Social Justice Transgender and gender identity discussion

[SKL]

@SKL do you ever think about writing up your views for publication? Do you know Quillette, the journal for Heterodox thought? I think you’d love it.

Yeah I'm familiar with Quillette. They have put out a lot of good stuff on the trans issue but have a lot of cool perspectives in general.

After your first kind words that my thoughts on the question might be publishable I did think of collating editing and adding some references to what I wrote here. Quillette might be a good avenue for that if I can do so without doxing myself. Not only would I not want to connect my words to my Bluelight profile but the TRAs like to dox people too and having unorthodox opinions on these issues is increasingly something that can get you into trouble professionally (something I've given no small amount of thought to as it will no doubt come up when I return to work.)

 

[HatingThisLife]

I disagree.



"The" reality?

I don't think it is transphobic to say that Elliot Page is a woman. Using slurs is transphobic, but it gets complicated when you are forcing people to believe something they don't believe in order to not be a bigot.



I don't think it's helpful to reinforce people's delusions in order to not offend them. That is not my style. I like to say it how it is... I would use male pronouns, I guess. There's no anger. It's just a little frustrating that I'm being forced to contribute to someone's mental illness. It's comes more from a selfish place though, honestly. I don't want someone to dictate what I can and can't say.

There is a HUGE difference between saying something racist to a Black person and refusing to use male pronouns when talking to someone that looks and sounds like (and is) a woman.



Here's this objective reality again.

v

The transgender movement is the most frightening aspect of far-left PC culture dictating what people are allowed to say and do.

At the end of the day, nobody (aside from a select few) actually think trans women are women. A lot of the people on the pro-trans side of the argument - which is the clear minority - believe that trans women are not women, but trans women... but, we're supposed to treat them like they're women?

I don't think it's helpful to people to lie to them.

Its not a mental illness and that statement in itself. There i plenty of science and you may choose not ton read it Nd educate yourself about it but in chosing not to, you do come off as a u educated, ignorant bigot. I use to think just like you until i educated myself and my views chaged.

All of your comments are rude, hurtful and disgusting

 

[Mr. Krinkle]

Its not a mental illness and that statement in itself. There i plenty of science and you may choose not ton read it Nd educate yourself about it but in chosing not to, you do come off as a u educated, ignorant bigot. I use to think just like you until i educated myself and my views chaged.

All of your comments are rude, hurtful and disgusting

Yea that was his lame response to me but im not wasting my time with somebody who can't see beyond his own nose

he should go back to playing horse shoes out in the yard with Bart and Darla

 

[birdup.snaildown]

All of your comments are rude, hurtful and disgusting

Absolute nonsense.

 

[SKL]

you may choose not ton read it Nd educate yourself about it but in chosing not to, you do come off as a u educated, ignorant bigot.

im not wasting my time

No offense to birdup but reply to one of my posts from earlier then. I dare you to call me uneducated on these matters. This dismissing of people as "ignorant" and "bigoted" is a cheap rhetorical tactic, a refuge for people who have bought into an ideology but aren't really sufficiently conversant in it to actually, you know, debate.

 

[Mr. Krinkle]

No offense to birdup but reply to one of my posts from earlier then. I dare you to call me uneducated on these matters. This dismissing of people as "ignorant" and "bigoted" is a cheap rhetorical tactic, a refuge for people who have bought into an ideology but aren't really sufficiently conversant in it to actually, you know, debate.

you talking to me? i don't read your posts, they're too long

 

[birdup.snaildown]

This dismissing of people as "ignorant" and "bigoted" is a cheap rhetorical tactic, a refuge for people who have bought into an ideology but aren't really sufficiently conversant in it to actually, you know, debate.

This is exactly what is wrong with this and many other topics these days. Instead of having a civil discussion, people just call each other names.

 

[SKL]

you talking to me? i don't read your posts, they're too long

Was replying to both you and @HatingThisLife. As for not reading long posts, lol. It's occurred to me to maybe synthesize them into bullet points or something, but going after only the low hanging fruit shows your level of willingness to actually have a discussion about this issue. It's actually an extremely complicated issue. Just saying "TWAW" and leaving it at that does everyone involved a disservice and is a good example of a thought-terminating cliché.

he should go back to playing horse shoes out in the yard with Bart and Darla

And this is an extremely bigoted comment.

 

[Mr. Krinkle]

well do you guys really need to write a whole novel on the fact that you're too inconsiderate to call the transgendered by what they preferred to be called?

 

[SKL]

well do you guys really need to write a whole novel on the fact that you're too inconsiderate to call the transgendered by what they preferred to be called?

Wow, you really didn't read it. Pronoun stuff gets maybe a paragraph tops in everything I wrote and nowhere did I even take the position that we should insist on calling people by their natal sex.

 

[birdup.snaildown]

well do you guys really need to write a whole novel on the fact that you're too inconsiderate to call the transgendered by what they preferred to be called?

If you read SKL's posts you would realize that is not the case, nor is it the case for me. I have repeatedly said throughout the entire thread that I do not misgender people.

I'd prefer you to call me sir.

 

[Mr. Krinkle]

Wow, you really didn't read it. Pronoun stuff gets maybe a paragraph tops in everything I wrote and nowhere did I even take the position that we should insist on calling people by their natal sex.

I wasn't lying when i told you i don't read your posts...only reason you're getting anything out of me now is because you're quoting me

 

[birdup.snaildown]

If you don't read his posts, why pretend to know how he feels about the subject?

 

[Mr. Krinkle]

If you don't read his posts, why pretend to know how he feels about the subject?

i don't pretend anything - i wasn't even talking to him because i don't read his posts to respond to anything - he quoted me

 

[Jabberwocky]

It’s a shame that people skim through this thread. The debate has covered all sides and perspectives of numerous trans-related issues in a very nuanced way. In the main, it’s been good natured and well intentioned and treated trans people respectfully (even though there don’t seem to be many here to take offence).

 

[SKL]

I wasn't lying when i told you i don't read your posts...only reason you're getting anything out of me now is because you're quoting me

Well, alright then. People have called me tl;dr on here for more than a decade. I'd encourage you to give it a go, though, if this is an issue you care about. You'll find that, top to bottom, I insist on treating trans-identified people with compassion, and that the research I've done includes learning a lot, first person, from such people. You'll also find a very detailed treatment of some of the more troubling aspects of both sides of the contemporary trans debate.

Even before talking to you I was considering reducing some of what I wrote (I won't even call it "my argument" because I'm not arguing anything) to bullet points. I may yet do this, also adding some extra citations and the like. It would be a bit of a project, though, and I have a few of those.

It is a shame to me too that people don't read my stuff. I have put many, many hours into researching and writing in which I could've been doing other stuff as well.

 

[birdup.snaildown]

there don’t seem to be many here to take offence

I've found that very consistently actual trans people tend to take less offense to my opinions than cis SJW activist types.

@Mr. Krinkle

If you don't want to have an in-depth discussion about the issue, then don't. You are currently not contributing anything to the discussion.

 

[SKL]

I've found that very consistently actual trans people tend to take less offense to my opinions than cis SJW activist types.

Very true. Some of the younger activist type trans-identified people make it their business to be offended by anything and everything, but a lot of the people who do the day to day policing of speech about this stuff are not trans in the slightest. It is currently a very fashionable thing to get outraged about. The thing is that the people who are the most outraged, however they themselves identify, are often among those least able to have a constructive discussion.

 

[Mr. Krinkle]

Well, alright then. People have called me tl;dr on here for more than a decade. I'd encourage you to give it a go, though, if this is an issue you care about. You'll find that, top to bottom, I insist on treating trans-identified people with compassion, and that the research I've done includes learning a lot, first person, from such people. You'll also find a very detailed treatment of some of the more troubling aspects of both sides of the contemporary trans debate.

Even before talking to you I was considering reducing some of what I wrote (I won't even call it "my argument" because I'm not arguing anything) to bullet points. I may yet do this, also adding some extra citations and the like. It would be a bit of a project, though, and I have a few of those.

It is a shame to me too that people don't read my stuff. I have put many, many hours into researching and writing in which I could've been doing other stuff as well.

ya know what it is? it's the yankees logo...you lose me there

 

[birdup.snaildown]

The thing is that the people who are the most outraged, however they themselves identify, are often among those least able to have a constructive discussion.

QFT