
- Joined
- May 7, 2017
- Messages
- 199
So, you think more people would prefer to be trash collectors than doctors???? Well, I suppose this is a drugs-forum.
I think you missed the point and there's not a whole lot of point in debating you any further. You have a penchant for attacking the person rather than the argument, probably because you don't understand the argument. You say you value hard work, well so do I. To me, hard work extends to going out and doing the research necessary to understand a subject before attempting to debate it.
Burnt Offerings
Bluelight Crew
Trump the 2016 candidate advocated for the US government being able to negotiate with prescription drug companies regarding costs of Rx drugs covered by Medicare, a reform which actually would've made a difference. However, once he got into office he didn't pursue this anymore, as the Republican-controlled Congress (from 2016-2018 ) didn't want any part of it. Since then, he basically did nothing to substantially improve the healthcare system.
And it's funny that the Democrats are routinely accused of offering "socialist" solutions to the problem considering the fact that the most powerful Democratic politician, Joe Biden, has been a prostitute for the pharma/health insurance complex his entire life, and his "healthcare reforms" since becoming president basically amount to a massive private-public partnership with the health industry through COBRA subsidies and funneling patients into the ACA marketplace. If "socialism" is defined by the US government shoveling piles and piles of money towards wealthy individuals and multinational corporations, I've got bad news for you, we've lived in a "socialist country" for decades now.
One Sentence in Biden Stimulus Plan Reveals His Health Care Approach (Published 2021)
An increase in subsidies could drive millions to enroll in Obamacare marketplaces, experts say.
It varies depending on the season. Also, I feel that talking about how much money one makes is generally in poor taste, but that has more to do with the culture I was raised in I guess. I have managed to accumulate over 50k in savings, though, and paid my way through college entirely, graduating with 0 debt, so I'm in a better position than many working people. I come from a middle-class background and my family & myself have struggled frequently against this completely moronic healthcare system we have in this country, so I reject out-of-hand the notion that the only people who have problems with the system are "moochers" or however you choose to characterize them.
Without public sanitation workers organized society would collapse. (Not that it even matters, as having your basic healthcare needs attended to isn't a "luxury" and shouldn't be attached to someone's arbitrary notion of how "valuable" a person is economically.)
Honestly I’m just having a little fun with it, I was going back and forth here awhile back and everyone just keeps repeating the same points and has there mind made up. No ones trying to learn or be open minded they’re just saying the same thing over and over again
There will never be a shortage of sanitation workers considering you can train someone to do it in a week. Not saying they shouldn’t be paid because it is hard work. To have a decent paying job you either have to have a lot of school, or it’s dangerous or work most people aren’t willing to do. Zero skill jobs that everyones willing to do shouldn’t be making as much as someone doing a hard job though, seems like the most fair system to me. People willing to do more get more, people content doing the bare minimum get the bare minimum. Without that incentive we’ll have a country full of freeloaders. I know I’m not doing my job if I could make just as much at starbucks
Btw there’s plenty of zero skill jobs that offer benifits so really have a hard time having sympathy for people that don’t have it
There will never be a shortage of sanitation workers considering you can train someone to do it in a week. Not saying they shouldn’t be paid because it is hard work. To have a decent paying job you either have to have a lot of school, or it’s dangerous or work most people aren’t willing to do. Zero skill jobs that everyones willing to do shouldn’t be making as much as someone doing a hard job though, seems like the most fair system to me. People willing to do more get more, people content doing the bare minimum get the bare minimum. Without that incentive we’ll have a country full of freeloaders. I know I’m not doing my job if I could make just as much at starbucks
Btw there’s plenty of zero skill jobs that offer benifits so really have a hard time having sympathy for people that don’t have it
Burnt Offerings
Bluelight Crew
Again, you're conflating having someone's basic healthcare needs attended to as somehow being a "reward" or a "luxury". It's not, or at least it shouldn't be.
Even if we have universal healthcare it’s still not free, they’re just taking more of our money to pay for it. I workout 5 days a week and don’t smoke cigarettes, doesn’t seem fair I’ll be footing the bill for someone eating Big Macs all day and chain smoking cigarettes. Also name one thing are government does well, every time I’m at the dmv I’m reminded why the government shouldn’t be in charge of anything
As I said I’m fine with it as long as they don’t raise are taxes anymore but that’s not going to happen and I’m sick of seeing them waste our money.
As I said I’m fine with it as long as they don’t raise are taxes anymore but that’s not going to happen and I’m sick of seeing them waste our money.
Xorkoth
Bluelight Crew
How much do you pay for health care? I pay $140 a month and I have my work pay for 80% of it. $140 a month is $1,680 a year, which is about 3% of my take-home pay. Of course, many people pay much more than this, and many people make a lot less than I do. So currently, health care costs taxpayers anywhere from, say, 2% to who knows the upper bound, 20%? 30%? of their income. How is this different from paying a little bit more in taxes? You wouldn't have the separate health care costs anymore, so most people would be paying the same or less.
I get that for people making a lot more money than everyone else, that would amount to paying more than they do now. But people who make a lot more than everyone else can afford to pay more without sacrificing any of their quality of life at all. Raising the tax rate by, say, 3%, isn't going to hurt anyone much. it would hurt the lowest wage earners the most, but if it gave them health care, it would be a net gain. I fail to see how such a system would be a bad thing for society.
I get that for people making a lot more money than everyone else, that would amount to paying more than they do now. But people who make a lot more than everyone else can afford to pay more without sacrificing any of their quality of life at all. Raising the tax rate by, say, 3%, isn't going to hurt anyone much. it would hurt the lowest wage earners the most, but if it gave them health care, it would be a net gain. I fail to see how such a system would be a bad thing for society.
Burnt Offerings
Bluelight Crew
The government must do something right, as the incursions into the healthcare field that they've already made are among the most popular federal programs in the United States.
Medicare, Medicaid popularity high: Kaiser
Most people want Medicare and Medicaid to keep their current structure, even as they worry Medicare will face financial issues in the future.
Yes, "someone still pays for it". I haven't seen anyone argue that it would somehow be free. The question is, what is the most effective way to pay for it? In other words, what have the geniuses in all these other developed nations done which have led to lower costs and better health outcomes for their citizens?
U.S. Health Care from a Global Perspective, 2019: Higher Spending, Worse Outcomes?
Americans are living shorter, unhealthier lives. Yet, the United States outspends other wealthy nations when it comes to health care, according to a new Commonwealth Fund report. This analysis compares the U.S. to 10 other high-income nations on spending, outcomes, risk factors, and quality.
The whole argument that rich people can keep footing the bill because they got the money is where u lose me. I know everyone like to hate on the rich but they’re already contributing a lot. I made 230k last year because I worked a ton of overtime. I don’t consider that rich and I’m already paying way to much. It’s infuriating seeing how much of my money I have to give away every year. If I worked zero overtime I’d make 93k so I’m only making that much because I’m willing to work a lot of hours and honestly it’s already at the point I don’t really think it’s worth it because of taxes which is wrong
Jabberwocky
Frumious Bandersnatch
I worked hard and earned enough to retire in my 40s and devote the rest of life to travedl, drugs and hobbies. No-one begrudges doctors making a ‘good’ living but some begrudge them making an excessive living through restrictive work practices. For example each professional speciality is responsible for approving new applicants to enter that speciality. So they restrict supply meaning you wait a lot longer than is necessary and pay a lot more because the market in doctors is corrupted.
Whoever said anything about grocery bagging guys? Anyways we bag our own groceries here because we lack an underclass to do it for us.
Xorkoth
Bluelight Crew
I don't hate on the rich, I just think the rich should contribute more to the society that allowed them to get rich. To have a successful civilization, everyone has to contribute to the whole so we can have things like roads, public water systems, and a million other things, and I think health care should be part of that like it is almost everywhere else. I don't begrudge anyone working hard and becoming wealthy. Also I don't consider your income level rich either, when I say "rich" I mean the people who have more money than anyone could ever use. I begrudge people who keep accumulating more and more and more and do so at the expense of other people. I begrudge the ultra-wealthy and corporations who manage to avoid paying anywhere near their share of taxes.
The most successful period of time in US history was post World War 2. The tax bracket for the ultra wealthy was up to 90% for a while (I don't think it should be anywhere near that high, just saying). That money went to building the middle class and creating most of the infrastructure we have that is crumbling today.
I probably make more money than most people in this forum (not you though), but I'd be happy to have a tax increase if it meant everyone was able to get regular health care and not go into crippling debt if they have to go to the ER. And in fact I would probably be paying less since I wouldn't have to buy health insurance, but even if I had to pay more, it would be worth it for me for everyone to be healthier and not afraid to go to see a doctor. The lack of health care causes millions of people to avoid any sort of preventative medicine (as does the whole for-profit medical/pharmaceutical system, which makes more money when people are sick long-term and need medication, it's why our mental health system just puts drug band-aids on, too, instead of addressing the problems in ways that actually make people get better).
No one was paying 90%, I watched a breakdown of that on YouTube and they were lying at most 40% they put in a bunch of incentives that if they didn’t do they’d have to pay 90%. I keep hearing people repeat it and after finding out it’s not true they just go on to another excuse. That’s why these arguments are pointless, people have there mind made up and even when the facts change very rarely does there opinion. All the data we have proves that the rich are already paying for everything pretty much. The top 50% of taxpayers pay 97% percent of our taxes. That means 50% of our population is only paying 3% which is a pretty sweet deal. The top 1% pays more then the bottom 90% combined. How in the world are they not paying there share? I’ve mentioned it before in this thread that I worked at Lowe’s after the military and no one there wanted to work full time since they’d lose there free healthcare and other benifits. There’s an insane amount of people in this country that contribute nothing or straight up live of the government. I’m far from rich and I already pay way to much. it’s sad that I don’t work as much as I can because of taxes. This country brings in an insane amount of money are government just wastes it and gives it to perfectly capable people that would rather live off handouts. Seems to me the bottom 50% is where the problem is, this countries become soft and people feel entitled to everything. You can join the military in amarica and make a better living then 70% of the world. That’s an option available to everyone. It’s funny how immigrants come here with a fraction of the opportunities we’re born with and kill it. We need to stop incentivizing laziness and start pushing people to be better. JFK said “it’s not what your country can do for you but what you can do for your country” man imagine if a democrat said that today lol
guess u have more faith in people. If it’s completely free I see people just abusing it for drugs, seeking disability or straight boredom. Just seems like something as important as healthcare people should be willing to spend money. I think we need to make it way more affordable and fix a lot of stuff but if someone’s not willing to pay for a visit to the doctor then they probably don’t need to go. If There was no opportunities in this country or we reached a point in civilization where we just didn’t need the workers that would be one thing but that’s not the case. There’s cleaning ladies on my job site making $15 an hour that don’t even speak English. I live right outside dc so there’s a bunch of Americans that could be doing that work but that’s not happening
Just want to highlight that fact. 50% of taxpayers are paying 97% of are taxes. Do you truly believe they’re not paying there fair share? 50% of this country only pays 3%...
guess u have more faith in people. If it’s completely free I see people just abusing it for drugs, seeking disability or straight boredom. Just seems like something as important as healthcare people should be willing to spend money. I think we need to make it way more affordable and fix a lot of stuff but if someone’s not willing to pay for a visit to the doctor then they probably don’t need to go. If There was no opportunities in this country or we reached a point in civilization where we just didn’t need the workers that would be one thing but that’s not the case. There’s cleaning ladies on my job site making $15 an hour that don’t even speak English. I live right outside dc so there’s a bunch of Americans that could be doing that work but that’s not happening
Just want to highlight that fact. 50% of taxpayers are paying 97% of are taxes. Do you truly believe they’re not paying there fair share? 50% of this country only pays 3%...
Last edited:
Xorkoth
Bluelight Crew
If that's true (it's hard to know what is true these days because everyone has an agenda, even information sources you find online, Youtube videos most of all), it's because 50% of people are making so little money that they're exempt from almost all of their taxes. It's hard to believe 50% pay no tax though, if you have a wage job you have money taken out automatically unless you choose not to, but then you get hit with it in tax season. A lot of people get tax refunds but that doesn't mean they pay no taxes, it just means they pay less than what they've paid cumulatively throughout the year so they get some back. If you make under $12,250, you are under the standard deduction so would pay no taxes, but you also can't afford to pay your living expenses for a year, which is the reason why the standard deduction exists.
I agree with you that there are people abusing the system. But I think you're overblowing the numbers in your head about how many people are purposely abusing the system. There are millions and millions of people who work full time and make minimum wage or even more than minimum wage and make so little money that they don't have to pay taxes (between standard deduction and other deductions), and still can't afford a basic living without government assistance. Is that their fault, or is it the system's fault? We either need to pay everyone enough to afford health care and rent and food and everything else people need to survive if you work full time, regardless of their jobs, or we need health care for everyone paid for my our taxes. Right now it's not fair to the millions of people who do work full time and do their part and aren't trying to cheat the system.
I agree you never know about statistics but from my personal experience every single person I’ve seen not able to support themselves is because of the bad decisions they continue to make or by choice. So to answer your question it is there fault. I have never seen a hard working person not be successful in this country. I know at my job we have immigrants that barely speak English making way more then minimum wage because we can’t find amaricans willing to show up every day. Again at Lowe’s every single one of them could have went full time and had benifits and eventually got manager position but out of pure laziness they didn’t. They would pay nothing in taxes and claim all there friends kids as dependents to cheat the system and get back like 30k in taxes while they contribute nothing. There was a young white girl in her early 20’s running a department and people that had been there for way longer in there 30’s would comment on how bad that job sucked and no way they’d do it. Funny part is they worked half as hard and with all the crap they got probably made more. That girl will inevitably become that top 50% and she definitely earned it. Honestly I just think it’s people being selfish screaming for more taxes since it won’t effect them. 30% is way to much for taxes and 50% is criminal. No way they’d feel that way if it effected them.
Xorkoth
Bluelight Crew
Again, you work a trade, which is great, but the fact is we have millions and millions of minimum wage jobs that need people to work them so you can't penalize the people that work them and just tell them all to get better jobs. And no, not everyone at Lowes can work their way up to management, because then who would work non-management? Also a lot of companies will only give people less than full time hours so they don't have to pay as many benefits.
And if people declare their friends' kids as dependents, then who do their friends claim? I find it very hard to believe this happens very much at all. Why would someone let someone else claim their kids as dependents?
We already have among the lowest tax rates in the developed world. I completely agree that the federal government spends our taxes very badly, though. We could do a lot more with what we already pay in taxes. But without taxes, how would you expect to pay for infrastructure, defense (I mean we spend way too much on the military industrial complex, WAY too much, but every country needs a military and that costs money), and everything else necessary for a working civilization?
Many of the countries with the highest taxes report the highest levels of happiness on average, and many of them also have the most wealth per capita, as well. Particularly, look at Scandinavian countries. They pay a ton of taxes, but their countries are very nice, have low crime, very little poverty and unemployment (Norway's 2019 unemployment rate was 3.35%), and... universal health care. The rest of the world looks at us and thinks we're crazy.
I find this hard to believe, but just because you don't see it, doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Do you dispute the fact that 40 hours a week at $7.25 per hour is not enough money to survive? That is only $15,080 a year, before taxes. Which is well below the poverty line for 2 or more person households (but not below the standard deduction so those people do still pay taxes if they don't have kids and only have one person working, for example all of the single moms, although not very much). It is even $800 below the poverty line for just supporting yourself (1 person households). There are even some important and skilled jobs where people make minimum wage or less (less because the actual hours they work are much higher than the hours they get paid for), like home care workers.
Last edited: