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Things I ponder

i against i said:
does this even mean anything at all? do you even know what a scientific theory is? it is verifiable, testable, it has proof. you're mixing up "theory" with "guess" and "hypothesis" but the facts don't really seem to matter, just write a load of wishywashy pseudoscientific/philosophical junk and there's your answer.
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Yes, well, science is more of a means to test and verify a subject providing proof and substance to a theory.

The problem is what we can accept as fact,and how we go about perceiving. This has nothing to do with anyones idea of god, theories often need an axiom to be used as a medium to explore and then rationalize new thoughts.

Quantum Physics is about imagination and creation, sorting through the plausible to discover the possible, its best to make such things as simple as can be initially.
 
panic in paradise said:
Quantum Physics is about imagination and creation, sorting through the plausible to discover the possible, its best to make such things as simple as can be initially.
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what does this even mean? have you ever studied physics? you can't just make quantum physics simple ffs.
 
i am having trouble conceiving how you make the mathematical description of wave-particle duality simple.
 
Quantum physics has problems. It is too mathematical and not tied back into reality. It will be replaced in the next 100 years, assuming humans get their act together and rinse out all the corrupt people from the establishment, by a science that recognizes the ether.. as was held to be true for thousands of years until modern science got its head stuck up its own ass. The Higgs Boson is basically an ether field anyway.. even after all their convoluted mathematics they still end up back at the idea of the ether LOL. Science needs to get back to observation rather than mathematical speculation.

Here's one thing science just can't explain sufficiently and has basically ignored because it does not fit the paradigm (yet exists!). Ball Lightning. Instead of chasing mathematical speculations they should investigate that. If they spent several billion euros like they did with the LHC they could probably have figured out something vastly more important than anything the LHC will turn out!! "The day when we shall know exactly what electricity is, will chronicle an event probably greater, more important than any recorded in the history of the human race." - Nikola Tesla
 
Today's scientific community is flawed, but there is still a lot more fact in it than most bible verses. IMO most of the bible should be viewed as metaphors, and there are good lessons to be learned. But I wouldn't view many of those stories as factual. At least theories like relativity have mathematics to back them up. The bible just has.. other copies of the bible. Believing those stories is like saying you proved the sky was blue because your mother told you so.

I'm sure you already know this, but a lot of Einstein's theories (even if he didn't come up with them) had significant real-world backing. There's a fair amount of evidence that nothing can move faster than light, and no evidence to the contrary. The neutrino example you were talking about.. The scientists who made the observation were asking the community to find a flaw in their experiment. I stopped following that, but last I heard there was some flaw in their measurements/instruments and they dismissed their findings.

Anyway, my point was that a theory like the big bang has a lot more evidence and plausibility than "God pointed his finger and everything came into existence". I mean, most creation theories explain their gaps in logic with "don't ask or you go to hell" or something of the sort. At least science says "we don't know, do you have a better working idea?"
 
^apples and cheese imo.

those "top minds" you refer to are top in a specific and valuable field. they are the elite in explaining the world in one way, through scientific methods. this, however, is only one way too look at things, and whilst it has the most rational substance, it is by no means the all encompassing and definitive way to life, the universe and everything.

just a thought on the original post, don't mistake haves and have-nots with suffering. the two can be related, they are not inextricably linked. quality of life is far more than the things and opportunities you have. in face, often the more options and material one has, there is a correlated increase in suffering. people in all walks of life, accustomed to various degrees of welfare, safety and comfort, can experience equal degrees of misery. there are common perceptions of the ideal living standard but these are fickle and the subject of popular culture, so you can't take their seeming superiority as granted.
 
I find it funny that there are posts in this thread (counter argument of 1 = bliss and poverty) which claim the generalisation of 'science has rationally refuted mystical experience, non-linear thought, scripted knowledge, the yet unlit bougeoir of western application of eastern tradition and yada to infinitum' is an over-generalisation as by the latter of quote is obvious science be not the only outcome.

Yet there are many truths to be found in science and many doors to open. There is not only one field of science, there are many. A quantum physicist would not apply the same theory to his work as would a chemist. To state that "science is the only way' is an over-generalisation" is a mass bumping bulk of psychobabblic over-categorisation in itself. It is true that much of science and its work is dictated by the economic market and demand for profit, however such are most walks of life. Maybe when we bunk money will free-will be saved. Peter Joseph believes so, but then Peter Joseph is also an advocate of science.
 
Everything is theory. Scientific theory is based on solid evidence and it is our best understanding of the physical world up until any given point.
 
-=SS=- said:
Here's one thing science just can't explain sufficiently and has basically ignored because it does not fit the paradigm (yet exists!). Ball Lightning. Instead of chasing mathematical speculations they should investigate that. If they spent several billion euros like they did with the LHC they could probably have figured out something vastly more important than anything the LHC will turn out!! "The day when we shall know exactly what electricity is, will chronicle an event probably greater, more important than any recorded in the history of the human race." - Nikola Tesla
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we know exactly what electricity is, the flow of electrons. and "science can't explain it" cries are fucking played out, we didn't know shit 100 years ago, in 100 years what we know now will look like shit. i think you are the one with the head buried in teslas crotch.
 
i against i said:
we know exactly what electricity is, the flow of electrons
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*facepalm* electricity is much, much more than just a flow of electrons. and please don't insult me just because you fail to see the significance of Tesla's work. the guy was a genius who knew far more than the scientific world wants to acknowledge. i am FAR more inclined to trust his word over some douchebag scientists being paid to sit around coming up with mathematical rubbish that does nothing to enhance my life or anyone elses. tesla was the real deal.. he knew his fucking shit.. he was pinging the ionosphere with his equipment before anyone else even knew it existed. i have yet to see "professor" brian cox do anything of that importance, or any of the overpaid morons at CERN. the only blackholes they're creating are the ones on the EU budget sheet. yeh.. so blow me.
 
obviously there is more to eletricity than the flow of electrons. so you are agreeing with me, we do know what electricity is. well, that's good because they aren't trying to create blackholes. and if you consider phd students salaries "overpaid" for the amount of work they do, you are quite deluded, tho that much is obvious. what makes scientists douchebags? why is their reviewed and scruitinized maths "rubbish"? just because you can't understand it doesn't mean it isn't valid...if you think research being done at the LHC and other particle accelerators to try and answer some fundamental questions of physics will not enhance anyone's life, you are just, i dont know, mental.
 
Haha you honestly believe that trying to prove the existence of some mathematical SPECULATION (Higgs Boson) is going to change my life? You are the one who is deluded. Well not quite as much as the scientists who believe in this "mass particle".. it's just f-ing stupid, but hey, it shows you that some of the smartest people can be the most stupid. I didn't say all scientists are douchbags, just a lot of them aren't really great minds.. they all jumped the hoops to get where they are at. How many of them went back to verify the work they were taught? Probably none. But hey, it must be correct or they wouldn't teach it, right?.. This is part of the problem, they all repeat the mistakes and errors in the textbooks and it just goes on and on.. this is true of electrical engineering and particle physics, and has been for well over half a century now.

we only know half the story about electricity. the problem comes from two things.. this assumption that the ether does not exist based upon the results of 1 experiment (which was incomplete), and that outer-space is electrically neutral when it clearly is not. NASA and the astrophysics community at large continues to ignore the evidence and silence's anyone who dares to stand up against the gravity driven cosmology. this is not just me saying this, go ask Halton Arp.. he showed quite clearly that redshift is not a measure of velocity, and many agreed with him.. but he was shot down because it contradicted the model the establishment wants to uphold.

science is like any other human enterprise. it is full of people repeating things instead of actually thinking. it is full of corruption. it is full of money/power. and it is also full of human error.
 
SS has been spot on throughout this conversation.
 
Very interesting arguments.
It's nice to see two very intelligent people express their opinions.
 
I don't think anyone should be downplaying the importance of science. Science is repeated over and over because thats it's process it all goes through in order for it to be substantial. Vaccines and antibiotics, without these two things alone we would all get sick and die, these are the results of scientist. A virus could quite literally wipe us all out, but because of people in science we are able to identify it right away, then create a vaccine which will stop it in its tracks before becoming widespread. There are many things science has lead to that do increase the quality in our life.

The scientific community has its own way of checks and balances, deeming what is generally acceptable. I get frustrated when i hear people talk about science like its all bullshit or corrupt. Sure there are people out there who don't have the best intentions but we know they are bullshit and they don't go very far.
 
SpinOutOfControl: No one is downplaying the importance of science. Science is a fantastic tool, one of the best we've had in a loooong time to help uplift the condition and understanding of humanity as a whole. One can not deny that. You have to understand though that science is a human enterprise.. whilst science tries to be objective in its discoveries it can't fully seperate itself from humans and human motivations. Funding and institutions have far more power in the sway of the direction of science than I think most people realize. Science isn't the free flowing enterprise that I think most people believe it is.. it is largely funded by big institutions, corporations, and the military industrial complex.

You mentioned vaccines. Big pharma is big on science.. however they continue to lobby governments to continue the illegal status of cannabis because the cannabis plant can be used to treat multiple illnesses and cure cancer. That is the truth that no one wants to hear. They are interested in money, first and foremost.. they are corporations afterall. And having a free cure for cancer and other illnesses would be highly damaging to their industry. The same happens with other big industries who supress things to maintain a corporate profit. That is just the truth :(
 
SpinOutOfControl said:
I don't think anyone should be downplaying the importance of science. Science is repeated over and over because thats it's process it all goes through in order for it to be substantial. Vaccines and antibiotics, without these two things alone we would all get sick and die, these are the results of scientist. A virus could quite literally wipe us all out, but because of people in science we are able to identify it right away, then create a vaccine which will stop it in its tracks before becoming widespread. There are many things science has lead to that do increase the quality in our life.

The scientific community has its own way of checks and balances, deeming what is generally acceptable. I get frustrated when i hear people talk about science like its all bullshit or corrupt. Sure there are people out there who don't have the best intentions but we know they are bullshit and they don't go very far.
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'place no reliance on virgin or pidgeon;
the method is science, the aim is religion'

- Alister Crowley

;)
 
-=SS=- said:
You mentioned vaccines. Big pharma is big on science.. however they continue to lobby governments to continue the illegal status of cannabis because the cannabis plant can be used to treat multiple illnesses and cure cancer. That is the truth that no one wants to hear. They are interested in money, first and foremost.. they are corporations afterall. And having a free cure for cancer and other illnesses would be highly damaging to their industry. The same happens with other big industries who supress things to maintain a corporate profit. That is just the truth :(
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There is no cure for cancer, and cannabis def is not it. Even if pure THC may inhibit the growth of SOME types of cancer cells, smoking anything will cause cancer. Rick Simpson is a quack for telling people to stop their mainstream cancer treatment and that all you need is THC. Thats bullshit. I believe in the health benefits of cannabis but the medical industry in the US also makes me sick.

Trillions of dollars have been spent on cancer research and there is still no cure, only treatments. And at todays point in time cancer can be a very manageable and controllable thing with all of the advances where in the past, maybe 60 years ago, cancer was sure death for the individual. Pharmaceutical companies can't make a profit if the drug they develop doesn't work and isn't effective. Most of that money went towards the research and development of things that didn't work as expected.

If cannabis were federally legal i guarantee these companies will put an enormous amount of money into the development of many different pharmaceutical grade drugs derived from cannabis aimed to treat a number of illnesses or pain very specifically. As with the developmental stage of any drug most of them will not work as intended or have too many side effects. The small number that do come of the process will have to make up for the money spent trying all of the other times. Thats why Pharmaceutical drugs are so expensive. If someone goes every week to a dispensary to buy a quarter of the Sour Diesel to blaze up, they are just getting high. Thats ok, but its a mockery of the medical community by using it as a front to hustle weed. Medical marijuana should go through the same process all other drugs do. Otherwise you end up with chemical and mold ridden so called, "medicine". These things should be done in more of laboratory setting just like anything else.
 
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