unhealthy vegan/veggie lifestyle?

[BeckyLee]

I am practically, vegan, though I don't label myself as such, b/c I eat fish and eggs or dairy when I want. I'm a pescetarian.

I DO eat mostly raw though, and my day-to-day diet is 90% vegan. I have to be honest. I have been slowly refining my diet through the past 10 years (gave up red meat-> lacto-ovo-vegetarian-> vegan -> healthy pescetarian), and the main reason I do it is for the HEALTH gains I have seen (vs. animal rights)...

I do love how my diet is beneficial for the environment, and am totally against the general ethics employed in factory farming. What I found MOST incredible, initially, was giving up cheese and processed soy; since I have nixed cheese/processed soy from my diet I have always (despite my stupid body dysmorphia telling me otherwise) stayed thin without trying at all.

I was a chubby kid growing up, and a chubby teenager, so I do not consider myself "naturally thin" per se. The benefits I've seen have been clear skin, more energy, regular BM's, and strong, healthy nails & hair.

When I tell other women about my diet, they immediately want to know more about it, (veggies, fresh juices, mostly vegan), and I've unwittingly created a few converts, all because I tell them, I'm not on a diet. I eat certain things, when I want, and how I want it.

It makes me happy to introduce ppl to a healthier, more ethical, and environmental way of eating without the nazi vegan propaganda.

EDIT: When I first posted my reply, I was using BL mobile, which for some reason wouldn't let me view page 1 of this thread or the OP....

I do agree that eating organically is important, but still feel healthier eating non-organic veggies vs. organic meat. It's already been stated that meat production is very inefficient. I reccommend reading any of the books by John Robbins for good information along those lines.

 

[Wave Jumper]

The most healthy diet possible would include fish.

This must be one of the dumbest statements ever!!!

Apparently you are not aware that fish live in the sea, which is polluted beyond imagination, and animals tend to stock many chemicals in their body fat. So when you eat a fish you are also consuming large amounts of PCB's, heavy metals (Hg, Pb, ...) and all other sorts of chemicals. The ammounts will vary depending on which type of fish you're eating.

But I would dare to say that if you would eat one specific type of fish on a daily basis for years and years it could have a life threatening effect on your health due to accumulation of pollution.

Or maybe you were talking about organic fish?

1. I don't think that going lacto-ovo vegetarian or vegan (hence-forth known under the superordinate category, "vegetarian") solely for health reasons makes a great deal of sense. Ethical concerns tie in most directly to vegetarian practice, and then environmental and health benefits relate less directly.

Let it be clear that I'm well aware of the ethical reasons for vegetarianism as I've been a lacto-ovo-vegeterian for more than two years myself. The reason I didn't focus on those issues is simply because this is the "healthy living" forum.

But anyhow in my original post I said "I don't understand what's healthy or beneficial about eating vegetables that have been treated with all kinds of pesticides".

So I did imply that there are other reasons than health! And what about the non-usage of GMO's and pesticides aren't those ethical reasons as well?

I really wonder wheter you read my original message; obviously you completely misinterpreted it or simply wanted to see something that wasn't there. You are somehow accusing me of saying that ppl adapt to a veggie lifestyle soley for health reasons, but I can't see how I could have given you that impression. Anyway, it's no big deal, but my advice to you would be not to jump to conclusions to fast or don't try to read between the lines when there's nothing to see there.

For me personally the most important ethical reasons are about the usage of inappropriate tools like GMO's, pesticides and fertilizers, next to the fact that the production of meat is an extremely wastefull procedure (as explained before by Nibiru). The fact that an animal has to be killed an sich has never been an issue for not eating meat for me personally. The fact that animals are being brutally slaughtered and terorrised their entire life is!!! Organic farming methods imply that the animals are given enough space and are treated with respect in general. So if such an animal is being killed for consumption in an appropriate way (ok, for some there will be no appropriate way) I have no problem with it.
It still strikes me that we are feeding animals with soy and other things which could have been used to feed ppl, who are starving to death! That's also a very big issue to me.

To Nibiru: I'm not really concerned about eating GMO food, because here in Europe they got labels for that. Allthough one should be aware that the GMO crops are infecting organic crops and when you are aware of the powerful lobby that's behind GMO's, you know the future isn't looking too bright. These companies are dreaming of controlling our food through patents!! Did you know that organic farmers who suffer from GMO contamination are actually sued by those companies for "stealing" their seeds! It's ridiculous if you ask me.

Anyway, what I originally wanted to bring forward was the fact the GMO soy is being produced in large ammount in South America and ends up in Europe as food for our cattle. This is why I resist non-organic meat, 'cause in my perspective companies like Monsanto and Pfizers are no worse then nazi Germany!

 

[Arnold]

Cooking is something we all take for granted but a new theory suggests that if we had not learned to cook food, not only would we still look like chimps but, like them, we would also be compelled to spend most of the day chewing.

Without cooking, an average person would have to eat around five kilos of raw food to get enough calories to survive.

The daily mountain of fruit and vegetables would mean a six-hour chewing marathon.

It is already accepted that the introduction of meat into our ancestors' diet caused their brains to grow and their intelligence to increase.

Meat - a more concentrated form of energy - not only meant bigger brains for our ancestors, but also an end to the need to devote nearly all their time to foraging to maintain energy levels.

As a consequence, more time was available for social structure to develop.

'Accident'

Harvard Professor Richard Wrangham believes there is more to it than simply discovering meat.

He thinks that it is not so much a change in the ingredients of our diet, but the way in which we prepare them that has caused the radical evolution of our species.

"I think cooking is arguably the biggest increase in the quality of the diet in the whole of the history of life," he says.

"Our ancestors most probably dropped food in fire accidently. They would have found it was delicious and that set us off on a whole new direction."

To understand how and when our bodies changed, we need to take a closer look at what our ancestors ate by studying the fossil records.

Our earliest ancestor was the ape-like Australopithecus.

Australopithecus had a large belly containing a big large-intestine, essential to digest the robust plant matter, and had large, flat teeth which it used for grinding and crushing tough vegetation.

None the less, it was Australopithecus that moved out of the trees and onto the African savannah, and started to eat the animals that grazed there.

And it was this change of habitat, lifestyle and diet that also prompted major changes in anatomy.

Bigger brain

The eating of meat ties in with an evolutionary shift 2.3 million years ago resulting in a more human-looking ancestor with sharper teeth and a 30% bigger brain, called Homo habilis.

The most momentous shift however, happened 1.8 million years ago when Homo erectus - our first "truly human" ancestor arrived on the scene.

Homo erectus had an even bigger brain, smaller jaws and teeth.

Erectus also had a similar body shape to us. Shorter arms and longer legs appeared, and gone was the large vegetable-processing gut, meaning that Erectus could not only walk upright, but could also run.

He was cleverer and faster, and - according to Professor Wrangham - he had learned how to cook.

"Cooking made our guts smaller," he says. "Once we cooked our food, we didn't need big guts.

"They're costly in terms of energy. Individuals that were born with small guts were able to save energy, have more babies and survive better."

Professor Peter Wheeler from Liverpool John Moores University and his colleague, Leslie Aiello, think it was this change in our digestive system that specifically allowed our brains to get larger.

Energy transfer

Cooking food breaks down its cells, meaning that our stomachs need to do less work to liberate the nutrients our bodies need.

This, says Wheeler, "freed up energy which could then be used to power a larger brain. The increase in brain-size mirrors the reduction in the size of the gut."

Significantly Wheeler and Aiello found that the reduction in the size of our digestive system was exactly the same amount that our brains grew by - 20%.

Professor Stephen Secor at the University of Alabama found that not only does cooked food release more energy, but the body uses less energy in digesting it.

He uses pythons as a model for digestion as they stay still for up to six days while digesting a meal. This makes them the perfect model as the only energy they expend is on digestion.

His research shows that pythons use 24% less energy digesting cooked meat, compared with raw.

So being human might all be down to energy.

Cooking is essentially a form of pre-digestion, which has transferred energy use from our guts to our brains.

According to Professors Wheeler and Wrangham and their colleagues, it is no coincidence that humans - the cleverest species on earth - are also the only species that cooks.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/8543906.stm
Confirms what I knew.

 

[psychomimetic]

Man evolved, homo erectus was one of the first to eat meat, the one's before him were herbivores(or quite close to the definition of herbivore as they probably ate fish...).
Going vegeterian is reversing the trend of human evolution if you ask me.

I'd say going vegetarian is being environmentally friendly, health conscious (even the NIH has said that a balanced vegetarian diet is healthier then a balanced diet that includes meat). There are also a multitude of moral reasons (which is why I became a vegetarian). Just because humans have done something since the beginning of the species doesn't mean that it's acceptable.

Also, how does going vegetarian devolve humans? I see absolutly no way in which vegetarianism reverses the trend of human evolution. Living in cities, in the typical modern human fashion, holds back evolution far more than vegetarianism, and most people (myself included) live in such a fashion.

 

[ebola?]

This must be one of the dumbest statements ever!!!

Have you seen some of the statements that people make?

Or maybe you were talking about organic fish?

As was indicated by the nuances that emerged as I conversed with SlimVictor, yes, this is what I meant. The healthiest diet possible, bracketing aside all practical contingencies, would include some amount of carefully sourced (free of deleterious pollution, not farm-raised, etc.) fish of certain sorts.

But anyhow in my original post I said "I don't understand what's healthy or beneficial about eating vegetables that have been treated with all kinds of pesticides".

So I did imply that there are other reasons than health! And what about the non-usage of GMO's and pesticides aren't those ethical reasons as well?

I really wonder wheter you read my original message; obviously you completely misinterpreted it or simply wanted to see something that wasn't there.

Actually, I agreed with it, and harboring no qualms, really replied to other things / riffed on my own. Sorry for having been so opaque.

The fact that animals are being brutally slaughtered and terorrised their entire life is!!! Organic farming methods imply that the animals are given enough space and are treated with respect in general. So if such an animal is being killed for consumption in an appropriate way (ok, for some there will be no appropriate way) I have no problem with it.
It still strikes me that we are feeding animals with soy and other things which could have been used to feed ppl, who are starving to death! That's also a very big issue to me.

Yup. This is how I tend to think of things.

 

[Amebix]

Theres a great book called the vegetarian myth by lierre keith I'd strongly recommend to anyone interested in food politics, she touches pretty deeply into some of what people are saying here. You can get most of the book for free on google books.

http://books.google.ca/books?id=_KG...&dq=vegetarian+myth&cd=1#v=onepage&q=&f=false

 

[R.ticle One]

I'd just like to add a few thoughts of mine.

Years ago, I was a mostly-vegetarian; I also did a very poor job of it - some of the respondents in this thread have described it well. I pretty much ate what wasn't meat. For me, that meant a lot of bread, honey, yogurt and chees, sweet things, not enough vegetables...not at all a well balanced diet.

I also worked with a vegan; she was overweight, often ate candy, and was fond of saying things like "I'm a vegan! I'm indestructible!" (as she tossed down some crystallized sugar based FD&C tinted, fake flavored garbage).

I'm not saying that my example and hers make up the bulk of your average vegetarian's or vegan's dietary practices and outlooks; but I've heard of it happening enough for it to be of concern.

I once worked with a vegan on a farm for a couple of months; he appeared very healthy - quite buff, in fact, a strong looking guy. He was an extreme minimalist in his diet; a great deal of peanut butter (for protein and fat I assume) on whole grain breads; veggies; fruits; and took all his foods plain (no seasoning).

Not long before he arrived at this farm, he was sent to the hospital emergency (so he said); he nearly died from something in his diet. Was it a deficiency? Lack of salt or something else? I'm not sure if/what he said. No matter, after he corrected it, he seemed active and capable and fine.

I've met two anorexics; they were both vegetarian, bordering on becoming vegan. Both seemed to have some sort of "spiritual" mindset. I've no idea if it was related.

Then again, there's the vegan bodybuilding website and forum, and Brendan Brazier, the vegan Ironman competitor, and probably plenty of healthy examples, too.

And there are, without doubt, plenty of unhealthy omnivores! Just take a look around your average North American city.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that you can mess up most ways of eating - and what works best for one person may not be the best for the next. Though I think there are probably some basic dietary rules which apply to all of us to varying degrees.

Me, personally? These days I consume a lot of animal protein (both beef and fish). How come? I've had food-related issues much of my life. I ate gluten for over twenty years without knowing it was damaging my guts until a lab test finally confirmed it. Same with most dairy, though fortunately I seem mostly okay with butter.

I would often get itchiness on my skin, foggy thinking, bad gas, or anything else when I ate foods. I guess you could call it food sensitivity, because it's happened with so many that it couldn't be an allergy to everything.

I think the aggravation to my intestine and immune system from the gluten, combined with an unwise consumption of too much sugar (mostly from dried fruit and honey and maple syrup, which, while "natural" are still highly concentrated), and the garbage I ate when I used to smoke pot, may have increased some issues and fostered a state of dysbiosis (I know some dispute that candida overgrowth can be a problem, but I've even had it come to the skin; I believe it can be a real issue for some). All these things aren't good for your digestion.

Recently, having been under a lot of stress, I started reacting to more and more foods. There was a point when everything made me itch and get a rash, even steamed broccoli. I fasted for five days and took glutamine and other nutrients to help heal the gut lining.

I'm still experiencing some issues but have improved.

Some might wonder why I'd eat so much animal protein if I had gut issues. Well, because grains and beans (which most people have been taught to think are very healthy foods) aggravate me more than most anything else it seems. Even gluten free grains. Beans have never been easy for me to digest at all times. And seeds, even soaked and dehydrated, started bloating the hell out of me. Eggs, I ate four of per morning for years on end, and may have developed a sensitivity to (they are one of the most allergenic foods); I'm taking a break from them, now. Most protein powders in quantity don't agree with me.

What does that leave me for protein? A few nuts - I seem moderately okay with almonds and pecans. Otherwise? Meat and fish.

And you know what? Since eating low heat dehydrated all-or-mostly grass fed beef, and wild caught salmon and sardines, along with a lot of fat, both saturated and not (butter, coconut oil for cooking, olive oil, and the fat in the beef), along with smaller amounts of fresh fruits and veggies, my symptoms have improved a lot.

I'm still having some issues, but not like before. The few carbs I eat, the less bloated and gassy I tend to feel. I know I've got work to do and I think I'm experiencing a lot of stuff coming to the fore that may have been years in the making, but it seems like this mostly "paleolithic", "primal", call it what you will, grain and legume and dairy (apart from butter), no concentrated sugar way of eating may be what my body needs. I hope it is.

There's a really interesting PDF out there; it's called "Cereal Grains: Humanity’s Double-Edged Sword". Definitely something to read, especially for those whose diet is grain heavy, or those who would adhere to the so-called food pyramid, which is very carb-heavy. I'm now of the mind that a grain-heavy diet is not what human evolution gave us the bodies for.

Here's a link to the PDF:

http://www.direct-ms.org/pdf/EvolutionPaleolithic/Cereal%20Sword.pdf

Do some people feel good when they eat grains? Oh, I'm sure they do, and more power to them! I sure enjoyed grains, and I still crave a nice slice of bread, slathered in butter; though now I just slather my steamed veggies in butter.

But what I didn't enjoy was being bloated and fuzzy and possibly damaging my digestion and having sugar crashes from eating so many carbs. There might be a lot of people eating tons of grains who experience the same things. It can be hard to go from running on a lot of carbs to utilizing dietary and stored fat for energy, but I've found it can feel like a more "even" sort of energy, once you're used to it.

The same I could say for beans.

And there are probably people whose systems can handle these foods better than others. I'm not sure if I'm one of them right now.

On a moral/ethical level, I'm not crazy about the idea of an animal feeling pain or dying so I can eat it. I don't really enjoy that - I try to be grateful for the meat I eat, and don't take well to the attitude that some meat eaters have (ie, "Rawr! I'm going to rip into my bloody piece of dead cow now! Yum!").

I find that attitude rude and disrespectful, and it earns no points with me; I wonder if it's a retaliatory response to more militant vegans using similar in-your-face tactics to someone eating meat...?

I'm not choosing to eat meat because it's meat; I'm choosing to eat it because I need foods that my body can digest, which don't cause me to break out in a rash, and because it seems what my body often craves. I'd love it if I could thrive as a raw vegan, eating tons of nuts and seeds and whatever else all day, but I feel that wouldn't be the best thing for me right now, though props to those for whom it works. I will not eat factory farmed meat.

On the note of vegetarians/vegans, I've heard enough stories of those who tried the whole vegan thing and became too thin and too unhealthy to continue - even by doing it "the right way". Maybe it just wasn't the best for them, personally, while for others it is.

I am a bit concerned about how much fish I eat; yes, it's lower mercury (wild salmon and sardines), but canned, and I've had it for a couple or so years, numerous times most days. Soon as I have a solid source of grass fed beef I'm reducing my fish intake big time and maybe doing a gentle heavy metal detox.

If I keep improving, I may well try to reintroduce certain foods. But for now, it's meat, fruits, veggies, fats, and a few nuts.

On the note of fat and cholesterol. I see it mentioned that vegan diets have little to no cholesterol and saturated fat. I do not believe this is a good thing! Cholesterol is not the demon it's been made out to be; nor is saturated fat. Our bodies also manufacture cholesterol - it's a vital component for our functioning. And saturated fat alone does not make you fat! I'm a fine example of this, being lean and reasonably muscular despite a high saturated fat intake; and any blood work that's ever been done on me has shown no lipid, liver, kidney, inflammation, or other such issue.

And I believe that it's inflammation, not cholesterol, which is the real concern for heart disease.

I think the bigger problems are an excessive intake of carbohydrates, especially from grains, gluten, rancid and industrially processed oils, high quantities of sugar, too much animal fat from cows eating too much grain (poor omega 6:3 ratio) and combining bad carbs with bad fats, along with poor intake of produce.

Give a person a diet high in clean saturated fats, good proteins, low in grains and lots of veggies and fruits, and they'll likely shed unwanted pounds. Feed 'em lots of grains and canola oil, limit protein, and most will probably gain fat and lose muscle mass. They may lose some scale-weight from pooping things out from all that fiber...some exceptions may apply, of course!

Anyone concerned with cholesterol, and considering taking, or taking statins, for the love of God, at least read up on what those drugs can do to you; even the fact that they can interfere with Coenzyme Q10 (which, ironically, is important to the heart) should be a warning that they're joke, nevermind any other side effects.

In short, I do not think that becoming vegan or vegetarian is how we're all "supposed" to eat and live. It can be an emotional or moral ideal for many; for others, it can be a health related choice; they may thrive on it because it may be what their body needs at the time, or simply because they are far more mindful on it than when they ate anything from a grocery store shelf like before.

For others, their bodies may respond much better to a "evolutionary/paleolithic/primal" diet, rich in meats and fats, including some fruits and vegetables, and eschewing grains and legumes.

Regardless, I hope that anyone who's gotten this far in my message of unplanned length read that PDF and reconsider the amount of grains they consume, as well as consider their fear (if they have one) about fat and cholesterol. I think the satisfaction that most people note when consuming a (healthy) food rich in fat says something about our needs. It's not a sugar rush - it's something deeper and more stable.

http://www.westonaprice.org/The-Benefits-of-High-Cholesterol.html

http://www.amazon.com/Fat-Cholesterol-are-Good-You/dp/919755538X

http://medicalconsumers.org/2003/06/01/cholesterol-skeptics-conference-report/

...sound like interesting places to start. Now, what you'll read is probably contrary to what you've been taught. 'Course, anyone here should know that a lot of what we've been taught as truth is complete bullshit, anyway. Yes, there are the inevitable "skeptics" who will and do pick away at various hypotheses such as those presented above, attacking methodology or whatever else. I do find it interesting, though, that the very first site I found attacking the promotion of cholesterol admonished readers to not even think about discontinuing their cholesterol lowering drugs. Pro-pharmaceuticals seems to be a dominant theme among most "skeptical" websites...

Ahem. My post is not to be considered professional advice. I'm not held liable for anything. These are my thoughts and opinions, observations and experiences.

No disrespect to any vegans or vegetarians intended! I eat meat right now, but I don't go shoving it in people's faces, and I equally appreciate those who choose not to eat meat not going around reprimanding everyone who chooses to do so.

Good luck to everyone!

Edit: Forgot this link, on the topic of fat; an interesting Blog called Hyperlipid:
http://high-fat-nutrition.blogspot.com/