unhealthy vegan/veggie lifestyle?

[ebola?]

Here we go again! 8(

It kinda strikes me that many ppl out there are focussed on eating strickly vegetarian or vegan meals without taking in consideration the fact wheter this food is originated by organic (or socalled biological) farming methods. I don't understand what's healthy or beneficial about eating vegetables that have been treated with all kinds of pesticides. It might hurt your stomach when you realize you are in fact sponsering dirty transnational companies who are making alot of cash by selling GMO seeds, fertilizers and pesticides. ;-)

Personally I prefer an organic piece of meat above a vegan dish consisting of GMO vegatables that have been intensively sprayed. Also IMO the former appears to be less harmfull to the environment, as sustainability is the main objective of organic farming. Thoughts, anyone?

1. I don't think that going lacto-ovo vegetarian or vegan (hence-forth known under the superordinate category, "vegetarian") solely for health reasons makes a great deal of sense. Ethical concerns tie in most directly to vegetarian practice, and then environmental and health benefits relate less directly.

The most healthy diet possible would include fish.

2. Most vegetarians who I've met (including me) eat a great deal more healthily than your average person. I believe this to be primarily an effect of vegetarianism forcing one to pay active attention to what he/she's eating.

Man evolved, homo erectus was one of the first to eat meat, the one's before him were herbivores(or quite close to the definition of herbivore as they probably ate fish...).
Going vegeterian is reversing the trend of human evolution if you ask me.

You confuse descriptive science (that which gave us the 'food chain'), which uncovers mechanisms of how things came to be, with effective prescription for optimizing the efficacy of personal behavioral management, which tells us how to act to best attain our goals. If we were to consciously select for eating meat, would it improve our personal lives (besides just hedonistically, assuming that you're not body-building) or the evolutionary fitness of future generations? How? Would it do so because of mechanisms of natural selection?

Most vegetarians are carbohydrate addicts killing themselves slowly with insulin resistance and metabolic disorder.

Really? Most who I've encountered stick to complex carbohydrates, lean proteins, and ample fruits and veggies, not coca-cola and fries.

unless you happen to be living in a far-northern climate. (successful) evolution is about adapting to an environment, really.

Even here, there has been insufficient time in human history to differentially evolve to select for different diets, for the most part. Exceptions include tiny tweaks, like lactose tolerance. Really, we evolved to have the ability to sustain ourselves healthily a bit past reproductive age on a variety of diets. Does this tell us anything about how we SHOULD eat to live healthily into old age?

nutritional flakes have B12

Not reliably or particularly bioavailably. Most vegan must take b-12 supplements, and all should.

I see Balarki talks about non breathing, non-sentient creatures but surely just because an organism does not scream that it is still not aware. Plants respond to pest attacks and will grow and move in response to it's environment. Surely a tree who is alive for 50yrs has some sort of "emotional" interaction with its surrounds, even though it doesn't have a humanoid like central nervous system. What about bacteria? Do Protozoa become safe as soon as they are multicellular? Or a worm whose nervous system is extremely primitive? Is there a safe size? Which creature will be the next to evolve and suddenly become vegan safe?

I draw the line at where I think that consciousness (defined widely) is likely to emerge. My best guess is that some sort of neural centralization is necessary. I consider cnidarian ethically sound to eat. Too bad jellyfishe's taste and texture are horrid. I don't believe that there are any edible sponges. I am a bit torn on whether echinoderms or bivalves are okay. I don't like sea urchin roe or oysters either though.

Plants, protozoa, and bacteria? I find it unlikely that they 'experience', although they clearly respond to their environments.

ebola

 

[Coolio]

Really? Most who I've encountered stick to complex carbohydrates, lean proteins, and ample fruits and veggies, not coca-cola and fries.

I've met few vegetarians who weren't young girls. They ate mostly processed foods made out of flour and vegetable oil, and salads, and ate too little to boot.

 

[ebola?]

there you go.
selection bias FTMFL.

 

[michael]

now that i am (ugh) "older" the vegetarians i know tend to eat a little better than the omnivores. barely, though.

the vegetarians i knew at 18-21 and thereabouts ate pasta and pizza almost exclusively.

 

[slimvictor]

I don't think that going lacto-ovo vegetarian or vegan (hence-forth known under the superordinate category, "vegetarian") solely for health reasons makes a great deal of sense. Ethical concerns tie in most directly to vegetarian practice, and then environmental and health benefits relate less directly.

The most healthy diet possible would include fish.

I can't say that I agree with you here. At least, not for me.

I am vegan for health reasons, though I am not "strictly" vegan - maybe once a month or two, I eat some animal product, either for social reasons or because I am craving it (I always go with my cravings, for better or worse).

Vegan diets, if they include a wide variety of foods, seem to me to be far superior nutritionally to the average omnivore's diet, and also superior even to a carefully planned omnivorous diet.

For example, it seems like a good idea to reduce total fat intake, particularly saturated fat.

From the Harvard School of Public Health:

A 6-oz. broiled porterhouse steak has 38 grams of protein, and 44 grams of fat
(of which 16 grams are saturated - nearly 75% of the day's limit).
A 6-oz. piece of salmon has 34 grams of protein, and 18 grams of fat (of which 4 are saturated).
2 cups of cooked lentil beans have 36 grams of protein, and less than 2 grams of fat.

The same Harvard S.o.P.H bulletin also says that
"Animal protein and vegetable protein probably have the same effects on health."

Therefore, to get your daily protein without swimming in fat, beans make more sense than meat or fish.

But, you might say, the fish oil is healthy, so where are you going to get your healthy oils with a vegan diet?

Olive oil, hemp seeds (and hemp seed oil), sunflower seeds, pumpkin seeds, flax seed oil, sesame seed oil, almonds, cashews, walnuts, etc.

With the fish, there is real danger of contamination, but seeds and nuts are much safer.
For example, is the salmon I mentioned in the comparison above wild or farmed?
If it is farmed, it almost definitely has high levels of several extremely dangerous chemicals in it. I quote from Andrew Weil's website:

"A just-released study commissioned by the Pew Foundation measured levels of organic contaminants in 700 fish (about two metric tons), purchased from wholesalers and retailers in large cities in North America and Europe. Whole, raw, farmed salmon, farmed salmon fillets, and whole wild fish (representing five species of Pacific salmon) were tested. Fourteen chemicals were studied, including toxins such as PCBs, dioxins, dieldrin and toxaphene - all fat-soluble compounds that tend to accumulate in the fat of ocean fish.

The general findings are shocking: the expert commission found that the total organic contaminants were consistently and significantly more concentrated in the farmed salmon as a group than in wild salmon. This includes dioxins and PCBs - both believed to increase the risk of certain cancers and to be harmful to the developing brains of fetuses and infants of women who are pregnant or breastfeeding. The average dioxin level in farm-raised salmon was 11 times higher than in wild salmon, and the average PCB levels were 36.6 parts per billion (ppb) in farm-raised salmon, versus 4.75 ppb in wild salmon....Based on this information, the researchers involved in this study recommend limiting consumption of farmed salmon to one-half to one meal total per month. Bottom line: I agree."

So, even if you go to salmon for your good oils, it had best be wild salmon, or else you should limit it to one-half to one meal per month.

Other fish are worse, believe it or not. Here are some examples of fish - these are not farmed, but wild - and the chemicals known to be found in them (I have included 10 of the 38 fish listed on page 172 of "Alternative Medicine: The Definitive Guide", ed. B. Goldberg, Future Medicine 1993)

Freshwater Bass - Dioxin, chlordane, DDT, dieldrin, PCB's
Catfish - BHC, chlordane, DDT, dieldrin, dioxin, heptachlor, PCB's, toxaphene
Coho Salmon - BHC, chlordane, DDT, dieldrin, dioxin, HCB, heptachlor, PCB's
Great Lakes Salmon - BHC, chlordane, DDT, dieldrin, dioxin, HCB, heptachlor, PCB's
Lake Trout - as Salmon above
Maine Lobster - PCB's
Mackerel - BHC, chlordane, DDT, HCB
Norwegian Salmon - BHC, lindane, PCB's
Shark - DDT, PCB's, mercury
Striped Bass - BHC, chlordane, DDT, dieldrin, HCB,heptachlor, PCB's, nonachlor, mercury

This list represents the state of the earth's waters more than 15 years ago. I can't imagine that it would better now, but I would guess that it is probably much worse.

This is why eating fish is not, to my mind, healthy. There is nothing that I get from fish that I can't get from plant foods, other than DDT, etc. Oh, and certain social benefits, like not having to be left out of the group, since nearly everyone where I live eats a tremendous amount of fish.

A vegan diet has no cholesterol, unlike diets that include animal products.
Any reasonable vegan diet is high in fiber, which is completely lacking in animal products.
As long as you include a wide variety of whole grains, beans, nuts, seeds, vegetables, and fruits, instead of living on processed cereals and soy milk, and you do your research, particularly on B12 and EFAs, and know where you are getting these nutrients, it seems much healthier than a diet including meat, to me.

Oh, and by the way: once I became vegan (or, actually, 98% vegan), my asthma went away. I had more energy every day. I felt better after meals, instead of having to sit for a half hour or more, digesting. For me, if all the health books in the world say something is good, but it doesn't feel right to me, I will drop it instantly. However, my real test - the test of how I feel - showed me that eating primarily vegan was best for my body.

I have been a non-strict vegan for more than a decade, including periods or a year or more during which I ate no animal products at all. I have never once told anybody else that their diet is wrong, or imagined that I am morally superior to any other human being due to my diet. To my understanding, a vegan diet seems - theoretically - to be the most healthy diet, but I also acknowledge that some people would not be happy on such a diet, and it might not agree with their bodies. I consider diet to be a personal choice.

I have seen vegans that pretend that they are morally superior to non-vegans, and militant vegans, and I prefer to avoid anyone who fits these descriptions.
I have no trouble eating with people who order steak or ribs, and I have even tried the very unusual meats I have encountered, due to curiosity (boiled cow's lung, scorpion, cobra, fried worms, dog...).

I decided to participate in this discussion because it is about the health of vegan/vegetarian/omnivorous diets, which interests me.
Attacking people for their beliefs or diets does not interest me.

I also think that some omnivores seem scared of vegans, as if they believed that the vegans really were morally superior, and they get defensive, or attack suddenly. They look like they feel threatened. The militant-type vegans seize on this, and attack (or return the attack). I do not see anything to be gained with this type of battle. I think that nobody should feel morally inferior due to their diet. I hope that this thread maintains the attitude of exploration and sharing without anyone attacking someone for their diet.

Finally, my opinion doesn't match with that of the OP. I eat organic to the greatest extent possible, regardless of cost (though I simply don't buy the things that are outrageously expensive). However, I would rather eat "conventionally grown produce" than "organic meat". I feel much better after eating it. This is just my opinion, based on my body.

 

[ebola?]

Vegan diets, if they include a wide variety of foods, seem to me to be far superior nutritionally to the average omnivore's diet, and also superior even to a carefully planned omnivorous diet.

I don't see how this could be. Imagine a maximally healthy vegan diet. Now imagine the judicious addition of nutritionally key animal-foods (I'm thinking primarily of fatty fish from un-polluted sources).

Olive oil, hemp seeds (and hemp seed oil), sunflower seeds, pumpkin seeds, flax seed oil, sesame seed oil, almonds, cashews, walnuts, etc.

Many of these lack significant omega-3 fatty acids, and many of those which are rich in omega-3s also bear ample omega-6s (the goal is to ingest the proper ratio of the two, not the proper absolute quantities), and finally flax seed oil, which has a good ratio of the two, lacks DHA, and it is unclear whether our body can synthesize optimal DHA from ALA.

Most of these are very healthy foods though.

A vegan diet has no cholesterol, unlike diets that include animal products.

Dietary cholesterol actually bears little effect on blood-serum cholesterol. Your argument about saturated fat stands, though.

ebola

 

[slimvictor]

I don't see how this could be. Imagine a maximally healthy vegan diet. Now imagine the judicious addition of nutritionally key animal-foods (I'm thinking primarily of fatty fish from un-polluted sources).

But there is a fallacy here - you can't just add fish to such a diet. The fish, which is very high in calories, must replace other calories. That means that you would have to choose which vegetables, grains, beans, seeds/nuts, or fruits to not eat, in order to eat the fish, unless you simply increased your caloric intake over what was needed, which is not healthy.

Many of these lack significant omega-3 fatty acids, and many of those which are rich in omega-3s also bear ample omega-6s (the goal is to ingest the proper ratio of the two, not the proper absolute quantities), and finally flax seed oil, which has a good ratio of the two, lacks DHA, and it is unclear whether our body can synthesize optimal DHA from ALA.

Well, it is true that the balance of omega-3s and 6s is considered important by many (all?) experts. However, exactly what this balance is is not always agreed upon. Udo Erasmus, in "Fats that Heal; Fats that Kill", suggests that hemp seed oil represents a perfect balance, but not flax seed oil, unlike what you (and others have) suggested. It seems that the issue is far from resolved.

Just because someone has fish in their diet doesn't necessarily help with the balance of omega-3s and 6s. The ideal balance, whatever it is, is achievable through both vegan and animal sources.
Walnuts, hemp seed oil, and flax seed oil are very good sources of omega-3s.

As for DHA, fish get it from microalgae, which also is a clean source for humans.

Dietary cholesterol actually bears little effect on blood-serum cholesterol.

True, but what I find interesting is that all, or nearly all, studies of the effects of saturated fat in the diet seem to ignore the potential effect of cholesterol. There are no studies, to my (admittedly quite limited) knowledge, of the effects of saturated fat on humans in the absence of the intake of cholesterol. There is reason to believe that the two may be affecting each other, however, or that the combination is what is really bad (or so I have been told).

 

[Nibiru]

I don't see how this could be. Imagine a maximally healthy vegan diet. Now imagine the judicious addition of nutritionally key animal-foods (I'm thinking primarily of fatty fish from un-polluted sources).


Many of these lack significant omega-3 fatty acids, and many of those which are rich in omega-3s also bear ample omega-6s (the goal is to ingest the proper ratio of the two, not the proper absolute quantities), and finally flax seed oil, which has a good ratio of the two, lacks DHA, and it is unclear whether our body can synthesize optimal DHA from ALA.

Most of these are very healthy foods though.

Hemp seed oil contains around twenty percent alpha-linoleic acid. I'd say that is a significant amount of omega-3. Actually, hemp oil is said to have a nearly ideal ratio of fatty acids by some people. it's about 3:1 omega-6 to omega-3. I've always read that people need a higher ratio of omega-6 to omega-3. But I've read some stuff that contradicts it too. Really, it seems up in the air. A lot of nutritional science comes down to scientific opinion in many cases.

 

[Tronica]

I'm an almost vegan vegetarian and I'm happy and healthy. It's not that hard, once you know how - and especially if you live in a veg friendly place like inner-city Melbourne, AU.

Eating 100% vegan at home means we never gets things like pizza or take-out anymore. We make our own home-cooked meals. We take a B12 supplement and get a lot of protein too. Meh, it's not that hard, and it's not that expensive either. Meat/dairy/eggs are costly compared to the wholefood vegan alternatives. Fair enough, it probably takes more time/effort than an omnivore diet, but I like creative cooking so that's less of an issue for us.

I do agree with some of the OP's sentiment though. Organic is important and we try to buy that where possible. AND to be a healthy vegan, you need to be educated about your diet. It's easy once you know how though.

 

[ebola?]

But there is a fallacy here - you can't just add fish to such a diet. The fish, which is very high in calories, must replace other calories. That means that you would have to choose which vegetables, grains, beans, seeds/nuts, or fruits to not eat, in order to eat the fish, unless you simply increased your caloric intake over what was needed, which is not healthy.

Yes, hence my suggestion that fish be added judiciously. Small amounts of fatty, healthy fish could make a vegan diet more well-rounded, providing nutrients that are more difficult to acquire from plant food, without displacing too many healthy plant-foods.

Well, it is true that the balance of omega-3s and 6s is considered important by many (all?) experts. However, exactly what this balance is is not always agreed upon. Udo Erasmus, in "Fats that Heal; Fats that Kill", suggests that hemp seed oil represents a perfect balance, but not flax seed oil, unlike what you (and others have) suggested. It seems that the issue is far from resolved

Oh yes, nutritional knowledge about types of beneficial fats is in its infancy. While hemp seed oil indeed provides a very good ratio of oils, the typical diet of a first-worlder will already be quite high in omega-6s (from most oil-seeds), so the addition of foods with as high an omega-3 to 6 ratio as possible approaches ideal. Luckily, vegans tend to consume less fat overall, which reduces their need for omega-3s, as they consume fewer omega-6s.

Just because someone has fish in their diet doesn't necessarily help with the balance of omega-3s and 6s. The ideal balance, whatever it is, is achievable through both vegan and animal sources.
Walnuts, hemp seed oil, and flax seed oil are very good sources of omega-3s.

Oh, I concur.

As for DHA, fish get it from microalgae, which also is a clean source for humans.

Last I checked, these supplements were prohibitively expensive. This also runs counter to the whole food ideal.

True, but what I find interesting is that all, or nearly all, studies of the effects of saturated fat in the diet seem to ignore the potential effect of cholesterol. There are no studies, to my (admittedly quite limited) knowledge, of the effects of saturated fat on humans in the absence of the intake of cholesterol. There is reason to believe that the two may be affecting each other, however, or that the combination is what is really bad (or so I have been told).

I don't have nutritional studies either, nor am I any sort of expert. The only real import of dissociating the two is that eggs have turned out to be pretty healthy, despite the cholesterol that they contain.
...
Don't get me wrong--I'm a practicing vegetarian, was a vegan for 5 years, and continue to hold veganism as an ethical ideal. L.O.-vegetarianism is my current compromise between ethics, health, and hedonism.

ebola

 

[Coolio]

I wish krill oil was cheaper - it's a great source of omega-3's.

 

[Coolio]

Dietary saturated fat and cholesterol have little to do with human health. What no researcher has done is put two and two together that increased saturated fat intake always comes with reduced dietary fiber intake in any study which implicates saturated fat ingestion as harmful. It's not the fatty acids that are harmful; it's just not acceptable to replace fiber with carbs and fat.

 

[Nibiru]

An excess of arachidonic acid, an omega-6 fatty acid found in animal fats and peanuts can cause an exacerbated immune response in Humans, potentially aggravating conditions like allergies, lupus and rheumatiod arthritis. Intake of arachidonic acid is mostly associated with intake of heavier fats from animal sources. The human body can synthesize it's own AA from linoleic acid, and although AA is needed, it is a good idea to keep AA intake minimal in favour of other fatty acids.

 

[belarki]

Just curious as to where on the food chain do vegetarians draw the line?

I see Balarki talks about non breathing, non-sentient creatures but surely just because an organism does not scream that it is still not aware. Plants respond to pest attacks and will grow and move in response to it's environment. Surely a tree who is alive for 50yrs has some sort of "emotional" interaction with its surrounds, even though it doesn't have a humanoid like central nervous system. What about bacteria? Do Protozoa become safe as soon as they are multicellular? Or a worm whose nervous system is extremely primitive? Is there a safe size? Which creature will be the next to evolve and suddenly become vegan safe?

I for one only eat the stupid creature from the herd. You know, the slow idiotic one that would cause grief and be attacked first if they were hunted by a lion etc. They are usually the sacrificial animal that the herd is happy to be rid of most of the time.

Haha are you trying to bait me into an argument Busty? Not likely to happen, I'm not at all militant in my vegetarian views. Hell I still cook meat for my friends/family I just don't eat any. Your post made me laugh though Much like this picture that I saw linked today (not mine):

I'll happily eat any animal I kill myself... it just hasn't happened in the last 8 years. Maybe one day? I'm far from perfect and will not hesitate in swiftly killing any spider bigger than a fifty cent piece that crosses my path. Creepy little fuckers

Diet-wise I'm pretty much in the same boat as ebola:

...
Don't get me wrong--I'm a practicing vegetarian, ... and continue to hold veganism as an ethical ideal. L.O.-vegetarianism is my current compromise between ethics, health, and hedonism.

ebola

I used to be pretty strict with rennet, wine fined with fish bladder etc but turn a blind eye every now and then. Life's too short to miss out on good cheese and wine :D

 

[ebola?]

I did a ~5.5 year stint as a vegan but. . .cheese tastes good.
I also stay full a lot longer, which can be convenient.

 

[Tronica]

I think it all depends on why you went vegetarian in the first place.

I read a thought-provoking article recently about this here which you might be interested in, belarki and ebola? - from VeganFreak

I also have a vegan friend with a blog who has been having fiesty conversations with fellow vegans, vegetarians and everyone else under the sun about it too: On vegetarianism

I, too, drink non-vegan wine and occasionally eat cheese. The links/conversations above, however, have really challenged the conclusion of "vegetarianism is my current compromise between ethics, health, and hedonism" though. Especially the suffering associated with dairy.

belarki - I also had a laugh at that vegan/carnivore pic It pays to be able to laugh at yourself

 

[slimvictor]

Yes, hence my suggestion that fish be added judiciously. Small amounts of fatty, healthy fish could make a vegan diet more well-rounded, providing nutrients that are more difficult to acquire from plant food, without displacing too many healthy plant-foods.

You might be right, but then again it is so difficult to find clean fish nowadays.
If they don't contain DDT, then they probably have mercury, or some other poison.
For me, contemplating the perfect diet, it is not worth the risk.
(This said, I do eat fish occasionally, and enjoy it thoroughly! And I recognize that I could be getting just enough of some nutrient by eating fish once every month or two that I am healthy, but if I were a perfect vegan I might not be as healthy).

Cheese tastes great, and it was the hardest thing to give up when I became vegan.
Ice cream is replaceable with soy or coconut "ice cream", but fake cheese tastes bad (or so I thought - more below).
However, once I gave it up, my asthma went away....
So, for the health of my own body, a vegan diet seems best.

Finally, I recently found a fake cheese that tastes amazingly like the real thing.
It is called "sheese".
I don't know if I am allowed to put a link to the website or not.
To be safe, I will refrain, but if you google "sheese vegan cheese" you will find it.
It is not particularly healthy, but for those of us whose bodies prefer not to deal with dairy, it tastes almost exactly like the real thing.

 

[Tronica]

Finally, I recently found a fake cheese that tastes amazingly like the real thing.
It is called "sheese".

Yup - there's definitely some reasonable fake cheese out there. It's not cheap though and it's quite a processed product. We use it occasionally on mexican burritos or vegan burgers.

There's also this stuff called yeast flakes - they are yellow salty flakes that have heaps of Vitamin B and are like a cheese sprinkle? Good for sprinkling on stuff, funnily enough

 

[ebola?]

I find vegan gourmet passable, but really, I prefer my own mock cheese sauces.

I, too, drink non-vegan wine and occasionally eat cheese. The links/conversations above, however, have really challenged the conclusion of "vegetarianism is my current compromise between ethics, health, and hedonism" though. Especially the suffering associated with dairy.

I'll check the link in a bit, but, yes, that's the nature of my compromise: I exact additional 'discretionary suffering', compromising ethics, for my own self-interest. But I could not stomach compromising such ethics outright.

 

[belarki]

So it turns out I may have haemocromotosis... pending a genetic test to confirm it. Looks like a meat-free diet may have been doing me unexpected good all along :D