Social Justice Universal Health Care Discussion Thread

[bmf666]

Young people and college kids will fill those jobs ore people that don’t give a shit. Not every job need to be able to support a family. Bottom line is I’m not rich and I pay way to much and according to ever statistic I can find the bs argument that the rich isn’t paying there share is false. I was in the military then worked a trade, those routes are available to anyone so again zero sympathy. I know if I ever have to pay more then 50% in taxes I’m fucking leaving this country and I bet a lot will follow. We can do this for hours and neither of us will think any different we’ll just start repeating crap so good day

So people Witt the highest taxes are the happiest lol, there is a 100% chance that whoever made that statistic had a motive lol. I know my major problem with this country is higher taxes and watching our government mismanage and I’ll bet I’m not alone. A lot of the crap you preach is what California does and all I hear about is people fleeing that place. I lived there for 4 years and no idea where all that extra tax money went.

 

[Xorkoth]

All due respect you’re out there man. So people Witt the highest taxes are the happiest lol, there is a 100% chance that whoever made that statistic had a motive lol. I know my major problem with this country is higher taxes and watching our government mismanage and I’ll bet I’m not alone. A lot of the crap you preach is what California does and all I hear about is people fleeing that place. I lived there for 4 years and no idea where all that extra tax money went.

If I'm out there then so is the majority of the rest of the world. Happiness is about a whole lot more than just raw amount of money you take home. Talk to a Norwegian person and see what they have to say about it. Anyway you're right, there's no point to this conversation, so good day to you as well.

 

[Burnt Offerings]

That’s why these arguments are pointless, people have there mind made up and even when the facts change very rarely does there opinion.

First thing you've said that I agree with

Xorkoth, if he wants to live in la la land and sooth himself with the "knowledge" that half this country are just a bunch of worthless whiny layabouts, just let him. It's obvious that nothing resembling an objective fact will put a dent in that comforting narrative that he's surrounded himself with

Those garshdarn poor people who aren't chipping in their fair share! If this country had a lick of sense we'd send some goons to shack 'em down for the spare change in between their couch cushions, the slackers!

 

[bmf666]

Pretty sure I did put some facts out there they just didn’t fit your agenda so you dismiss it lol

So does the 50% of this country that does contribute just need to pay the other 3% so you people shut up or is living in a first world country for free not good enough still? Honestly the fact that so many of you think the same does make sense. Addiction is an extremely selfish disease that I once suffered from also. Anyone that sees the damage that it does to the people around them and continues to do it is a selfish person. My company pays people that can’t even speak English over $15 an hour because they can’t find amaricans to do the work, so the jobs are there you people just don’t want to do it. Anyone that’s at a minimum wage job for longer then a year obviously doesn’t care

Oh and to answer an earlier question about why they’re claiming each others kids it’s because they’ve already maxed out on there’s from what I gathered. They would sit in the lunchroom and and brag about how they where cheating the system. They where raised on benifits and knew how to abuse the system which is why we need to incentivize people trying

 

[Burnt Offerings]

This thread is about the healthcare system. It's about a system that everyone, rich, poor, and everyone in between, will access at some point in their lives.

That's what we're talking about here.

So, yes, it does make sense that the handful of individuals in this country who control close to 50 percent of the total wealth would pay the lionshare of taxes towards the maintenance of that system. Why should the poor pay for it? HOW could they pay for it? Like I said, are they supposed to chip in their spare change or sell some of their worthless belongings?

And again, you keep bringing up the red herring that somehow people want something "for free". Poor people don't get much "for free", in fact it's, paradoxically, quite expensive to be poor. I know that you value people's personal experiences, as you've brought your own up constantly in this thread, so perhaps some anecdotal experiences from other people will illustrate this fact

What do people mean when they say “Being poor is expensive”?

Answer (1 of 19): An example: recently divorced, paying child support and working two jobs to keep things going, I was basically paying rent in two places. I couldn’t afford the $209 to renew my van’s registration. There’s a grace period of a month or two in California, and after that I drove ve...

www.quora.com

 

[electronDegenerate]

Goddammit I really wish I didn't just find myself in this thread....

No offense to you @bmf666 , I don't fully disagree with everything you have said...
but you sound a lot like everyone I work with and it is getting me a little worked up on a Sunday!
I may come back and write a better reply but I have this to say.
There is no altruism in our financial governance system. Capitalism without altruism is its own kind of slavery.
I work my ass off and that has not stopped the struggle. I still get fucked over by the health care system.
The system doesn't give a fuck about my health. Health insurance guarantees that the health care system
mathematically takes as much as it can from the people. And it drives me crazy that the government takes
our money, misappropriates it, spends it on shit the people don't agree with, and leave us to rot, enslaved this
archaic system. My own grandpa has worked a trade for 30 years and will need to keep working until he is
dead because he has to keep supporting my grandma who isn't able to work anymore and has health
problems. Fuck what he wanted to do with his life. Medicare is a fucking joke.

I have been screwed by health insurance companies multiple times. I recently went and saw a financial advisor
He had to take an emergency call during our meeting, because HE was getting screwed by his health insurance.
I feel like a lot of these pure capitalists cannot even fathom the struggles people have to go through in life.
Half the people I work with call anyone on any sort of welfare a freeloader.
My problem with that besides the total lack of caring about the wellbeing of anyone, is that Capitalism's most
basic tenant is supply and demand and from what I have witnessed in life Capitalism in no way requires
or cares that even half the people in our country are able to work at all. There isn't just a job for everyone,
and a lot of people will never escape their shitty lives enough to be able to find a job that actually supports them.

You would still end up with upper percentile elites and then just a shit load of people who's ability to work doesn't
matter for shit.

 

[bmf666]

Guess it’s all perspective because reading those anecdotes it’s all pretty ridiculous. So poor people get worse deals on payday loans? Kinda makes sense considering they have bad credit history and have proven to be high risk. Or should creditors give everyone the same high rate to offset the money they’re going to lose on people that shouldn’t be getting loans in the first place? Then they cry about stuff being more expensive because people in that community steal..? I’ve been to the ghetto and from my experience craps normally cheaper so again this is just liberal nutjobs making crap up because a bunch of other entitled people keep spreading this misinformation. Then they cry about poor people having to get cheaper clothes... seriously is this for real? I shop at kohl’s and I make over 100k a year. That might be the most rediculous crap I’ve read

@Electron amarica has provided a good living for a lot of people... I’ve been to over 40 countries on the military and we have it better then most of the world. You people like to pick or choose 1 or 2 things other people have better but we have it pretty good. Also it’s not hard to leave this country and there’s plenty of people trying to come here

 

[electronDegenerate]

You people like to pick or choose 1 or 2 things other people have better but we have it pretty good

You people? lol
I'm not sure what kind of person you think I am. I promise I am not as liberal as you think I am.
I don't agree with our labeling of liberals and conservatives because it is designed to divide us.

But this was a debate about universal health care.

If your problem is entitlement I ask this, shouldn't we be entitled to health care without it running our lives?
You seem to throw my anecdotes out all together without considering that this country is completely full of
people with similar anecdotes asking the question, why does it have to be like this?

 

[bmf666]

And bro that whole there isn’t a good job for everyone in this country just isn’t true. There’s plenty of opportunities out there and plenty of statistics that prove as long as you don’t get a felony, finish school and don’t have kids out of wedlock you will be successful. Again the military is an option for everyone and that alone would put you above 60% of the world. You might not want to do it b it that’s the problem with this country people just don’t want to do shit

I meant you people in this thread, I’m grouping you all together because it seems like you all kinda have the same point of view. And also I was saying liberal nutjobs referring to that guy that shared that rediculous article because that’s so far from reality it’s insane

The trades are desperate for people also and a guy argued earlier everyone can’t work a trade. Who gives a shit that’s not even close to being a problem right now, the fact is they need people in the trades and they’re not hard to get into. There’s so many countries where no matter what you do you’re screwed yet here it might be a slight inconvenience but you can be self sufficient

 

[Gormur]

We're already paying an outrageous amount of taxes. But because of so called small government conservatives like yourself, the working class pays most of our taxes while the wealthy get tax cuts and the government wastes money on broken planes. And we get jack shit back for our money.

You might say you're small government but I've found that most conservatives are perfectly fine with government as long as it's used to give rich people money and blow up brown kids in other countries.

Agreed. One gets penalized for paying US taxes rather than rewarded. I'm aware that's not what you expressed but you've got to admit, it isn't far from the truth

@bmf666 I'm 37 and I qualified for disability at 28 for dyslexia. I'm not good with numbers but I also have dyspraxia (spatial learning problem) which makes it hard for me to have a normal job that requires following directions. Although I did have a manual labor job at a market and I've done construction work, it's not something I'm capable of doing everyday. Luckily I'm a musician and can make money that way. I'd need a manager to do anything full time though as I'm just terrible at planning things. Hope that helps

 

[electronDegenerate]

I can't disagree with some of your points.
The thing about there not being a job for everyone, well it is debatable for sure. It could be different in different areas,
but I have lived in places where even the tradespeople have a hard time of it.

This still leaves us in a system where we are clamoring over each other for jobs so we can pay for healthcare for the rest of our lives.
And the american dream? Doesn't exist for most people who will never stop struggling.
I work a trade right now. I'm 10 years in and I have to say what I have personally experienced has completely soured me.
I'm worried I won't ever gain a healthy appreciation for work back. I look back on my life and wonder exactly when was
I supposed to be able to go follow my dreams and succeed? I missed it because I fell deep into debt trying to keep my family
afloat during hard times and I have been working the last 5 years just get back to zero. Now i'm in my 30s and to be honest
I struggle with this feeling like I fully missed the boat on doing anything I wanted to do with my life.

This is where the lack of altruism comes in. As long as you are paying taxes it doesn't matter at all if you are struggling.
Your life has a value limit on it. If you stop being productive, well you are basically the scourge of society.
Lots of people who aren't just able bodied white middle class males have personal experience getting fucked with by the system.
With health care is it really so bad to aspire for a system where you don't have to work like a fuckin slave to be healthy?

Honestly I think the whole reason we demonize communism so much these days has fully to do with brainwashing us against
anything the government could possibly do for the good of the people.
It doesn't matter that NO ONE IS OR HAS EVER BEEN TALKING ABOUT COMMUNISM in this country so why does it always come
up. It is to make people afraid to change the system of money making and slavery.

I'm not anticapitalist though. I actually think that the freedoms capitalism implies didn't even need a name. It should just be inherent.
And now the word "capitalism" is similarly used to get people worked up into a froth. Oh no we can't make sure people get affordable
health care because that's how the complete stripping away of American freedoms and liberty starts...
All any of us are are consumers and if we stop being anything but that we are a problem for the government.

Unrelated to health care, I was recently pretty mad that the banking system scalps billions of dollars from poor people as all their myriad
fees. Those fees are designed to harvest the wealth specifically from people who are obviously financially struggling. Well, thats capitalism.....

 

[Deru]

Most people in the trades don't make $230k/year, even with overtime and bonuses that seems insanely high. Unless one wants to work 12 hours per day, 7 days a week...maybe $150-$175k/year... but at that rate, what's even the point anymore? Plus, that doesn't even factor in the toll it takes on your body to work those hours doing physical labor.

 

[Burnt Offerings]

lol I love how skeptical you are at the state managing to accomplish anything bmf, then in the same breath you praise the military and the socioeconomic opportunities one gets through military service. Hows that VA bureaucracy treating you? Pretty good?

You love the giant, well-funded bureaucracy that put you on the path to success (the US military), just not any kind of bureaucracy which would help, y'know, the "undeserving". Got it. Also, all of your success has to do with your own "hard work" and has nothing to do with the structural aspects of the economy which YOU benefited from...while with all these other cretins (who apparently got a felony, had kids out of wedlock and dropped out of school didn't...except for the fact that the amount of Americans experiencing economic insecurity or who are under-insured/uninsured far exceed those categories) it's just the opposite, they've done nothing BUT benefit from structural aspects of the economy and welfare state while contributing NO hard work! Honestly the amount of assumptions you make about wide swaths of the popuation and the sheer myopia you have on this topic are astounding.

You keep bringing up this lame talking point of how many countries you've been to through benefiting from the giant tax-payer funded socialist program called the US military, well guess what, I've been to over 80 countries on my fucking magic carpet, and I'm here to tell you that 'murika SUCKS. See how talk is cheap? This thread is about the United States healthcare system, not about how 'murika has been drug down by the libruhls or socialist degenerates or needy poor people who whoever is screwing this country up in your mind...if you have evidence to support your claim that America is far away the best country in the world among the dozens of comparably-developed industrial nations, when it comes to the healthcare system, then back your shit up

 

[electronDegenerate]

Most people in the trades don't make $230k/year, even with overtime and bonuses that seems insanely high. Unless one wants to work 12 hours per day, 7 days a week...maybe $150-$175k/year... but at that rate, what's even the point anymore? Plus, that doesn't even factor in the toll it takes on you it body to work those hours doing physical labor.

Yup thats exactly me. I managed to make just over 100K last year. I have to work seven 12s, travel all summer, my vehicle broke down and I haven't fixed it yet, I live with my girlfriend's dad, and I am in a 5+ year struggle to get my finances under control. Meanwhile the sense that my life is stagnating is becoming very strong.
My girlfriend doesn't see me half the year, and much of our time together is ruined by my anxieties and highly self critical nature.
She is the one following her dreams. Her business flat failed during this pandemic and I was left again fully supporting us. She also can't afford health care
which sucks because she has some stomach issues flaring up that she is trying to self diagnose because going to a doctor is out of the question.

 

[bmf666]

@Burnt the military is a socialist program? Then you people should be all over it. I would say it’s a job that has benifits since you’re earning what you get and people that work harder end up advancing.

 

[Zephyn]

I worked hard and earned enough to retire in my 40s and devote the rest of life to travedl, drugs and hobbies. No-one begrudges doctors making a ‘good’ living but some begrudge them making an excessive living through restrictive work practices. For example each professional speciality is responsible for approving new applicants to enter that speciality. So they restrict supply meaning you wait a lot longer than is necessary and pay a lot more because the market in doctors is corrupted.

Whoever said anything about grocery bagging guys? Anyways we bag our own groceries here because we lack an underclass to do it for us.

I could have done that if I didn't fuck up so bad over and over. Maybe I still have a chance. If you don't mind me asking your industry?

 

[Jabberwocky]

i can see this thread went way off topic...

as a brit, i have a close relation with a chronic illness determined by genetics, that requires medication several times a day + many doctors appointments. i also have two close relations who have had illnesses (also not lifestyle related, one definitely determined by genetics the other probably) that are potentially deadly if left untreated and require complex treatment and in one case a longish hospital stay. both are now fine and able to continue their jobs and lives as before.

thanks to the NHS, this has not caused us any financial hardship and thus the emotional burden of these health problems is vastly lowered. to pay for this, our tax rates are not significantly different to income taxes in the US- if i were an american citizen i'd be fucking angry that other countries take a similar amount of my income but provide me with so many more benefits.

in the american system, am i not correct in thinking, given no one in my family has ever had a high paying job, that these issues would have reduced us to abject poverty?

we are middle class, not poor, but from what i have seen regarding the costs of healthcare in the US, we would be under the poverty line in that system.

how can anybody justify a 'healthcare' system that means one period of illness can turn you from well off to struggling, and a chronic illness is a lifelong sentence? it just takes people who are able to contribute meaningfully out of society and puts them into the position of needing welfare and still being fucking ill.

 

[bmf666]

What trade are you in? I saw a study that the government did that showed trades with high non native workers paying way less then ones without them. It’s crazy the same party that cries about higher wages won’t do what it takes to get them. If we cut of the endless supply of workers people in the trades would make more money overnight. I’m with local 26 in dc

lol I love how skeptical you are at the state managing to accomplish anything bmf, then in the same breath you praise the military and the socioeconomic opportunities one gets through military service. Hows that VA bureaucracy treating you? Pretty good?

You love the giant, well-funded bureaucracy that put you on the path to success (the US military), just not any kind of bureaucracy which would help, y'know, the "undeserving". Got it. Also, all of your success has to do with your own "hard work" and has nothing to do with the structural aspects of the economy which YOU benefited from...while with all these other cretins (who apparently got a felony, had kids out of wedlock and dropped out of school didn't...except for the fact that the amount of Americans experiencing economic insecurity or who are under-insured/uninsured far exceed those categories) it's just the opposite, they've done nothing BUT benefit from structural aspects of the economy and welfare state while contributing NO hard work! Honestly the amount of assumptions you make about wide swaths of the popuation and the sheer myopia you have on this topic are astounding.

You keep bringing up this lame talking point of how many countries you've been to through benefiting from the giant tax-payer funded socialist program called the US military, well guess what, I've been to over 80 countries on my fucking magic carpet, and I'm here to tell you that 'murika SUCKS. See how talk is cheap? This thread is about the United States healthcare system, not about how 'murika has been drug down by the libruhls or socialist degenerates or needy poor people who whoever is screwing this country up in your mind...if you have evidence to support your claim that America is far away the best country in the world among the dozens of comparably-developed industrial nations, when it comes to the healthcare system, then back your shit up motherfucker

You mean the benifit I earned by being in the military lol. If the military is such a socialist dream why didn’t you join, it’s a rhetorical question I know you don’t want to work for something. There’s plenty of jobs with benifits just like the military but I guess earning something is a rediculous concept. Your little sjw moderators keep deleting my crap so keep going

@Burnt with capitalism you get what your worth, stop blaming everyone else because your worthless. Life will never be fair for everyone. Why help people that won’t help themselves at the expense of people that due?

 

[electronDegenerate]

And this is what really bothers me.
Generically reducing people to worthless freeloaders while repeatedly just ignoring the views (and struggles) of anyone who doesn't fall in line.
Hearing this stuff always soils my view of humanity.

 

[bmf666]

And this is what really bothers me.
Generically reducing people to worthless freeloaders while repeatedly just ignoring the views (and struggles) of anyone who doesn't fall in line.
Hearing this stuff always soils my view of humanity.

Hey if it don’t apply to you then don’t take it personal, sounds like you work pretty hard. I bet if you where able to keep more of you money you’d be a lot better off. People here think everyone that’s worked hard to live comfortably needs to be punished so that people that didn’t don’t need to feel the consequences. Social security is mismanaged to hell and same with Medicare yet when the government takes more of our money they’re going to magically get it right and everything will be awesome