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Social Justice Transgender and gender identity discussion

Does anyone think of Elliot Page as a man?

"He" doesn't look at all like a man. Top surgery doesn't mean anything to me. Women who have tiny breasts aren't any less woman. Same goes for women who've had double mastectomies.

It's frustrating that there's some weird invisible social force trying to intimidate me into saying I don't think Ellen Page publicly becoming a trans man isn't total bullshit.

Where does "am I the right gender" exist on Maslow's hierarchy?

I don't like saying Elliot Page.

My uncle changed his name over a decade ago. My mother (his sister) refuses to call him by his new name. I still find it super difficult to say it. After maybe fifteen years, I still have to correct myself.

I call Cat Stevens Cat Stevens too.
 
birdup.snaildown said:
Does anyone think of Elliot Page as a man?

"He" doesn't look at all like a man. Top surgery doesn't mean anything to me. Women who have tiny breasts aren't any less woman. Same goes for women who've had double mastectomies.

It's frustrating that there's some weird invisible social force trying to intimidate me into saying I don't think Ellen Page publicly becoming a trans man isn't total bullshit.

Where does "am I the right gender" exist on Maslow's hierarchy?

I don't like saying Elliot Page.

My uncle changed his name over a decade ago. My mother (his sister) refuses to call him by his new name. I still find it super difficult to say it. After maybe fifteen years, I still have to correct myself.

I call Cat Stevens Cat Stevens too.
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I understand all of what you say.

But if I personally introduced you to Elliott Page, or he introduced himself to you somewhere, as “Elliot” would you insist on referring to him to his face as Ellen?

Would you be gritting your teeth and burning with seething anger?

Often when I meet people who know of me, they ask “do you prefer Chris or Chrostopher”.

Anybody who kept up with Chris after I expressed my preference for Christopher is just rude aren’t they?

What’s the diff?

I’d go with Elliott every time. But it’s not making me think transx are real x.
 
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the issue with deadnaming etc, its not about what you personally think, its about harm to an individual human being.

it doesn't actually matter if that individual is mentally ill, or if biologically they are more aligned with the gender they transitioned to (and the more we learn, the more this looks to be the case), or anything. can people not just put their own views aside when interacting with people who are a huge target for hate crime, risk of suicide, etc, and do the compassionate thing?

i have some views that in the eyes of some, make me transphobic- i.e. i think that if you are born a man and transition well into adulthood, you have experienced male privilege and i don't think you can speak for me and my experience of being, and growing up as, a woman. but i'm not going to fucking say that to any transgender woman i meet because i am aware that she will already have had a monumentally difficult time and i don't want to add to that for the sake of an essentially pointless argument.
 
moderators shouldn't delete posts and say they are transphobic.


The actress formerly known as ellen, is "being" a man, and is able to get celebrated in the media because of the fame and wealth they amassed in the entertainment industry that is now cheering for the change.

this is not transphobic.
 
chinup said:
the issue with deadnaming etc, its not about what you personally think, its about harm to an individual human being.
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Sorry, but NO.

Ellen page won film awards as a woman for being an actress.

Just because she decided be a man, doesn't erase history.

She was born a woman, worked as a woman, and now she wants to be a boy. Whatever. But you can't go back in time and say that Elliot Page won Actor awards for the film Juno, because that didn't happen, as she was a woman who was awarded actress awards and people who were men were given actor awards. These are facts.
 
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assclass said:
The actress formerly known as ellen, is "being" a man...

this is not transphobic.
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it really is.

Elliott Page IS a man.

further, he is providing a role model for other transgender men, who historically have received little media attention. people in the public eye coming out about such things helps transgender men feel less apart from society (i guess, from my own analogous experiences).

i take your point about rewriting history but i don't think anyone is trying to claim that the person who won awards for their role in Juno wasn't, at the time, a woman and presenting as such. i've had similar arguments because i literally own music with the name tom gabel written on it and think its dumb to claim that tom gabel was, at that point while presenting as and i think also identifying as a man, in fact a woman. but laura jane grace is a woman.

it is possible for things to change over time. nobody has an issue with women getting married and taking their husbands name, but apparently taking an empowering step to realise who they truly are, if it involves gender reassignment, means the name they personally have chosen for themselves isn't valid.

there are loads of reasons to change name or even identity. i don't really see how gender reassignment is any different.
 
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chinup said:
it really is.

Elliott Page IS a man.

further, he is providing a role model for other transgender men, who historically have received little media attention. people in the public eye coming out about such things helps transgender men feel less apart from society (i guess, from my own analogous experiences).

i take your point about rewriting history but i don't think anyone is trying to claim that the person who won awards for their role in Juno was, at the time, a woman and presenting as such. i've had similar arguments because i literally own music with the name tom gabel written on it and think its dumb to claim that tom gabel was, at that point while presenting as and i think also identifying as a man, in fact a woman. but laura jane grace is a woman.

it is possible for things to change over time. nobody has an issue with women getting married and taking their husbands name, but apparently taking an empowering step to realise who they truly are, if it involves gender reassignment, means the name they personally have chosen for themselves isn't valid.

there are loads of reasons to change name or even identity. i don't really see how gender reassignment is any different.
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If you are transgender, I don't think you can moderate or judge the conversations on the topic, because of your bias.

I think you are wrong, and are spouting gibberish ideology, and I dont care if you are mentally ill or whatever, but I think that your ideas and opinions are dangerous for men, women and society at large, and just because you think they help a small minority, doesn't allow you or anyone else to inflict harm upon society.
 
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i am not transgender- the reference to analogous experience was about people coming out about things close to my heart in the public eye. or even being women who can do science.

you are the one who is denying reality. chromosomal configurations apart, my understanding is that the more research is done on transgender people, the more they are found to be, at a biological level, the gender they have transitioned to rather than that assigned at birth.

can you provide a realistic scenario in which accepting transgender people actually harms society at large, as you claim?
 
chinup said:
can you provide a realistic scenario in which accepting transgender people actually harms society at large, as you claim?
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I think if you are using surgery or hormones to change CHILDREN, we are creating long term risk for individuals requiring physical and mental health issues (we have socialized medicine, so that has economic costs to society, rather than individuals).


Simply, you give kids hormones, they grow up fucked up because of the unnatural hormones, and then harm themselves or have troubles.
 
assclass said:
If I cut off my penis, and call myself a woman, I AM STILL A MAN. MY BIOLOGY HAS NOT CHANGED. MY HISTORY IS NOT ERASED. I HAVE JUST DECIDED TO PRETEND TO BE SOMETHING ELSE.
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well you can call yourself whatever you want - nobody really cares to be honest


but to not recognize or call a trans in either direction, what they wanna be called, is just straight up rude and disrespectful
 
chinup said:
if biologically they are more aligned with the gender they transitioned to (and the more we learn, the more this looks to be the case)
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I addressed this above. There is no evidence for this being the case other than what is attributable to differences already seen in the brains of (non-trans-identitied) homosexuals, and even those differences are not uncontroversial. But the brains of trans-identified males who are attracted to women are not "feminine," only the Blanchard "homosexual-transsexuals" are. What's more, in trans-identified females like former Ellen Page, there is much less evidence than there is in trans-identified and androphilic males, the only population that has been studied to any great extent (and androphilic TiFs not studied at all.)

chinup said:
where accepting transgender people actually harms society at large, as you claim?
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This is a common rhetorical dodge: there is a great deal of difference between "accepting" trans-identified individuals (which can mean just offering basic human decency) and "accepting" transgenderism as an ideology (which you clearly do, stating "Elliot Paige is a man," an ontological claim that flies in the face of all objective reality without doing so.) The later is extremely harmful to a number of very vulnerable populations (teen girls with various preexisting risk factors being probably the largest, I also discussed this at length above as "ROGD," but the more-discussed issue or parents transitioning their very young children, while less common, is extremely problematic as well.)

I understand that people don't like to read long posts, but really I answer most everything that I suspect I am going to be asked there (the posts were very long :))
 
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@SKL i had not read that far back and have now read your post.

i have not looked in depth into the science- i checked the first couple of links on google regarding the transgender brain and none of them even contain the word 'homosexual' so in my about-to-go-to-bed state i can't assess the accuracy what you say. i would appreciate a reference. in the case where you state there has been no research i hope you would agree that means we can draw no conclusions.

i do not 'accept transgenderism as an ideology'- tbh i don't even know what that means so i'm not denying it either. i originally got involved in this thread because i wanted to say that what any of us actually thinks doesn't really matter to transgender people. if we deadname them or use the wrong pronouns it hurts them. i don't care about what their biological status is or what hormones or surgery they've had. i try to live my life without causing harm and in the case of people who do not identify as the gender they were assigned at birth it is easy to avoid harm by respecting the gender they identify as.

yes, i made an ontological claim- that is not ideological. according to my own definition, if someone presents as a man, and identifies as a man, they are a man. i think there is an ontological distinction between 'cisgender man' and 'transgender man' but linguistically i'm happy to call them both 'men.' i don't think me doing so is anything but basic human decency.

i disagree that transgender status is idealised and i would suspect that most people who don't fit in wouldn't go to the lengths of changing their gender to do so. i've never fitted in and most of my traits are male, not female, but i've never considered transitioning- its not a lighthearted thing. apart from you claiming they are problematic i didn't see any evidence or argument in the post you linked to.

i don't know where you are from but in the UK transitioning takes years, its not possble to do on a whim. you have to live as your identified gender for a year before you can even start getting any medical treatment and even after that it is a slow process. i can see there being issues in countries that allow people to rush the process- i'd guess a profit-driven healthcare service like the US is more likely to perform gender reassignment surgery and hormone therapy hastily and in that case certainly agree that is problematic.
 
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