understanding what China White *truly* is

[CuriousCub]

this has turned into a fabulous discussion. thanks for all participating -i will be back with more questions when i get the time to continue.

 

[zorn]

Fentanyl manufacture carries no significant risk of neurotoxic contamination.
The neurotoxic substance italyouth/bornthird mentioned was MPTP (1-methyl-4-phenyl-1,2,3,6-tetrahydropyridine). It's not recreational in itself[1], but it can easily be accidentally produced in the synthesis of MPPP (1-methyl-4-phenyl-4-propionoxypiperidine). MPPP is a potent opioid and not particularly toxic.
I'm not too familiar with the mechanisms of MPTP toxicity (all I know it's oxidized to a toxic metabolite), but see [2] and [3].
-Zorn
[1] Johannessen JN, Markey SP. (1984) Assessment of the opiate properties of two
constituents of a toxic illicit drug mixture. Drug Alcohol Depend 13:367-374.
[2] Przedborski S, Jackson-Lewis V. (199 8) Mechanisms of MPTP toxicity. Mov Disord 13 Suppl 1:35-38.
[3] Tipton KF, Singer TP. (1993) Advances in our understanding of the mechanisms of the neurotoxicity of MPTP and related compounds. J Neurochem 61:1191-1206.

 

[PhreeX]

Yup, fentanyl is just horribly interesting IMO ... as for the guy that made it in Cali - while he was a success in making it they failed to actually give any information in regards to HOW difficult the stuff is to make .. they made it sound like some idiot pothead got bored and decided to whip up a few metric tons of synthetic smack .. this guy had college chemistry and from what I understand he had been doing a vast amount of research about it... the news story made it sound like this was someone that went to his local hardware store and got everything he needed to brew some of this - I would have liked to see a photo of his labs and all the glassware, maybe a list of the chemicals they siezed .. I have read the story several times because it's so interesting, but they could have done a better job in describing HOW ALMOST IMPOSSIBLE this would be for your average person...
"Combining knowledge from a couple of college chemistry courses with information from the Internet" .. they make it sound like he had his Organic Chem I class then found Drone's fentanyl "recipe" and 2 days later had 8.8 pounds of the stuff ..

 

[Hellfiregurl]

by bornThird

when i was taking neuroscience courses in almost every text book where they discussed dopamine neurotransmitters and parkinson's disease, they also mentioned a surge of a 'certain drug' on the streets in the 80s that gave a ton of people parkinsons disease
According to the same book I previously mentioned, Designer Drug Abuse - Michelle McCormick, in the early 70's late 80's there are documented cases of synthesized MPPP being contaiminated by MPTP by a minor error during synthesis. It says MPTP is "drawn" to dopamine producing cells, and destroyed them forever, causing the highly advanced Parkinson's disease.
Wow the topic sure is different now!

 

[Grand Master of Somniferon]

Originally posted by Ayrios:
Yep, codeine and morphine are the truly "naturally" occuring opiates in plants. Semi-synthetics like heroin are derived from it. Truly synthetic stuff like fentanyl and propoxyphene are just similar in action. There are I believe 2 other compounds in opium but I'm not sure as to their psychoactivity in comparison.
Papaverine and Noscopine are the other two, I think. I don't know about noscopine, but I don't believe that papaverine is psychoactive. It is a smooth muscle relaxer.

 

[dmraver]

Just a little more interesting side information, I read a while ago that the MPTP (1-methyl-4-phenyl-1,2,3,6-tetrahydropyridine contaminated MPPP (1-methyl-4-phenyl-4-propionoxypiperidine) was distinctive in terms of a burning sensation upon IV injection.

 

[CuriousCub]

Originally posted by blahblahblah:
Ill sort it out for you CuriousCub, as I see alot of misinformation in this topic. The biggest misconception (Quote taking from the founder of ODU, you figure he would know not to spread misinformation
...by the way let me know when ODU grows up and and starts to funtion like a REAL drug site, than maybee I'll consider rejoining
First off saying Fentanyl is the original China White is a completely false statement. "China White was the term given to so-called "No. 4 heroin" refined in southeast Asia. And it is the queen of dope. This was the begining of the new grades of heroin that through the means of further purification were an off white color, hence the mane "China White".
Now, the orginal China White #4 has been around for along time and it was here prior to Fentanyl. Fentanyl was first synthesized in the Netherlands in the mid-1960s.
Alpha-methyl-fentanyl is the most common form of the fentanyl (which is distantly related to demerol) that has found it's way on the streets. And, yeah, it was touted by the losers who were dealing it as "China White," but that's as close as it came to the real thing. Definitely, there are plenty of folks selling Fentanyl as real China White, since most junkies haven't had china White, they can't tell the difference for sure..
Fentanyl - "heroin without the soul" No scratching, but no profound dreams either and it's pretty shortlasting. Plus it's so damned potent that if someone fucks up the cut, it's absurdly easy to take a hotshot. You usually know that there's a big batch of alpha-methyl-fentanyl on the street because you see news stories about big clusters of ODs. In my book, there's no real substitute for God's Own Medicine--and that ain't something that comes from a test tube but from the honest old poppy!
Fentanyl did NOT have the quality of Euphoria associated with China -- China White feels like Heroin, perfect Heroin...To me, Fentanyl felt like a very powerful synthetic imitation of China White, but the organic smack warmth was missing---This might sound blasphemous, but Fentanyl was like Heroin without a Soul.....I'm not sure if there's a Santa Claus, BUT there is a "China White"
Fentalyn is still sold on the streets nowadays as heroin, but there are select groups that deal exclusively in Fent. and sell there product as what it is "Fentanyl". The high is comparable to heroin, but its just not the same as heroin. Curious Cub there is a form of popies with the name "China Whites" and I am sure they could produce a decent heroin if produced in mass. when they slice the poppies open to collect the nectar, it first appears creamy, clear or white. This could have been the reasoning behind naming a certain strain of poppies "China White" for its extemely white discharge. One the opium discharges from the poppy the sun discolors it as does the air and other factors and it changes to a dark tan mass, i.e. real opium. From there its futher refined to make either tar (bottom of the barrel), Sandy brown, Karachi (yellowish rock hard dope), and than they can further refine it to produce white dope, certain batches were refered to as China White, as in #4. The same dope is still around these days and is sold in most big cities.
Fentalyn makes a surge everynow and than by a rouge chemist, but illicit Fentalyn touted as "China White" is fairly uncommon, anybody that is selling Fentanlyn as "China White" shouldnt the should sell there drug for what it really is, Fentayln. (Granted some do).
SO to some it up the Original China White is a highly refined form of heroin, China White was a name given to the dope. This naming of this new form of white heroin was done long before Fentanyl was even first discovered.
-Why *exactly* was fentanyl even invented? Was it made as a marketing ploy, or was there logical reason/motive behind it? and why was it made to be so astonishgly much more potent than all other opiates? Also -u mention that "This naming of this new form of white heroin was done long before Fentanyl was even first discovered. " Discovered or invented? all you mention is that it was was synthesized.
- So the real C.W, so-called "No. 4 heroin", is indeed still available?
"Fentalyn makes a surge everynow and than by a rouge chemist, but illicit Fentalyn touted as "China White" is fairly uncommon, anybody that is selling Fentanlyn as "China White" shouldnt the should sell there drug for what it really is, Fentayln. (Granted some do). "
With that said-Which is more available today then -Fen or actual C.W?
-If the effects of fen are so different from that of true C.W, and assuming based off your statements that true C.W is still available, why do people confuse them so much and become unable to differentiate which is which? How did fenantyl become known as the modern day C.W? should it be attributed soley to run-of-the-mill street drug propaganda?
-just to verify, You mention there is form of poppies called China White...now this is where C.W got its name, and this is what it was originally in reference too, right?

Well, fentanyl could be made in a lab, where as heroin has to be made by utilizing huge poppy fields and refinerys. In the end fentanyl is going to be much cheaper to make than heroin, and at 40 times the potency. If they wanted they could make the fentanyl, cut it down, and sell it off and make huge profits, that would be much higher than they could ever make on heroin. However, some people, like the others have said, have died because they have gotten uncut fentanyl.
Now is this the factual reason as to why fentanyl was invented?

I am not aware of any naturally occuring opiates other than those contained in opium, and endorphins(which are considered the body's natural opiates). 'Original knowledge he heard' sounds like something I would say if I was BSing you, but that might just be me. Ask your friend where he got this knowledge from.
original as in that was the first set of info he was dealt during his course of study, which was a blend from the streets and formal instruction learned about a generation ago. so, mixed perceptions ensue.

 

[TheTripDoctor]

First off i would like to say that WAY to many posts have been added to compile anything usefull out of this.
Second, there is another naturally produced opiate which is an indole in structure but affects the MU receptors. Yes, thats a tryptamine like the rest of the tryptamines you know. Interesting huh
Now on to fentanyl, fentanyl and its relatives were produced as a synthetic and "growless" opiate, somewhat like methadone was produced to allow for opiate use (read: pain killers) in lieu of morphine production which was entirely natural as it still is mostly.
Synthetics allow one to have access to a chemical in spite of its natural counterparts, IE you have a bad crop one season or its impossible to grow poppys because of a war or something, and one chemist can churn out enough of an identical chemical in a weeks time to supply the whole world for a year.
Now take that for what you will, but it was entirely a legitimate operation that researched, tested and produced what you now know as fentanyl. It was not produced like MPPP was in order to skirt drug laws and get people high, rather it was produced as a VERY cheap alternative to natural morphine, which is still used today. Most pharmaceutical morphine comes from poppys still, and if you read into countrys like burma and the like you will find that a large portion of there production is for legitimate (hahaha) uses such as refining and producing morphine sulphate for pharmaceutical use.
Why would one want to produce a chemical so much more potent than heroin or morphine? well, to start off, why would it matter? say you had never known the MG dosages of morphine or heroin, and someone showed you a small pile of cut heroin containing around 10mg in 100mg of "powder", would you then assume that heroins dose was 100mg? would a dose of 10mg then shock you? likewise, just because fentanyl is active at 100mcg (.1mg) doesnt mean anything either way, just that it performs its effect in quanitatively lower amounts. In every respect, 100mcg of fentanyl is equivalent to 10mg morphine when both are injected IV, the only real difference being that fentanyl does not cause histamine release in theraputic doses (no itch), and has a much shorter duration of activity oweing to the fact that fentanyl can be easily metabolized.
The only problem with fentanyl being so potent is that idiots in the illicit world cut it incorrectly, and as a result of prohibition it cannot be produced in a liquid dosage form illegally as it would be infeasable and not safe for anyone to posess in terms of likelyhood of being caught. The process for cutting fentanyl goes something like this:
a precisely weighed amount of fentanyl (1g) is disolved in a precise amount of solvent (usually methanol, 40ml), and then a proportion of another powder (usually lactose, 9g) is disolved with it and this is then evaporated to give a somewhat homogeneous powder mixture which is then mixed further by hand. This as opposed to dry mixing the powders which would produce a heterogeneous powder which could then vary in actual ratio of fentanyl to cut. THAT is the danger.
For you who were wondering, fentanyl is NOT related to phenathrenes like morphine chemically, and is a piperidine derivative. Piperidine is a 6 sided hydrocarbon with a single nitrogen in one position of the ring. Specifically fentanyl is a piperidine ring, with 2 phenyl or benzene rings attached to the top and bottom, if you position the piperidine ring so that the nitrogen is at the bottom. You can look here
Phenathrenes like morphine consist of 3 benzene (6 sided hydrocarbon ring) like rings and varous substitutions around the center rings. They look absolutely nothing alike, but to a receptor they both have the key binding points and propertys that allow them to form a bond with the receptors, though morphine binds to MU and fentanyl only binds to U1 and U2.
morphine can be viewed Here
In the end most people like fentanyl a lot and it is said by most that it has a much harder "hit" when injected than heroin, but that heroin lasts longer. I have heard many many users tell me about how there were 2 kinds available, tan powder which lasts 4 hours, and white powder which lasts 1 to 2 hours and hits like a train. Its not hard to figure out what each is.....
The dosage weight is really trivial as well as i said above, and isnt nearly as important as the binding affinity. In USP grade injection form, a solution of 100mcg fentanyl in 1ml water is no more dangerous than 10mg morphine in 1ml water.
[ 18 April 2002: Message edited by: TheTripDoctor ]