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to live is to die

hitler did everything he did to try to conquer the world which if i'd been in his shoes probably wouldn't have done anything different
 
^^but there is no evil :)

morals needs to be set or judged somehow; nature has no rules other than the laws of physics and even those may be violated from time to time.

Hitler was not evil, and apparently not even crazy.

think of it back in the cave man days; were you evil if you killed your competitors to survive? No your genes were passed on! Evolution! So back then that cave man, who kills and kills, how could he be evil? especially since it was in his nature. Same thing these days.
 
when a man lies, he murders a part of the world

"The world" is reality, the way things truly are. When a person lies on any level, it diminishes, scars, and/or blurs that reality. It is thus "murdered" because it can never be made whole again, or brought back to the way it was before... Each lie once put out into the universe perpetuates itself and finds new ways to pervade the truth.

these are the pale deaths which men miscall their lives

This cycle we endure is mistakenly thought of as "life" when really from the moment we are born we are working towards death. As we get older our ability to perceive reality and exist in the world we inhabit gets more and more difficult because we continually build our walls higher and higher and before we know it we no longer exist in reality at all, just our own versions of "life" we have constructed... Which in "reality" much closer resembles death.

all this i cannot bare to witness any longer
cannot the kingdom of salvation take me home

This part is completely up to individual interpretation. A religious person could very easily see this as the authors desire to be reunited with God, the ultimate truth, that thing from which reality itself was created. An atheist like myself might see this as some sort of satire or ironic play on words. Any type of "religious salvation", in my eyes, would mean the ultimate betrayal of reality, therefore the real "salvation" would be and is the abandonment of the religious mentality. The mentality that has stricken humanity for centuries and prevented us at every turn from making any progression toward the real truth which is only the comprehension of the world as it really exists.
 
^ more accurate just not the point i tried to make
if you don't believe in evil then good for you i've seen it first hand and it's real there is no other explanation for how someone could be so callous toward another living thing
 
^I've had horrible things done to me that would match your definition of 'evil', all I'm trying to argue is that I think it's unproductive to think of things in that sense because it suggests that some people are full of some sort of innate moral 'wrongness' that we can't do anything about....and I just don't really see what that accomplishes.
 
Ive read mein kampf and I can say in my opinion that hitler didnt think he was wrong in his views, my feeling is that he felt he had a greater clarity then the rest of human society and this 'clarity' justified him to commit atrosities. Human nature isnt just one facet but is a complicated mix of various emotions and feeling all tied together by base instincts. For instance, hitler commited terrible, brutal acts but was also well read and educated and also a resonable artist. Surely then the german people of that time are also evil for supporting such acts? Of course they wernt an evil race, they were scared, economically wasted and desperate (something which tge allied forces were in major part responsible for with the treaty of versaille). Their perception of good and evil was distorted by their suffering and the powerful personality of adolf hitler. Id like to make clear that I personally dont share his views or any fascist views, before someone starts the flaming!lol I just think we all have to be careful not to fall into the trap of thinking that the universe works to our personal perception of right and wrong just because it suits us to think of things that way. Tge human mind loves absolutes but existance doesnt work that way, instead it constantly evolves and changes. In my view, we can only move forward by constantly challenging the 'absolutes' of yesterday and questioning our own nature. 'lecture' over.lol hope I havnt alienated too many people.:-)
 
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he was also a messed up dude who slept on benches and was homeless. I think that contributed a lot to his views, especially when seeing the jewish population doing well.
 
RobotRipping said:
he was also a messed up dude who slept on benches and was homeless. I think that contributed a lot to his views, especially when seeing the jewish population doing well.
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cant argue with that.lol getting a dose of mustad gas during world war 1 proberly left him with a few issues as well! Im honestly not trying to defend to the man, he was awfully, terribly wrong in his views and actions. I just have a problem with good and evil.
 
Reality can be read in so many ways... Objectivity works up to a point. There are also different ways of understanding different things. I use different methods to assess my emotional well-being than my physical well-being, even though they are interconnected.

About the lying part... I think that the biggest "sin" is to lie to one's self. I think ultimately life is about self-realization and when we don't fully inhabit who we are we are cheating ourselves and others.

I, too, have lied to protect loved ones from the worry and fear that comes with, say, drug use and abuse. This, however, has at the same time robbed us from obtaining a more intimate relationship and from enriching our lives. Parents who think their children do not do drugs when in fact they do may continue to live in the illusion that drug use is always only bad, and only done by "bad people". Their family is immune. Pshaw! Would perhaps a beautiful trip report enrich them? Would perhaps knowing that EVERYONE is flawed allow them to forgive themselves? Is it even fair to protect someone from a bad experience? Perhaps that bad experience will make them a "better" person.

And I am using good and bad mostly between quotes because I think that there really isn't such a thing, and really what it comes down to is mostly what makes us comfortable and uncomfortable... And there are some general rules true for most. But also things not always as clear cut.

I am personally grateful for most of the bullshit I've gone through. and I have found that what most turns me on about ppl is their being true. Knowledge is power, and those who take it away from you are hurting you.

This coming from someone with big-ass scars from a relationship with an active heroin addict who then became an addict herself when he went to jail. So she experienced all the crazy lying on his part and then was "forced" to lie herself. And part of why I don't wanna do it anymore is because I don't wanna lie and part of why I do wanna do it is because this world is full of pain and sometimes even too much happiness and it's so nice to be able to numb it at times. But, again, that is slowly killing me and the people around me.

I hope this makes sense. I'm in that phase of withdrawal where I'm super-emotional and not sure if I make sense.
 
Well said DragonLady23 I couldnt have put it better myself and I think I understand what you mean in the last part I think. Sometimes the world is too vibrant or too dark or just too much on many levels and feeling 'numb' even for a little while is a relief. Not always a healthy way to think but yet another facet of human nature.
 
i agree lying to yourself is the worst, not much of a sin though. Just bad for your psyche.

The world is amazingly vibrant, intense, dark and beautiful. That is life and what makes me feel so alive sometimes.
 
bunge said:
Ive read mein kampf and I can say in my opinion that hitler didnt think he was wrong in his views, my feeling is that he felt he had a greater clarity then the rest of human society and this 'clarity' justified him to commit atrosities. Human nature isnt just one facet but is a complicated mix of various emotions and feeling all tied together by base instincts. For instance, hitler commited terrible, brutal acts but was also well read and educated and also a resonable artist. Surely then the german people of that time are also evil for supporting such acts? Of course they wernt an evil race, they were scared, economically wasted and desperate (something which tge allied forces were in major part responsible for with the treaty of versaille). Their perception of good and evil was distorted by their suffering and the powerful personality of adolf hitler. Id like to make clear that I personally dont share his views or any fascist views, before someone starts the flaming!lol I just think we all have to be careful not to fall into the trap of thinking that the universe works to our personal perception of right and wrong just because it suits us to think of things that way. Tge human mind loves absolutes but existance doesnt work that way, instead it constantly evolves and changes. In my view, we can only move forward by constantly challenging the 'absolutes' of yesterday and questioning our own nature. 'lecture' over.lol hope I havnt alienated too many people.:-)
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That's my take. He had a personal score to settle with Jewish art dealers who didn't buy his art but if you can manage Mein Kampf (my favourite book to do during a game of charades by the way) he actually believed what he was doing would benefit society (his society only though). His writing (if you can call it that is even stranger than Hagel) but you know he loved his pets so not all bad! My original point being that if you believe what your doing is fundamentally wrong (and your not mentally disturbed) you can't do a huge amount of damage. Stalin and Lenin are troubling, Stalin was a brute, pure and simple, Lenin was an ideologue who didn't seem to mind what damage he did to his people as long as the ideology was pure. Evil? Who knows? I think that individuals can be evil, when they know what they're doing is wrong but get a thrill from it. This ranges from some animal raping a vulnerable kid, to a banker selling a dodgy bunch of CDOs on knowing that someone will lose everything but he gets his bonus.
But Hollywood costumes was good so I'm happy!
 
Life is all of those things, I can understand how people can be overwhelmed by it sometimes. Kind of like looking at the sun through a telescope, beautiful to see but look at it directly and it will fucking blind you! ;-)
 
Cheers captaincaveman im glad someone else is with me on the hitler point. It was getting real lonely with my arse out in the wind there! The collaspe of the soviet union is a great example of human nature overiding ideology. Capitalism kinda works because it follows the natural human instinct to want more. Although im aware ive massively oversimplified it!. Was Hollywood Costumes as camp as promised?lol
 
RobotRipping said:
it's nature my friend, watch animal planet or the planet earth series. nature is cruel, not evil.
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A flaw in your argument is the concept of spite. Nature is cruel, but humans are uniquely capable of spite. Which not only defies nature, but in fact might be evil itself.

No animal in nature harms themselves or another just to "get back" at another animal is a simple way of putting it. Spite is uniquely human, and perhaps uniquely capable of being "evil" as a result, because it is a human construct. In fact spite might be purely evil. To harm yourself just so another doesn't have what they have? To hurt someone just because you are jealous of what they possess? No real logic behind it. Why shouldn't someone else have what they have?

Just food for thought. Not saying I'm even right, I welcome arguments against this point. Its just something to think about.


Its also oversimplifying things to say "Human nature is to want more" because this could not be further from my nature. I like helping people, not taking things from them. I am able to be "content" and not always after more.

I believe this is an issue lots of philosophers fail to take into account.

That perhaps there can be more than one human nature that is dependent on who you are? I think a lot of peoples arguments for/against certain "philosophies" make these sweeping generalizations. "Its human nature!" Really, have you been every human ever? Perhaps different humans want different things and think differently than you?
 
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Like you said DooMMood I did oversymplify the idea of human nature. What I should have said is base human nature is to want more. We create all the other concepts to enable us to live fairly contently in large society and the whole idea of living in large societys as we do today is completly opposed to our base nature, we lack the hardware to be content and harmonious with all people all the time. Good and evil, right and wrong are all concepts needed to keep our large groups together. If the infrastructure of civilisation fell apart tomorrow you would see a big change in peoples general nature. Sure people would still have that concept of good and evil and from that a sense of right and wrong but the boundries would become very blurred very quickly.
 
Although I have to admit your comment on spite is an interesting one, gonna have to mull that over I think. My gut reaction though is its again a question of perception, spite is how it feels if your one side of things but could be seen by the otherside as justice.
 
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