Social Trans People & Dating Apps (Offshoot Thread from Gay Guys Thread)

[S.J.B.]

I think Eligiu is essentially correct, here. I wouldn't sleep with a transitioned trans woman and I accept that that is a transphobic preference. I wouldn't let a man give me fellatio, either, even if I closed my eyes and couldn't see him, and I suppose that's homophobic. And lots of people might not want to sleep with people of this or that race, which is racist. Or obese people, which is fat-phobic. But beyond the semantics I don't actually think this is a great sin. There are important and reasonable public efforts to limit discrimination in employment, housing, etc., but if you only want to sleep with blonde men with blue eyes who were born that way, whatever, it's your personal sex life and there's no reason you should feel compelled to sleep with (or date, kiss, whatever) someone you don't want to just so you can avoid a label you find uncomfortable.

I think the ideal version of myself would not care about any of this and would be willing to love anybody, no matter what they looked like or what gender/path-to-current-gender/sexual orientation/etc. they were. But I'm not, I have specific and uncomfortably shallow attractions, and frankly it's not something I am going to change.

 

[Conky]

Oh no, Mr. Krinkle said I'm ugly when he's never even seen a photo of me.

Lmao, bruh I know I'm hot. I get told it all the time, so one guy on a forum who decided he doesn't like me wants to call me ugly.

Ohhhh boo hoo, the cis said I was ugly. And because I actually care at all about cis opinions about my life, transition and journey now I'm so upset, and I'm crying. The cis made the tranny cry. Now he's put the tranny back in his place and fixed the issue with him being uppity. I have no self esteem without cis approval.

Hahahahaha. Lit. Bro got bother someone else, it's barely even annoying it's just amusing to me.

It doesn't count when your clients say your hot

 

[DeathIndustrial88]

You probably would not be and no one would expect you to be attracted to someone who had lived as a woman and appeared to be a woman just because they said they were a man.



This is interesting to me, what is the line for you? if someone was born as a woman, was completely transitioned and appeared completely male but did not have a penis could you get a blowjob from them? what if hypothetically they could transfer the mind of a woman into the body of a man - could you have sex with them? I am not trying to lead you into some kind of trap here - you can't control who you're attracted to - I'm just interested.



I agree up until you get to the point of people having preferences that infringe on others. When people have a preference to be around other white people and don't want blacks living in 'their' town, when people have a preference for trans gay men to not be in gay clubs, when people have a preference that Muslims don't send their children to the school their children attend.

Tbh, I'm not big into blowjobs anyway. lol
But honestly, I suppose if there were a deep, intimate bond between me and this hypothetical "trans man", then sure anything could happen.
I've seen some trans men who are incredibly convincing, handsome even, but just knowing they don't have a penis & weren't born a male turns me off in some way.
It's not anything I can control. It doesn't come from any place of bigotry or hatred for people like this at all. Just like I wouldn't fuck my female friends & it doesn't make me a misogynist. lol

There is something intrinsically about my "soul" (for lack of a better term for those who don't believe in souls) that desires to be with a male, who was born male. And that's just the way it is. It's offensive to me to have anyone call this a phobia though. What about my preference for biological male on biological male sex & love? (I'm not asking you specifically, -Winterborn-, more of less just stating this for the general discussion). To say that my preference for biological males is any kind of "phobia towards trans" is inherently untrue & bigotted IMO, as anyone who says that can't possibly speak for how I think or feel & is doing a huge disservice to a lot of trans folk.

Yeah I don't believe in discriminating against anyone either. Just as we shouldn't discriminate against those who we might not understand or agree with. I think it's fine if certain whites or blacks or whatever wanna 'stick to their kind' 'or have pride in their heritage. Everyone has that right to their own mind & way of life, as long as they aren't harassing or attacking anyone else.

 

[Eligiu]

It doesn't count when your clients say your hot

It's not just clients, it's people on apps as well, friends, guys I play sport with. It simply can't be helped. We can't all look like me, it just would not be fair.

But interestingly actually it matters a lot to clients what I look like because people who pay high rates for escorting are paying for someone who looks good. That's how you get away with charging so much, duh. They're hardly going to come and see me if I'm ugly lmao.

 

[Eligiu]

I think Eligiu is essentially correct, here. I wouldn't sleep with a transitioned trans woman and I accept that that is a transphobic preference. I wouldn't let a man give me fellatio, either, even if I closed my eyes and couldn't see him, and I suppose that's homophobic. And lots of people might not want to sleep with people of this or that race, which is racist. Or obese people, which is fat-phobic. But beyond the semantics I don't actually think this is a great sin. There are important and reasonable public efforts to limit discrimination in employment, housing, etc., but if you only want to sleep with blonde men with blue eyes who were born that way, whatever, it's your personal sex life and there's no reason you should feel compelled to sleep with (or date, kiss, whatever) someone you don't want to just so you can avoid a label you find uncomfortable.

I think the ideal version of myself would not care about any of this and would be willing to love anybody, no matter what they looked like or what gender/path-to-current-gender/sexual orientation/etc. they were. But I'm not, I have specific and uncomfortably shallow attractions, and frankly it's not something I am going to change.

Wow, a rational person.

See this guy realises that I don't actually have a problem with anyone having whatever preference they have, to each their own.

But it's dishonest to deny that one has transphobic beliefs when one excludes all trans people from a dating or sex pool, *because they are trans*

Genital preferences of penis and vagina are perfectly reasonable. But when you exclude post op trans people by being negative about surgery results (which again, most post op people seem pretty happy with) then that is transphobic.

That opinion alone doesn't necessarily make someone a transphobe unless they also don't view a trans person as their identified gender and instead maintain that they are their birth gender. One can get around this by stating that trans men are genetically female, but have male gender identities (and generally also male gender presentations).

On the scale of transphobia, not wanting to fuck a trans person because they are trans is actually pretty minor. It's like a 1-2/10. We're pretty used to it.

But it's just ridiculous that people can partake in such spectacular mental gymnastics like going so far as to start making up statements that the trans person in the discussion never said, never providing any proof of those statements when asked, and continually misrepresentating what was stated and that person's beliefs as well as deciding that cisgender people suddenly are the arbiters of what is and isn't transphobic.

Next, white people in the 1950s civil justice era in the US decide what is and isn't racist.

This guy admits he has transphobic beliefs and I don't even dislike him! In fact I actually respect him for owning his bigotry and I'm genuinely impressed that he says in an ideal world he wouldn't be like that. But he, at least, doesn't camoflauge as an ally then spout off transphobic stuff out of nowhere.

This whole thing hasn't even been about the preference. It's been about cis inability to accept their bigotry.

Just own it.

Thanks for actually taking the time to read everything man, if more cis people were like you then we wouldn't have as many issues.

 

[Eligiu]

I'm not talking about any one individual here so nobody has to justify anything to me.

I am talking about ALL of as a whole. And it's not just this thread. It's rampant everywhere. In real life and on here.

People can call ( or not call ) out whatever they choose but nobody is listening with the proper ears. Just like they don't look at things through proper eyes.

We don't mix. We never will. And people that think we can are usually only right for a short time. Put us in a room together for a longer period of time and it never works. It never does. We just can't think beyond our capabilities whether it was how we were raised, or how we were educated, or how we decide to look at the world regardless of what we were taught. It's just the way we are. We can't help it.

And to think we can go on the internet and sway anyone's thinking is just pure fantasy.

I've had forum members and people on other social media tell me that me talking about it online actually changed their opinion and stance on the issue.

So it does happen.

And even if I change the mind of one single person (though it's been more than that, and some of them have apologised for their offensive statements and asked how to improve themselves) then I'll have done something good.

I can't turn this off, it's actually part of the autism. Social justice is my main interest in life and it bothers me seeing injustice.

Saying you can't change people's mind is something that people who don't want the status quo to change always say. 'itll never work' or 'dont do it like that' well maybe the people I argue with won't change, but maybe (like how one person just commented) they actually agree with my point of view and learn something.

You saying it is fantasy is basically telling me to give up, but why should I? I'm not being aggressive or insulting, I've explained things. Unless the issue is hearing someone advocate for this issue which is the source of the discomfort and I don't know what to tell you about that but that seems a lot like when white Americans tell black Americans not to riot. If a trans person calling out transphobia makes you uncomfortable then there's a reason for that. Most people who have no issue with trans people wouldn't bat an eye and would side with the trans person (not saying you have to, but this is what I've noticed having lots of trans accepting cis friends).

I could just do nothing, then we really would be here in a complete echo chamber where no one posting seems to understand that other people live with social connections who do not hold the same type of opinion as they do. It might come as a shock, but none of my friends would say anything like what gets said on here and would make fun of the people saying it.

But they feel emboldened by the fact that it's endorsed by some staff, not just tolerated.

It would be my belief that staff members have an obligation to not contribute to the maligning of a group already as a Fifth Column due to their significantly higher levels of substance use as a result of minority stress, and refrain from saying anything which would encourage more negativity, but it does appear that I'm mistaken. I'd just spare a thought to how members of the forum from that minority group would feel seeing staff post comments about their validity and identities and being agreed with by members who then know they can share their negative opinions too.

I mean why do we even need to have continued debates in certain forums about this topic? There's a new one every couple of weeks and it's the same outcome every time. Same people commenting, same opinions. Trans issues are debated more frequently on here than time I spend thinking about my trans status. Like, is it actually constructive at all? Or does it just serve to make that group of forum users so uncomfortable they have all shifted to the discord?

 

[~Winterborn~]

If you can't see the nuance in what I'm saying then that's not my problem. I find that in these conversations, people who can't understand nuance just revert to namecalling. It's unfortunate because there's a rich discussion waiting to make your acquaintance, if you'd get over yourself.

What name calling? I was far more polite in my post than you were in reply. I even went out of my way to specify that I was calling it a bigoted statement rather than calling you a bigot. I know some people just really want to be called names but I'm not into you like that.

Gay people don't have a mental illness, trans people do.

Once again, gender dysphoria is recognised as a mental illness not being transgender. If you don't feel any dissonance between your body and your self image you could be cis or you could have successfully transitioned.

All you've done this entire thread is motte-and-bailey:

The motte-and-bailey fallacy (named after the motte-and-bailey castle) is a form of argument and an informal fallacy where an arguer conflates two positions that share similarities, one modest and easy to defend (the "motte") and one much more controversial (the "bailey"). The arguer advances the controversial position, but when challenged, they insist that they are only advancing the more modest position. Upon retreating to the motte, the arguer can claim that the bailey has not been refuted (because the critic refused to attack the motte) or that the critic is unreasonable (by equating an attack on the bailey with an attack on the motte).

In this case the motte is that you just don't want to have sex with trans men the bailey is stuff like this:

Gender dysphoria is a psychiatric condition. Trans people are not en par with the other disenfranchised peoples, like gays and bisexuals. They have a mental illness and it shows very clearly in conversations like this, where they think the world is out to get them because we won't sleep with them or support their delusions. The academics are trying to rewrite our social norms to fit the delusions of 1 in 16,000 people.

But it's very clear that these people are not mentally well. They flip out whenever you don't cater 100% to them or support their delusion...

When I ask you things like what do you mean by trans people not being on par with other disenfranchised groups? or call out that you're implying that gender dysphoria makes you delusional you retreat to "I'm just saying it's incorrect to call me transphobic because I won't have sex with a female vagina" for the umpteenth time. It's unfortunate because there's actually a rich discussion waiting to make your acquaintance.

 

[Eligiu]

@Foreigner my man, how many times must I repeat the fact that I have zero inclination or want or desire for you to fuck my vagina? I have said the opposite numerous times now, yet all you can do is claim I flipped out over it?

I. Don't. Care.

You are transphobic though and it's funny that another guy right here after reading this thread actually agrees with me and admits his position on it is transphobic.

So why can't you? The world's not gonna fall in, you won't die, it doesn't even make you a shitty person all round. It's just admitting you have a shitty take on an issue.

@Winterborn is correct. Your use of logical fallacies has been outstanding. The strategy of simply making up things that I said and attacking that because you don't want to attack the arguement is top tier. However I still await proof by way of quotes of where I made any of those 6ish statements you said I did. It's very interesting that you quoted the entire rest of my threads and broke every point down, but with the falsified statements there was never an accompanying quote.

Truly a mystery for the ages.

 

[Jabberwocky]

I wouldn't sleep with a transitioned trans woman and I accept that that is a transphobic preference. I wouldn't let a man give me fellatio, either, even if I closed my eyes and couldn't see him, and I suppose that's homophobic. And lots of people might not want to sleep with people of this or that race, which is racist. Or obese people, which is fat-phobic.

i don't think preferences are phobic if they are not based in hate.

my preference not to have sex with women is not because i hate women, or am homophobic, its just not my preference.

'phobia' connotes dislike or prejudice in this context. sexual preferences aren't rooted in prejudice, they are rooted in some deep psychological processes that we have little control over and roughly translate to getting your pussy wet/dick hard. sorry to be so crude, but that's the long and short of it imo.

and using 'phobia' to denote a sexual preference diminishes the meaning of the word. i don't want to automatically think 'oh what someone didn't sleep with you,' if i hear about transphobia, because that would mean i was initially unsympathetic when hearing about the real cases of hate crime that occur. its watering down of language and it actually harms the people who suffer from such things.

 

[Eligiu]

^^that is why I did say that the transphobic preference issue is a 1-2/10 on the scale of transphobia.

As a cis person I'm not sure your conceptualization of what is and isn't transphobia and whether something should be considered that is entirely relevant.

I'm not lesbian, I don't tell lesbians what constitutes anti lesbian sentiment. That's their prerogative.

I'm not black, I'm not going to tell black people what is anti-blackness. That's theirs to define.

Trans people define transphobia because we are the target of the behaviour and detrimental opinions. Cis people don't get to decide what is and isn't to get out scott free from their prejudiced opinions *because they don't think it is prejudiced*. When YOU are the person being told those things, then your opinion holds some weight. When you are a member of the majority group expressing those beliefs, you don't get to make a call on whether or not what you said was offensive and prejudice.

I actually struggle to see why cis people think they have any skin in the game in deciding what meets the bar for transphobia. The comments aren't directed at you, it actually seems like what cis people actually care about is not being labelled transphobic for as long as possible while they hold increasingly prejudiced opinions. That's the only logical reason to me.

Cis people really have a very exaggerated sense of how importance and necessary their opinions on trans issues, rights, and lives are. The actual reality is that those opinions count for very little, aside from the medical professionals we are required to see to get the approvals we need. Trans people just eventually stop caring what cis people think once they reach a certain point in that transition, usually half a decade or so by the time they realise they no longer require the approval of cis society to be valid.

Yet I fail to see a more hotly, more often debated issue, moreso than trans people generally talk about these things.

Is any real benefit derived from constantly debating trans identities, validity, and legitimacy constantly? It's an interesting and thought provoking topic for the devil's advocates to swarm in and give the most controversial of controversial opinions, while trans forum members actively avoid engaging in any of these topics in order to prevent harm to their mental health. The conspicuous absence of more than one singular trans person (and notably, a binary one who passes at that) in any of the threads while the trans forum members have all migrated onto the discord says more than I need to say.

But yeah, the sexual preference not being transphobic is because it waters down legitimately awful experiences (many of which I've had right here on this forum because I made myself a target, Jesus Christ I am clearly the world's biggest goddamn idiot, fuck), and the people who maintain that belief are engaging in every effort to make the forum a safer place for trans people.

 

[Jabberwocky]

Is any real benefit derived from constantly debating trans identities, validity, and legitimacy constantly?

you seem to think so as you bring it up at every possible opportunity. this thread started cos you brought it into another thread.

we are on a forum. nobody thinks their opinions matter. or they shouldn't. not here. its fun to debate and every member has a right to. in people's professional lives their opinions hold weight, but on here unless someone has demonstrated expertise that provide compelling evidence of better than lay knowledge of a topic, every opinion is as valid as every other.

 

[~Winterborn~]

i don't think preferences are phobic if they are not based in hate.

Calling it transphobia might be strong, however if there is no one in a group you are otherwise attracted to that you can imagine yourself sleeping with it's probably a result of prejudice. If you're attracted to men but can't find a single black man you would have sex with that's the result of prejudice.

 

[Eligiu]

you seem to think so as you bring it up at every possible opportunity. this thread started cos you brought it into another thread.

we are on a forum. nobody thinks their opinions matter. or they shouldn't. not here. its fun to debate and every member has a right to. in people's professional lives their opinions hold weight, but on here unless someone has demonstrated expertise that provide compelling evidence of better than lay knowledge of a topic, every opinion is as valid as every other.

I was referring to CEPS, and that was clear enough.

Actually that isn't how it works. Cis people have zero expertise on trans lives, the trans experience, trans discrimination, trans integrity. You are unable to, because you are not trans. Frankly you will never understand it, and that's fine because many people won't. But as I said, trans people all reach a point where we just stop caring about what cis people think about any part of our experiences, because they struggle to comprehend even the most basic aspects of it due to their lives as cis people being so fundamental different. The reason I just have fun with transphobes now is because I don't care. The opinions of cis people carry zero weight in my life at all, why would they? What could they possibly offer me when they come out with another poorly approached arguement about some element of transness? Nothing. There is zero gain for me. So they tell me I'm a woman - lol, I'd like to see them try that in person. So they think I'm mentally ill - I am, but not for those reasons. So they think I'm delusional - I know I'm not. So they think I have an obligation to disclose on the very first date - don't care, probably won't have a second one at my rate so hardly relevant. So they think surgery looks bad - well I can piss standing up with it so I win. So they think we all look like weird freaks - not the trans people I know. So they say we can't play sport as well as cis men - can't undo what I did and have the proof of. So what? Like why should I spare any thought to it? You can't quantify transness and prove you have 'compelling evidence' of it when you can't even tolerate a trans person so conservative that his own community takes issue with him. Like even that is apparently too much. No, you need actual trans extreme right wing panderer Blair White, who in exchange for acceptance by the cis overlords she so desperately wants to become, sells out all other trans people.

You haven't lived it. You haven't even come close. You don't even know what 'horrible transphobia' is, unlike me who cops it left right and centre. Where is your knowledge on actual trans issues that we face in a way which isn't directly related to how cis people are minutely affected by the mere existence of trans people? The wait times for transition, the issues with dating in terms of the emotional strain, the danger, the cost of surgery, sex work as a common profession, workplace discrimination, housing discrimination, overincarceration, massive rates of substance use disorders, minority stress, PTSD as a result of being trans, physical and sexual violence, name change laws, bathroom bills, family loss, homelessness.

But every topic I see on this forum is just a group of cis people trans bashing in an echo chamber with endorsement from staff, while trans members thank cis friends for posting in their on their behalf because they don't want to open themselves up for vitriol and invalidation. Each and everyone, it's never about important trans issues, it's the same discussion over and over again - are trans people valid? Are trans people who they say they are? What is a man and what is a woman? Should trans people have to disclose to everyone that they are trans?

Like honestly what is the net *gain* from having those debates. Plenty of people around the world would refuse to even engage in those topics out of principle. Who is being helped by having those discussions and who is being harmed? Because all I see is cis people having fun feeling like their view is the popular majority opinion, but if any of you came to the discord that wouldn't last long at all. And trans people use the forums less and prefer the discord for that reason. So trans people are being actively negatively affected to the point of disengaged with a harm reduction forum due to how prevalent this issue is.

I honestly just don't see the need to constantly have those debates unless you're trying to prove them all in favour of trans people not being legitimate, or that discussing the actual validity of a group of people is so blase to all of you that you don't even consider that people discussing our validity is what gets us killed. Debating the right of oppressed minorities to exist free from oppression is super fun, if you're not a member of that group. Very daring too.

I mean, why even pretend that cis people have any opinions more than a layman opinion about what the experience of transitioning gender is like?

And I really don't think it is really up to cis people to decide whether or not trans people are valid. Gender dysphoria is accepted as a disorder which causes mental distress. Transitioning has been repeatedly shown to be a far more effective treatment than conversion therapy. Modern psychology and psychiatry are in general agreement, more or less. They made the decision without your input because it wasn't relevant. It never will be.

Can't you all take a break from trans people over in CEPS for a couple of weeks and debate whether gay and lesbian people have any right to exist and whether they are valid? Surely that should spark the same fierce lust for debate.

 

[Jabberwocky]

however if there is no one in a group you are otherwise attracted to that you can imagine yourself sleeping with it's probably a result of prejudice.

can you decide who you are attracted to?

prejudice is learned, sexual attraction is not. it is based on evolutionary cues that we are barely aware of.

 

[Las Veghost grower]

So I’m homophobic if I don’t want to have sex with another man ? Seems unfair and very bigoted

 

[Nurse Ratched]

This thread is closed for maintainence for the next 24 hours. Gives us time to all cool off a bit and revisit some of these posts.

Some of us are getting damn close to blua violations and I for one am getting a bit tired of the innuendos and veiled sarcasm that is going on.

Tune in tomorrow.........same bat place. Same bat time and let's see if we can discuss this topic without all the passive/aggressive remarks.

 

[arrall]

Given the hostility on all sides in this thread, it will remain closed. It is very clear that no good would come from re opening it.