unhealthy vegan/veggie lifestyle?

[Wave Jumper]

It kinda strikes me that many ppl out there are focussed on eating strickly vegetarian or vegan meals without taking in consideration the fact wheter this food is originated by organic (or socalled biological) farming methods. I don't understand what's healthy or beneficial about eating vegetables that have been treated with all kinds of pesticides. It might hurt your stomach when you realize you are in fact sponsering dirty transnational companies who are making alot of cash by selling GMO seeds, fertilizers and pesticides. ;-)

Personally I prefer an organic piece of meat above a vegan dish consisting of GMO vegatables that have been intensively sprayed. Also IMO the former appears to be less harmfull to the environment, as sustainability is the main objective of organic farming. Thoughts, anyone?

 

[Arnold]

Man evolved, homo erectus was one of the first to eat meat, the one's before him were herbivores(or quite close to the definition of herbivore as they probably ate fish...).
Going vegeterian is reversing the trend of human evolution if you ask me.

 

[Enlitx]

Man evolved, homo erectus was one of the first to eat meat, the one's before him were herbivores(or quite close to the definition of herbivore as they probably ate fish...).
Going vegeterian is reversing the trend of human evolution if you ask me.

I would tend to agree. Although it is possible to include all of the appropriate proteins/chemicals found in meat by taking certain supplements, I just don't think we know enough about what is in meats to craft a diet completely devoid of them. I never understood the reasoning behind it either, but maybe I am just an amoral bastard . Animals would eat us in a second without hesitation, it is just the way the world works.

 

[jam uh weezy]

most animal farms are extremely harmful to the environment. There is a lot of waste produced by these animals, that isn't usually dealt with in the most efficient ways.

I agree about the organic vs, GMO/pesticide thing tho. I still eat meat, I get organic raised if possible.(and it usually is!)

 

[ThaiDie4]

This is a good point, and in my own personal expierence being a vegatarian I was guilty of this at times. I appologize if I'm broading this topic a bit: I was a vegitarian from age 12 to 19, and the first few years I really had no idea about how to adapt to healthy habits after cutting out all meat. I would just eat chips and candy and stuff, or whatever bread, fruits and veggies were around my house. It wasn't until high school that I started caring about my nutrition to better myself in athletics. But I've never eaten totally organic, my family just isn't really willing to spend all the extra money on it. I'm back to eating meat now, but yeah, I totally can see both sides of the spectrum- being vegetarian is only healthy if you conciously TRY to be healthy. Skipping out on meat alone isn't some sort of miracle diet.

 

[Coolio]

Most vegetarians are carbohydrate addicts killing themselves slowly with insulin resistance and metabolic disorder.

 

[belarki]

For a lot of vegetarians (myself included) the main purpose behind the diet isn't to eat more healthily or because of a lower impact on the environment (though they are welcome benefits); it's the ethics of it all. I'm not happy with the concept of killing a living, breathing creature that can experience emotion, pain, etc just to satisfy my hunger when I could eat something non-sentient instead. I don't care if it's sound reasoning in an evolutionary sense (though Einstein thought so) or whether an animal would eat me given the chance. That said I don't go around telling people they should or shouldn't eat meat. It's a personal choice.

I prefer organic products when they're available and the price is within reason. From what I've read the nutritional benefits are negligible, though I agree with Wave Jumper in that I'd rather not be

sponsering dirty transnational companies who are making alot of cash by selling GMO seeds, fertilizers and pesticides. ;-)

 

[Nibiru]

Man evolved, homo erectus was one of the first to eat meat, the one's before him were herbivores(or quite close to the definition of herbivore as they probably ate fish...).
Going vegeterian is reversing the trend of human evolution if you ask me.

Metabolically, Humans are omnivores. There are cultures that naturally don't eat very much meat. I think organisms evolve adaptability. Humans can adapt to a vegetarian diet easily. Many poorer agrarian cultures are vegetarian for the most part because a goat or a cow will give a lot more milk than meat over the course of it's life, and so is more practical to keep alive. I think really the evolutionary trend is to what is more practical given the circumstances. For a lot of people, meat isn't very practical, and for a lot of people it is, depending on their environment.

Given the amount of resources that are used to produce meat that could be used to produce other foodstuffs, I think that the industrial livestock agricultural model is indeed impractical and energy inefficient, in a time where energy issues should be a serious concern. And it's no real mystery that a large amount of illnesses in Canada, the UK and the United States can be implicated to an excess of animal foods. Heart disease kills a lot of people in these nations, and a diet that relies heavily on vegetal foods, either in addition to, or in place of animal foods is lower in cholesterol and saturated fats. Given the fact that a lot of dietary sources of anticancer chemicals like flavinoids and phenols come from plants, I really don't see why a more vegetable-heavy or vegetarian diet is going against the grain of evolution at all, unless you happen to be living in a far-northern climate. (successful) evolution is about adapting to an environment, really.

 

[Nibiru]

Personally I prefer an organic piece of meat above a vegan dish consisting of GMO vegatables that have been intensively sprayed. Also IMO the former appears to be less harmfull to the environment, as sustainability is the main objective of organic farming. Thoughts, anyone?

Well, the main GMO vegetables out there right now are corn, soy and canola. Those are the bulk of what has been approved, along with cotton, whose seed oil is sometimes used in food. The likelihood of a person to eat a dish full of GM vegetables is really nil, unless their dish is all soy and corn cooked in canola oil. There was a GM papya on the market for a while, but I think it's been removed.

If these foods are certified organic in the US or Canada (and many other countries) they are free from GM food. I tend to avoid all processed soy, even organically grown, however, since it's a by-product of oil extraction, which uses hexane (a petroleum distillate) to extract the oil from the beans. The beans are too full of protein to be pressed. Processed soy is rubbish.

 

[Mehm]

^^I totally agree with the first paragraph here.

And lol at however said we don't understand what is in meat....

 

[Dtergent]

Nibiru, GM papayas are being cultivated in our country. The laws are pretty lax and the monitoring even more shitty.

The OP compared organic meat to non-organic vegetables, which is pretty unreasonable. Organic vegetables cost less than organic meat. However, non-organic meat fed with non-organic grain or protein usually contain the chemicals that can be bioaccumulated, on top of everything else. Personally I would say that vegetables would still be better, given they are both conventionally farmed.

One point raised about vegan/vegetarian diets is in a non-diverse marketplace of foods, many of us tend to be carbohydrate-dependent. This is bad, for your teeth, appearance, and body. I do tend to agree that some cultures can do well with starting glass houses and depending on animals that can process grass/etc. when human-food is scarce, but again the levels of consumption of dairy and etc. have to be checked vs. what is reasonable in nature.

For instance, Sweden is dairy-land and have some relationship to their cows due to their harsh winters, but the level of dairy consumption now is unnatural. There are some terrains wherein sunlight is best processed through human-inedible plants by animals (e.g. steep rocky mountainsides, icey places), and it is crazy for people to ship vegetables in to continue living there. People who eat meat are also eating way more than they could grow outside of a totally energy-intensive context, but once in awhile is okay, I suppose.

 

[cocamatic]

I practically go vegetarian(and some days fully vegan) on some weeks because of the season. I guess I'm blessed by having access to great produce. I love eating ripe fruit when it's in season. This is followed by cravings of fatty fish though so I'll pig out on sushi from time to time. The only time I really, really, want a cut that's red and well marbled is in the fall and winter. Don't know why... maybe all of those home made stews I enjoyed as a kid during the cold months. Comfort food for me.

I think vegans can become deficient in iron, B12, and vitamin D if they don't plan their meals well. But cacao has iron, nutritional flakes have B12, and if they cook mushrooms they can get vitamin D2 so.... Can't be all that bad if you get more informed of where you can replace nutrients usually found in/fortified in meat and dairy products.

 

[LivingInTheMoment]

Vegetarian diets need to be carefully planned as they don't have the ready prepared essensial amino acids needed to be taken in, as the body can not make them, especially lysine, which assist in the production of protein for muscle and other substances. The same goes for vitamin B12 and essential minerals-including zinc and iron which meat provides and these are to say the least. What chemicals animals may have ingested, if you have a good liver, will be ridden off, especially if your fat deposits are kept at a low level so they are not stored in there.

Balance is a good rule of thumb, and though organic is better, it is not always fissible.
A detox diet once every so often is good to detoxify the system.
we can't avoid the chemicals, whether in the environment of in food etc. We can only do the best we can with what we have. We live very hectic lives, and being practical is what we most go for, so balance and detox intermmitently would be best.

 

[Nibiru]

Essential amino acids can be found in a lot of plant tissues though. The issue with iron is that vegetal iron is not as easily absorbed as animal iron, but it is present in a lot of places. B12 can be an issue in vegans, since bacterially fermented foods (the only natural non-animal source of assimilable B12) aren't popular in many cultures, although many European and Asian cultures have traditionally eaten bacterially fermented foods. I think though that B12 is more of an issue for vegans than vegetarians.

And ultimately, I think living a hectic lifestyle should be avoided! I eat a mostly vegan diet, and can work really hard and stay in shape because I live in a place where lots of different food is grown and people are busy, but not the same kind of busy as hectic urban people. I don't really do the whole cleansing thing since I keep myself running smoothly through avoiding artificial and over processed foods, refined sugar, booze and most drugs. I think this is a good thing to strive for. If a person can't have the time to be healthy and eat what they need to be healthy, and need to worry about getting exercise instead of just getting it because their lifestyle is full of hard work, then I don't really get why they put up with it.

 

[Dtergent]

^Thanks for that input, Nibiru. If you don't have the time or money to do all those cleansing and lots of exercise, just try to eat well and keep reasonably active. It's better to avoid excess energy/resources than having to deal with disposing of them.

I would really suggest fermented food, they are easy to make. Wild Fermentation is a good book to start experimenting with. If you can get kombucha or tibicos cultures, try to experiment to come up with gastronomically pleasurable ways to incorporate them into your diet. The local wine we have is also an indigenous cure for indigestion, so perhaps those cultures who don't have hyper-dead alcohol can utilize that too.

The bottom line for me would be to enjoy food. I meet so many vegans who are gaunt and also pretty joyless, sort of like food fundamentalists. Fermented food can easily give lots of amusement and flavor to your meals.

 

[Busty St Clare]

Just curious as to where on the food chain do vegetarians draw the line?

I see Balarki talks about non breathing, non-sentient creatures but surely just because an organism does not scream that it is still not aware. Plants respond to pest attacks and will grow and move in response to it's environment. Surely a tree who is alive for 50yrs has some sort of "emotional" interaction with its surrounds, even though it doesn't have a humanoid like central nervous system. What about bacteria? Do Protozoa become safe as soon as they are multicellular? Or a worm whose nervous system is extremely primitive? Is there a safe size? Which creature will be the next to evolve and suddenly become vegan safe?

I for one only eat the stupid creature from the herd. You know, the slow idiotic one that would cause grief and be attacked first if they were hunted by a lion etc. They are usually the sacrificial animal that the herd is happy to be rid of most of the time.

 

[Nibiru]

Just curious as to where on the food chain do vegetarians draw the line?

I see Balarki talks about non breathing, non-sentient creatures but surely just because an organism does not scream that it is still not aware. Plants respond to pest attacks and will grow and move in response to it's environment. Surely a tree who is alive for 50yrs has some sort of "emotional" interaction with its surrounds, even though it doesn't have a humanoid like central nervous system. What about bacteria? Do Protozoa become safe as soon as they are multicellular? Or a worm whose nervous system is extremely primitive? Is there a safe size? Which creature will be the next to evolve and suddenly become vegan safe?

I for one only eat the stupid creature from the herd. You know, the slow idiotic one that would cause grief and be attacked first if they were hunted by a lion etc. They are usually the sacrificial animal that the herd is happy to be rid of most of the time.

Some people are more fanatical than others. Myself, I tend to view it based upon an evolutionary gradient relating to energy usage. Motile organisms generally use up more energy than nonmotile organisms, however don't provide any more nutrition than many fungi and vegetables do in a lot of cases, so I choose to avoid eating animals. Where my motive is more spiritual, some people only do it mainly for health reasons. Some people, like the Jains in India try not to kill anything, and go to great lengths to avoid destroying animal or plant life. Many Jains won't even eat root vegetables because the plant has to die.

But in my garden, I'll not hesitate to kill insects if they become a problem using organic insecticides like tobacco tea, hot pepper, soaps, neem oil etc. If I know somebody who keeps hens for eggs, I'll try to give the pests I hand pick to their chickens instead of just destroying them, and I try to create a microclimate in my garden by planting many different things so that a good insect predator population develops. I try to eat organically grown food too, because pesticides cause a lot of damage to many species other than pests and also damage to ecosystems, especially when used improperly. I was working in farms all my life, and in orchards, I saw that birds will make their nests in the trees before pesticides are sprayed. What happens to them after they spray I don't even want to think about, since organophosphates can be pretty toxic to vertebrates, especially birds. Pesticide use wipes out many more species than just the pests, where organic culture often relies heavily on natural predators as much as it does on pesticidal methods, meaning to me that it's often part of a more natural cycle of life and death to me.

I really just try to minimize my killing of animal organisms. I make concessions, but I do my best, and where I try to draw the line is with anything with a nervous system. I don't really look down on people who rely on meat, and I have a lot of respect for hunters, but I choose to avoid killing animal organisms to my best ability.

 

[Busty St Clare]

Oh thank God, so I'm sweet shucking oysters off the rocks at the beach to expose their soft fleshy skin, then squeeze lemoney citric acid and salt over them before swollowing them whole while they try and scream for mercy

I often wonder the fanatics take on parasitic worms. I mean they are just simply living in their own little world, but I for one am quite happy to use a non organic pharmaceutical response to wipe them out. What is the Buddist take on thread worms?

 

[Dtergent]

Teachings of Indian vegetarian ayurveda say that both fermented food and mushrooms (both in the realm of zoology rather than botany) are considered "tamasic" or things that will dull your mind and are not good for your body-- I'm not sure if this has anything to do with their "animalness" or related attributes.

Personally, I "fell out of" eating meat, as it was not a preference of mine since childhood, the main reason being that I felt better overall not eating it. The most meat/insect I'd eat is perhaps an ant floating in my juice, or a fisheye or liver a couple of times a year.

 

[LivingInTheMoment]

Essential amino acids can be found in a lot of plant tissues though. The issue with iron is that vegetal iron is not as easily absorbed as animal iron, but it is present in a lot of places. B12 can be an issue in vegans, since bacterially fermented foods (the only natural non-animal source of assimilable B12) aren't popular in many cultures, although many European and Asian cultures have traditionally eaten bacterially fermented foods. I think though that B12 is more of an issue for vegans than vegetarians.

And ultimately, I think living a hectic lifestyle should be avoided! I eat a mostly vegan diet, and can work really hard and stay in shape because I live in a place where lots of different food is grown and people are busy, but not the same kind of busy as hectic urban people. I don't really do the whole cleansing thing since I keep myself running smoothly through avoiding artificial and over processed foods, refined sugar, booze and most drugs. I think this is a good thing to strive for. If a person can't have the time to be healthy and eat what they need to be healthy, and need to worry about getting exercise instead of just getting it because their lifestyle is full of hard work, then I don't really get why they put up with it.

Yes, but that is what I am talking about, that it has to be planned carefully. The every day person out there, who becomes a vegan without knowing how to blend and pick the right vegetables and other foodstuff in order to obtain those necessary nutrients, where otherwise would be getting them ready provided through meat, they then can fall ill after awhile.


Thank you Busty for your sense of humor-and for the creative visuals of the oysters-they are delicious with lemon!!