Opioids Tramadol Toxicity?

[arthunter888]

I'm a once-a-week recreational user of Oxycodone and Opana. My tolerance is around 20mg oxy for a light nod. These have been scarce recently, so I tried tramadol yesterday for the first time.

I chewed up 50mg, then 2 hours later chewed up another 50mg (no tylenol). The buzz felt pretty good, mood lift and especially the tingly waves in my lower spine. At random points I also briefly felt "pins and needles" in my leg and arm unlike other opiates.

I felt fine while high, but it is the next day and I feel a slight hangover. I have a weird sensation in the back of my brain. It is like a mix of tenderness and small amount of pain, maybe comparable to a mild headache. Almost like the feeling you get the day after an eighth of shrooms. It is nothing major, but is not pleasant.

JW if this is an indication of neuro-toxicity (e.g. serotonin toxicity)? The fact that it works on several receptor-systems makes me question it's brain-"friendliness" at doses of 100-200mg.

A side note, how would one maximize it's mu opiate effects and minimize its SSRI and NRI effects. Slow dosing? Enzyme inhibition?

 

[Mr Blonde]

You would want to induce CYP2D6 to produce more of the metabolite M1-tramadol, but CYP2D6 inhibitors are fairly rare apart from alcohol and St Johns Wort.

I have never seen any studies done on neurotoxicity of tramadol, would be interesting to see what they show. I imagine the serotonin effects are similar to an SSRI, so perhaps not much in the way of neurotoxicity?

 

[hydrobliss]

ok just to clarify... if your tolerance is low enough that 20mg of oxy puts you into a nod... wtf are you touching opana for?? lol

secondly.... tramadol IME can be nasty shit.... it is certainly nice to have around for the occasional withdrawal cause it does help... but I have taken fairly high doses a couple of times and I just dont feel right for 1-2 days afterwards... I wouldnt worry to much, it just seems to be a common effect of tramadol on the body in higher doses

 

[arthunter888]

You would want to induce CYP2D6 to produce more of the metabolite M1-tramadol, but CYP2D6 inhibitors are fairly rare apart from alcohol and St Johns Wort.

I have never seen any studies done on neurotoxicity of tramadol, would be interesting to see what they show. I imagine the serotonin effects are similar to an SSRI, so perhaps not much in the way of neurotoxicity?

How much St John's Wort would I have to take to increase the opiod effects and decrease the serotonin and norepenephrine effects of tramadol? Also, if inducing CYP2D6 is not effective, what about inhibiting the enzymes responsible for creating the serotonin and norepinephrine effects? What would I do in this case?

 

[edgewise1]

Wouldn't SJW lower the seizure threshold a good bit? Or am I thinking of another herbal?

 

[BlueberryfishY]

Tramadol is pretty bad for you i would steer clear of it if i we're you.

 

[dimethyltrypt]

I've never, ever found it to be even slightly fun.

 

[dimethyltrypt]

And yeah, sorry for the repost, but if 20mg can put you into a slight nod you shouldn't go anywhere near opana. At least to preserve your low tolerance, and at most so you dont OD. Shits dangerous to people with no tolerance.

 

[Tromps]

Uhh I dunno if this helps.. but grapefuit juice potenates tramadol pretty well. That's prolly all around though and wouldn't reduce the SSRI properties I'm guessing.

 

[Mr Blonde]

^ It will inhibit the other enzymes that metabolize it, possibly leading to more being metabolized by CYP2D6... though I'm guessing there is a limit to how much of it can be O-demethylated by CYP2D6, similar to codeine.

How much St John's Wort would I have to take to increase the opiod effects and decrease the serotonin and norepenephrine effects of tramadol? Also, if inducing CYP2D6 is not effective, what about inhibiting the enzymes responsible for creating the serotonin and norepinephrine effects? What would I do in this case?

On second thoughts you probably shouldn't try this as St John's Wort may lower the seizure threshold and lead to complications related to serotonin.

Try drinking one or two beers 45 minutes or so before dosing the tramadol and see if that has an effect, it certainly helps me with codeine.

 

[Jabberwocky]

On second thoughts you probably shouldn't try this as St John's Wort may lower the seizure threshold and lead to complications related to serotonin.

i was just doing some reading on SJW and come to the same conclusion as well; probably best to avoid it incase of seretonin syndrome.

 

[arthunter888]

ok just to clarify... if your tolerance is low enough that 20mg of oxy puts you into a nod... wtf are you touching opana for?? lol

I appreciate your concern, but I am on top of my game when it comes to drugs, not to brag. My original/virgin oxy tolerance was 7.5mg for a nod, so in perspective you can call 20mg a developed tolerance. But if you think its still small in the larger scheme, I did much research on opana before doing it. When I started on it I would use a milligram scale to titrate to the proper dose, starting small. I found that my perfect, nodding dose is currently 5mg of oxymorphone in one snort. The relative potency of two drugs means nothing in the case of equi-potent doses except maybe specific side effects.

Try drinking one or two beers 45 minutes or so before dosing the tramadol and see if that has an effect, it certainly helps me with codeine.

Hopefully adding alcohol would not increase the neurotoxicity of tramadol if there is any, as alcohol is one of the most neurotoxic recreational drugs out there. Also, hopefully it will not 'dirty' the smoothish high I get from tramadol. I think I will try this.

Would it make sense to combine alcohol with grapefruit juice 45min before dosing? This way, I would be inducing CYP2D6 (alcohol), as well as inhibiting CYP3A4 (GFJ). Thus encouraging M1, and discouraging SNRI metabolites simultaneously. That is unless, that grapefruit juice also inhibits CYP2D6 to an extent equal to alcohol's induction. What do you think?

 

[sir_thizzalot]

Well fuck, I didn't know Tramadol really had any chance of being bad for me. I love them and assumed that since they're a weak opioid they really didn't cause any problems side from somebody getting a tolerance(or having a seizure). More reason for me to go grab methadone!

 

[edgewise1]

Guess I'm just confused. I was under the impression that grapefruit juice and tagamet were two very good drugs to use with opiates as they blocked the enzyme responsible for breaking down the opiate and lessening the amout of opiate in the blood. But it seems I read somewhere else that tagamet does not help potentiate tramadol, rather it inhibits it. If this is true, then would gfj also inhibit tramadol?

 

[Moredopamine]

I've taken 550mg with no ill effects--400mg a day is the recommended maximum.

Tramadol is safe if you're using it with caution. It certainly isn't for someone with a high opioid tolerance as Tramadol won't do much at its maximum "400mg limit."

 

[TerminalIsland]

What the op could have had was a mini seizure and not known it.

Sensation in the extremities, pain in the head. Might not have been full on gran-mal, but quite possibly some early warning signs (100mg's is not much at all).

OP, If you are having these side effects after 100mg's, and having such "great" effects on these Micro doses of real opiates, just stick to the real opiates. You will not find much recreation in Tramadol, short of nerve pain relief if you have any to begin with.

I just took 150mg 45mins ago, I woke up in pain as I do every morning, and waiting for them to kick in.

 

[anon1235]

Tramadol that bad? I've got a small hoard of the stuff (got a great deal) but not really experimented as such. I always thought it was a non-opioid but acted like one, and erowid etc showed some nice reports.

Anyways, ill beware the seizure thing. But surely it should go well with something like codeine.

 

[TerminalIsland]

In my experience, tramadol seemed to "get in the way" of other opiates when I want to "party". Since the other opiates relieve my pain too, I go off tram for the period of the binge, then get back on when w/d's start.

There seems to be no 1+1=3 for me, only a 1+1=.5

 

[volp]

I am prescribed tramadol for nerve pain, along with norco. Tramadol is more dangerous than it is effective, at least for me. I wouldn't take more than 8 in a 24 hour period. I was originally told no more than 300mg in 24, then that was changed to 400mg.

 

[El_Toro]

Tramadol is a SERT releasing agent (thus a mild SERT reuptaker) hence there could be a potential for neurotoxicity. Keyword here, "could".

Check this out:

Int J Neurosci. 2004 Aug;114(8):1001-11. Related Articles, Links

Opioid neurotoxicity: comparison of morphine and tramadol in an experimental rat model.

Atici S, Cinel L, Cinel I, Doruk N, Aktekin M, Akca A, Camdeviren H, Oral U.

Department of Anesthesiology & Reanimation, Mersin University School of Medicine, Mersin, Turkey. [email protected]

Histopathologic changes in rat brain due to chronic use of morphine and/or tramadol in progressively increased doses were investigated in this study. Thirty male Wistar rats (180-220 g) were included and divided into three groups. Normal saline (1 ml/kg) was given intraperitoneally as placebo in the control group (n = 10). Morphine group (n = 10) received morphine intraperitoneally at a dose of 4 mg/kg/day for the first 10 days, 8 mg/kg/day between 11-20 days, and 12 mg/kg/day between 21-30 days. The tramadol group (n = 10) received the drug intraperitoneally at doses of 20, 40, and 80 mg/kg/day in the first, second, and the third 10 days of the study, respectively. All rats were decapitated on the 30th day and the brain was removed intact for histology. The presence and the number of red neurons, which are a histologic marker of apoptosis, were investigated in the parietal, frontal, temporal, occipital, entorhinal, pyriform, and hippocampal CA1, CA2, CA3 regions. Red neurons were found in morphine and tramadol groups but not in the control group. The total number of red neurons was not different in morphine and tramadol groups, but the numbers of red neurons were significantly higher in the temporal and occipital regions in tramadol group as compared with the morphine group (p < .05). In conclusion, chronic use of morphine and/or tramadol in increasing doses is found to cause red neuron degeneration in the rat brain, which probably contributes to cerebral dysfunction. These findings should be taken into consideration when chrome use of opioids is indicated.