Bupe those who eventually got off bupe.. do you now consider yourself "sober"?!

[Jabberwocky]

well, do you!?

you know how some consider methadone/bupe to still be a narcotic, which it is, but to us opiate/heroin junkies we all consider it clean and say we feel completely sober. well, is it true? I have not be "clean" in so many god damn years that I dont even know what to write but I do now I have been "clean" and on bupe for the past 4-5 months and have been feeling great.

of course, I still get those people who look at me as if I am on a drug all day/everyday; my father being one of those people. they consider me to be far from sober but here I am thinking I am right w/ everyone else - SOBER AS A MOFO!

so to those people out there who actually kicked subs/bupe and are now taking NOTHING - do you actually feel different? and if so, what is the difference?

 

[JM357]

Honestly, my thought is: why does it matter wither we fit into a label or not? (not trying to be rude, and maybe that does or doesn't go without saying, but it can be difficult online where you don't hear tone of voice etc.)

What I mean is- what matters to me is how my life is effected (how do I feel? how functional am I? how is my health?) by a treatment as opposed to trying to gauge if I'm "clean." As most people here probably know, in some countries they have experimented with HAT (heroin addicted therapy) and the results have actually been really good in terms of crime, employment, health, well-being and believe it or not eventually even getting off the medication (most of the original participants of the swiss heroin study have gotten clean or have switched successfully to taking methadone daily). They are allowed 2-3 shots per day and a take home of heroin mixed with juice for oral consumption (mixed with juice obviously to prevent it being IVed) and the dosage allowed from the shots I think is up to 300mgs of pure diamorphine. So if it is a success in the sense that they are now not dying, comitting crimes, are sucessfully employed does it really matter if they use?

Now I've heard usually the definition of "clean" is only taking RX medications exactly as prescribed from a doctor you have been truly honest with. Now under that definition would that mean that someone on the heroin clinic who is getting it under medical supervision is technically clean? If it is, even though I don't care about the label, I will admit it is the ultimate loophole.

 

[Jabberwocky]

I am w/ you 100% w/ that, man. but its always something I thought of; people tell me "no way" or "I just dont know". well, maybe I dont but god damn I feel happy/good about life and everything and then some has changed for the better, so fuck everyone else.

but like you said, I really dont care what others may think.

 

[cdigital]

I'd rather be dependent on bupe than addicted to opies. Fuck chasing a truly sober life devoid of all chemicals that some arbitrary force in your life dictated. Honestly I feel more off without my morning coffee and nicotine than the 0.125mg bupe.

Humans are dependent on food, water, sleep, shelter. One more thing, easily obtainable, that keeps your life in check is no different than blood pressure or cholesterol pills. If the zombie apocalypse comes the ppl on bupe maintenance will still fend better than diabetics, obese people, and hypertension folks :D

 

[Zerwas]

Well I was never addicted to H or other high potent opiates but have taken the wide range of lower potent ones over about 6 years now and am currently still on 0,5mg of Bupe a day and would definitely not consider myself sober despite the low dose. When I kicked last year I really felt normal again after about 2 weeks. Buprenorphine still causes a lot of things even if you don't feel anything from it, which is not the case for me btw, I always feel my dose start taking effects.
It still supresses feelings and your sex-drive etc. The difference between being on Bupe and really sober (I would never call someone on Bupe sober because he/she is on a high potent partial agonist opioid), is massive and I am looking forward to feel real joy and even sadness again.

A good example is music appreciation. After quitting, hearing good music sober almost felt like being on MDMA, it was so emotionally powerful.

 

[JM357]

As far as the sex drive thing goes- if you are on opioids regularly your testosterone is probably suppressed. HRT will fix this- I usually am on it but am off right now so I can recover sperm production, have a sample frozen, and start back on HRT (taking androgens essentially cripples your sperm but is reversable). It helps with A LOT of the not feeling normal. I think this should be an option looked into for every patient (men w/testosterone- not an expert on HRT for women (I think it is now less common in women than men) but a doctor (endocrinologist or maybe gynecologist) should be) and discussed.

 

[bdomihizayka]

Do I feel different? YES! VERY DIFFERENT! I was on 2-4mg of subs for a year and recently jumped off and life is so much better. I have a sex drive again (was on 200mg test c/ week before and during sub so test wasn't the issue), I have emotions which I never even knew i lost.... I have so much drive and perseverance whereas on the subs I was just meh. I feel SO much better completely sober.

Screw the stigma of hairpsplitting the definition of what is and isn't sober and just go down the path you'd like best.

 

[Zerwas]

Screw the stigma of hairpsplitting the definition of what is and isn't sober and just go down the path you'd like best.

These are very true words. I just wanted to share my opinion on the subject but ultimatively it does not matter.
Congratultions on being clean! I'm gonna take this as a motivation

 

[hydr0m0rph]

I feel that if sub helps you stay off dope, and you have more trouble without it, then F*CK what others think. You are light years ahead of being a junkie!!
I just got back on sub, after more than 6 weeks completely free of all opiates.. why?? because I wasn't feeling like myself.. I was avoiding friends, had no energy, no motivation, etc etc.
I now feel like myself again.. I really believe that some people are either naturally deficient in some areas (dopamine, endorphins?) or after years of abuse, our brains are just not the same.. and it becomes very difficult to function normally without them.

I'm not happy about being on something again, but this is the situation I am now in. I have to make the best choice I can with whats in front of me. And honestly, I'd rather do my 1mg of bupe every morning, and live a normal life, than struggle thru years of PAWS (possibly) Not really even sure if I will ever be back to normal. And I tried really hard.. pushed myself to the breaking point.. excercised so hard.. ate right.. I did everything I could to get back to myself without anything.

I think for people like me, it may be the best route.. of course, thats a decision that is very personal. I made my decision, and I know people will say I gave up, but I don't see it that way. I had to go on with life, and can't afford to be the way I was for a long time, I just don't have that luxury.. to each his own. Do what you think is right.

 

[JM357]

One theory I have when it comes to getting off of all opioids is that we often jump off at way too high of a dose. For example, with subs- the 20-40x the strength of morphine thing, while not entirely true due to its agonist/antagonist properties making it have a diminishing rate of returns (if it was still true at higher doses then at 8mgs you'd have an equivalent of 140-280mgs of morphine which would be enough to hold just about any habit out there other than some extremes (it would be more than enough for someone coming off 80-100mgs of methadone yet in general it isn't a good idea to switch until you are down to 30-40mgs a day)), at lower doses it probably does become true at some point- I think the original tests were at the 200mcg level meaning 200mcgs would equal 4-8mgs of morphine. But then according to Beckitt-Renser who says you aren't supposed to cut up the strips at all because the chemical may not be evenly distributed, you are supposed to come off a 2mg dose (the smallest suboxone they make) and this is the dose doctors often have patients come off (even if it is true that the strips aren't evenly distributed, and I've never had a problem with braking them into peices as small as 8ths, there still would be a solution- break it down into water in an IU100 or multiple IU 100s and take a fraction of the total liquid). IMHO 2mgs is WAY to large of a dose to come off; by comparison at the methadone clinic I went to before they had people get down to 1mg of oral methadone before stopping (there advice was to keep tapering to that point) which would probably be live a dose of 0.5mgs of IV morphine.

If I do taper off of suboxone some day I plan on going as far as I can in tapering (it would be better to taper more than needed than to jump off too soon) and literally will probably taper to 10-20mcgs a day (maybe too low, but why not? once you are at the point of getting down to 100mcgs a day then 1mg literally lasts 10 days- so 1 8mg sub would last me 80 days at 100mcgs and more as it gets lower). I think that by going to extremely low doses gradually would be a lot better. I think Beckett-Renser wants people to jump off at 2mgs a day because they know you will still get pretty sick, relapse a good % of patients, and have them end up back on it.

Now, not sure if I will ever taper completely off opioids as I do have pain issues, also people theorize maybe the brain never completely returns to normal or opioid addicts have an endorphin deficincy. The most important thing to me is functionality but just a thought.

 

[whateveryouwill]

i have been off bupe for 3 months about and was on it for 6 years. the last 3-4 years i was on about 1mg/24hrs...

being on bupe yes u are still using opiates - subs DO feel good to take. but hey, some are better off on bupe than not. they dont cause nodding or anything like that. the euphoria is VERY limited.

idk how much u are taking but wean down to 2mgs as quickly as possible.

hey man as long are u functioning and happy thats all that matters. the four most important Drs of the 20th century who pioneered much of the medical field - 2 of them were cocaine and morphine addicts.. not saying u should use cocaine and morphine lol because obviously u have proven u cant handle them responsibly. haha. but my point is, if u are contributing to the human race and ur life is going forward - thats what counts.

but facts are facts, u are on opiates. what i think u need to get over is the labels u allow society to attach onto ur emotional responses. who gives a flying fart tard what society is thinking of u. u worrying like that will only hold u back from progressing. ur not alone in that thought process one bit, majority of people think like that. but let me say this - people who are makign a difference in this world, people like Elon Musk, they arent worrying about that type of shit because there are more important things to think about. and yes u can stop worrying about stupid shit like that, just cut the thought off at the roots.

 

[Jabberwocky]

why drop down to 2MG's if I have no problem using them? I legit will be on them the rest of my life. well, maybe a little something but I may try to drop eventually.

 

[SKR]

One theory I have when it comes to getting off of all opioids is that we often jump off at way too high of a dose. For example, with subs- the 20-40x the strength of morphine thing, while not entirely true due to its agonist/antagonist properties making it have a diminishing rate of returns (if it was still true at higher doses then at 8mgs you'd have an equivalent of 140-280mgs of morphine which would be enough to hold just about any habit out there other than some extremes (it would be more than enough for someone coming off 80-100mgs of methadone yet in general it isn't a good idea to switch until you are down to 30-40mgs a day)), at lower doses it probably does become true at some point- I think the original tests were at the 200mcg level meaning 200mcgs would equal 4-8mgs of morphine. But then according to Beckitt-Renser who says you aren't supposed to cut up the strips at all because the chemical may not be evenly distributed, you are supposed to come off a 2mg dose (the smallest suboxone they make) and this is the dose doctors often have patients come off (even if it is true that the strips aren't evenly distributed, and I've never had a problem with braking them into peices as small as 8ths, there still would be a solution- break it down into water in an IU100 or multiple IU 100s and take a fraction of the total liquid). IMHO 2mgs is WAY to large of a dose to come off; by comparison at the methadone clinic I went to before they had people get down to 1mg of oral methadone before stopping (there advice was to keep tapering to that point) which would probably be live a dose of 0.5mgs of IV morphine.

If I do taper off of suboxone some day I plan on going as far as I can in tapering (it would be better to taper more than needed than to jump off too soon) and literally will probably taper to 10-20mcgs a day (maybe too low, but why not? once you are at the point of getting down to 100mcgs a day then 1mg literally lasts 10 days- so 1 8mg sub would last me 80 days at 100mcgs and more as it gets lower). I think that by going to extremely low doses gradually would be a lot better. I think Beckett-Renser wants people to jump off at 2mgs a day because they know you will still get pretty sick, relapse a good % of patients, and have them end up back on it.

Now, not sure if I will ever taper completely off opioids as I do have pain issues, also people theorize maybe the brain never completely returns to normal or opioid addicts have an endorphin deficincy. The most important thing to me is functionality but just a thought.

Hey JM357, would you mind sharing your experience and opinion on bupes effectiveness on your pain? I'm debating whether or not to get on a sub program but if my pain isn't managed I wont last long so I'm extremely curious about how folks get along with their pain.

 

[Jabberwocky]

I've done all major opiates/antags

heroin was my drug of choice; however, in Boston, the heroin is cut w/ such heavy fent that my test would come back 80/20 fent/dope - dope is pure white. so yes, I did a lot of fent. I also did many patches.

I also loved dilaudid when I had them; was shooting about 8-12MG/day for a half year period.

30's (oxycodone - perc 30's/blues, as we say in Boston) I would shoot those; usually shoot 10 pills at a time or so; would take a few rigs.

OC 80's (oxycodone, again, is where it all started and was only sniffing 1-2 pills a day, back in 01-04)

those were my "hard drugs".

I maxed out at 105MG methadone but still used the fent/dope throughout, so it never "helped" me but yes, I'd take my occasional day off from the dope.

subuxone/bupe is the ONLY THING to make me stop the heavy drugs;; I went once 9 months (I know, it sounds like nothing, but I've been a true junkie) w/o shooting a single thing but dropped from 24MG (max here in Boston - started me off at that in a psych ward for only a week) down to 2MG over the course of those 9 months; I think I dropped too fast and ended up relapsing and going on hardest run of my life.

this past time I was fresh of methadone and went right back to fent/dope. 4 months past of about shooting a 1-2G's a day and I went to 16/MG bupe; I got sent away to a 2 week "program" for a DUI I got, and it helped me get "sober" big time.

now I havent touched shit and have been doing great; I dropped from 16MG to 8MG QUICK, over the course of a week, but was on the 16MG for 4 months before going to 8MG; now I am happy at 8MG and feel great. I dont want to rush and fuck up again but people keep telling me to drop to 2MG - WHY!? yes, they say you get a better "feel" but realize I was a super junkie, so a small dose doesnt do much for me. maybe for someone who doesnt use it daily but I never noticed it last time and led me to relapse, so why now?

 

[whateveryouwill]

What do u mean by why wean to 2mg? Idk how much u take but IMO 4mg/24hrs is sufficient for maintenance. Any more and u are simply wasting. U basically want to wean down to the lowest amount comfortable. I always suggest a 2mg a day habit for maintaining Its overkill to take more. This is all my opinion. And plus wih bupe sometimes it feels better to take less. Thas why u always hear ppl saying less is more with bupe.

 

[cashfl0w_d0nkey]

Opiate maintenance and sobriety are definitely different. Honestly I have done the whole bupe thing twice and it worked really well for me while I was on it. It's not sobriety but it's not a bad quality of life either. That said, I definitely feel being sober is a worthy long term goal. Bupe does change the way you think, act, and live your life. It's easy to see when you're off of it.

 

[SluttyPeach]

Well most people who were dependent on heroin and other strong opiates do feel sober while on bupe, it just keeps us from getting sick. Many who aren't addicts don't understand how ORT works, they think it's just another way to get high. Fuck em though.. it's more important to focus on recovery than the opinions of ignorant, judgmental people. Self doubt is not conducive to recovery!

This being said, I do not consider people on bupe/done to be "clean" but it is much much better than shooting dope. These programs are saving lives. There are unethical clinics/doctors who are nothing more than legal drug dealers who take advantage of addicts to make money. They won't even help you taper.. my mom was going to one of these but she switched to one that helps her taper and has NA meetings and counselors.

So those establishments and people who just sell or abuse their medication are contributing to the negative stigma associated with clinics. All this may be slightly off topic but I think this is a factor in the "clean or not" argument. It sends a message to people! I have no sympathy for those who abuse the system either.. they ruin it for all of us.

 

[varimix]

Dropping down to a lower dose will help save your tesosterone, mood and any other issues that are caused by your brain being flooded constantly with a powerful partial opiate.

Overtime staying on a high dose will rear its ugly head. Trust me on this one. Happens to almost everyone when they get to the 4-6 year mark. Stay low for your health.

 

[Jabberwocky]

I am between 4-8MG's. trying to get down to 2 but in no rush.

 

[bingey]

Actually feeling sober on bupe is bull even in small doses it's a daily euphoric and energetic boost , it will not make you feel like a junky , goodbye cold sweat runny nose , lighter burns. But saying most people feel sober on it is just bull , act sober right.