The Vow of Celibacy Should be Eliminated by The Catholic Church

[Maya]

You said it makes you mad, so I'm telling you your emotion is clouding your perspective. This perspective is only exacerbating your emotional reaction, only further reducing rationality on this subject.

This is exactly what commercial news and current affairs programs exploit their audiences with.

Chill out, you're only stressing yourself and solving nothing in the process.

Lol, my apologies it doesn't solve the problem indeed, but I stand on my opinion against celibacy. Imo, I don't think the media is to blame, and in fact the catholic church tried so hard to cover up of these crimes so its about time people are exposed to the truth.

 

[Tromps]

Some people do [have strong sexual desires] and that includes some of these priests who, because of the vow of celibacy is suppressing these desires. It's not only lying to themselves but also being a hypocrite. There is a feeling of sexual deprivation. Let's compare this to a teenager who wants to explore a lot of things but his/her parents are preventing her to do so because of "strict rules." What do you think the outcome is mostly? Rebellion.
. . .
I call this a psychological problem which most of the pedophiles have.
. . .
Some priests became Saints and this is because of their genuine service to be the best servant of God. Some of these priests were beatified. Yes there's going to be mistakes made but this does not give them excuses to molest women/children.
. . .
No absolutely not, each crime is committed individually and this crime should not be used against the religion itself but we also have to consider that there are certain rules in some religions that affect the behavior of its members and as I have mentioned, celibacy is one of them.
. . .
It is the rule itself that has caused these problems and if the priest has a psychological problem then this causes a bigger problem that leads to sex crimes.

The comparison of a teen forced to follow their parents rules is irrelevant IMO. For one, becoming a priest is a choice and there are different vocations/discernment's in religious life, the vows are freely chosen and take years of contemplation at a monastery before you commit to the vow, it isn't something you decide over night.

When I was researching religious life, all of the places I looked at required fairly good physical, psychological, and emotional health; a person who has mental health issues should probably work on resolving their problems first or look at another discernment other than a priest.

Such as holy matrimony (marriage), perhaps a person who feels a strong calling to serve God, and also has intense sexual urges should get married and have many children instead of priesthood. Sex is a beautiful thing when done healthily for it's fundamental cause of expressing love and creating children. Both callings are nearly equally important.

Of course pedophiles have psychological problem, but I don't think it can be pinned on priests and celibacy, just because there's a rule against something doesn't mean everyone's rebelling against it. There are rules outside of religion relating to society, culture, law, that are broken anyways whether it was a rule or not, people will still be bad. That can go for anything really. Including the fact that the church has the most followers in the world, there are bound to be more bad apples

No one should be excused for peoples behavior abusing children, and I don't think anyone else should be accountable or take responsibility other than the offender.. Anyone who does so should be punished to the maximum the law allows for. They are just like teachers or doctors who use positions of trust to betray and prey on the helpless.

When it comes down to it, I think even if priests were able to get married, there would still be child abuse scandals and we would be trying to find something else to blame instead. The reality of it is, bad people will be bad people.

The reason that show ["To Catch A Predator"] pissed me off is because it's causing men who are attracted to 16-years-old girls feel naughty and perverted, which in turn causes their desires to become progressively worse. In the case of celibacy, priests are made to feel as if having any sex at all is some kind of crime, so all sex becomes a crime in their minds. At least that's how I see it.

At least you admit that's how you see it

I see it like this, these guys don't deserve pity, they were going there with the intent to have sex with kids, and who knows do what else? No one caused them to do it but themselves. In these cases, the victims are the young boys-and-girls who didn't have any parental supervision. What if it was your child? Going back to priests and celibacy, I don't believe they think it is a crime in their mind. They probably think of sex as the driving force of humanity and God's way for us to reproduce, which is wonderful really, but I can't speak for a priest.

I meant to say, "celibacy isn't the entire problem." It's a problem, to be sure! I'll willing to bet that the actual number of men who don't want sex is very, very low (prob. < 0.5%). The rest of us want sex, ergo, celibacy should be abolished.

Maybe you should include a poll with this thread, Maya

Fixed.
We all know the results of a poll on this topic already, it wouldn't surprise anyone, seeming that the majority of bluelighters are democratic liberals and against organized religions

This is a challenging debate with strong arguments on both sides, good thread.

Jesus speaks of those who "have renounced marriage for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. One who is able to accept it, should accept it." (Mt 19:12)

An unmarried man is caring for that which belongs to the Lord, how he may please the Lord. But he that is married is concerned about the things of this world, how he may please his wife, and he is divided. . . This is for your own benefit, not to put restraint on you, but for what is proper, and that you may serve the Lord without distraction. (1 Cor 7:32-35).

A man called to celibacy will be given both the desire and ability to carry out this way of life successfully (Phil 2:13)

L2R is right, no need to stress out or raise our blood pressure over this

 

[Foreigner]

Added poll at OP's request.

 

[MrGrunge]

Fixed.

Does this mean you don't view sex as a biological imperative?

 

[Maya]

Added poll at OP's request.

Thank you!!!! and obviously my answer is yes it needs to be removed!

Does this mean you don't view sex as a biological imperative?

IMO what Tromps is trying to explain is that celibacy is not the main issue of why these crimes are being committed by priests. There are priests that are solidly committed to being the vessel of God and willingly suppressed the human instinct of sexual desires which I find absurd. I grew up as a Roman Catholic and I have seen a lot of contradictions with the teachings and what is acceptable and is not and I am thankful that with being more open to other ideologies and religions I was able to grasp the importance of rationalization.

 

[MrGrunge]

IMO what Tromps is trying to explain is that celibacy is not the main issue of why these crimes are being committed by priests.

That may be his larger point, but he "fix'd" the previous post by switching out the word "need" for "want". Implying, as far as I can tell, that sexual desire is not inherent to the human condition.

 

[Tromps]

exists stated that "the actual number of men who don't need sex is very, very low (prob. <0.5%.) The rest of us need sex"

I need water, food, oxygen (etc) for my immediate survival. I don't need sex.

I want to distinguish between sexual desire with the intent for pure pleasure, and sexual desire with the intent for having children. There is a difference yes? Sex to keep the survival of the species is necessary, but as an individual I don't need to necessary have sex to stay alive.

YMMV?

 

[MrGrunge]

^ You need food, water, and oxygen because you are biologically programmed for it. Libido and sexual desire is are also products of biological conditioning, and there are a number of diseases and physiological and psychological maladies associated with abstinence from ejaculation (so, in a way, abstinence from sex can kill you). I think it's pretty ridiculous to assume that priests are somehow above their own biological drives simply because they took a vow.

I get that you specifically don't feel you need sex to survive, but when was the last time you took a vow of celibacy? It's easy to disregard the power sex drive when you're allowed to fuck and masturbate at any time, knowing that it isn't forbidden for you. I don't think there is a direct causality between a Vow of Celibacy and child abuse, but if I were a betting man, I'd wager that there would be fewer priests having sex with boys if they were allowed to get their kicks from people their own age - if that wasn't the case, then I would wager there is something inherently wrong with the Catholic church to attract men with such perverse inclinations.

 

[exists]

I see it like this, these guys don't deserve pity, they were going there with the intent to have sex with kids, and who knows do what else? No one caused them to do it but themselves.

True, very true, but you seem to be skipping over an important issue (and it's always skipped over): at some point during their lives, an extreme event happened (they were probably molested), and instead of getting proper help for it to become better people, they were left to own to their devices, having to process the serious event in solitary. They didn't process it well. And it possibly could have been avoided if they weren't afraid of reaching out in time (some do, more would), but doing so would have been like suicide, so they remained locked up inside, and their problems grew worse.

What if it was your child?

If I had children, I would not let them near priests. Not with all the bad publicity.

If my 16-year-old girl found love (not talking about priests now), I would look at the situation carefully to see if the love she & her partner had for each other was the long-living kind or not, and then make a decision based on my best judgements.

We all know the results of a poll on this topic already, it wouldn't surprise anyone, seeming that the majority of bluelighters are democratic liberals and against organized religions

I'm not against organized religions at all: I'm against shady doings within organizations that can undermine the future of humanity. I'm against pushing -- in the church it might be through religious pressure -- somebody into celibacy, when in fact most people have active sex drives.

Jesus speaks of those who "have renounced marriage for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. One who is able to accept it, should accept it." (Mt 19:12)

Your bible words it differently. In mine, Jesus says, "For there are some eunuchs, which were so born from their mother's womb: and there are some eunuchs, which were made eunuchs of men: and there be eunuchs, which have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven's sake. He that is able to receive it, let him receive it."

Notice how he used the word "eunuch" in all three cases. I don't know how close to the original text the KJB bible is, but if we are to take Mt 19:12 literally, he is advocating that some men undergo castration if it's the right choice for them spiritually.

And this brings me back to the overall point I'm trying to make: shouldn't society work harder towards helping people to not become perverted in the first place? Remember, deviants are afraid to seek help for a reason, and if you keep your ears open long enough, you'll find that a large number of men are unhappy with their sexuality and would change it if they could.

L2R is right, no need to stress out or raise our blood pressure over this

Why, are you about to blow a gasket or something? But you're both right. It's good to approach subjects with a level-head. Over-heated debates decohere rapidly.

 

[Tromps]

^ You need food, water, and oxygen because you are biologically programmed for it. Libido and sexual desire is are also products of biological conditioning, and there are a number of diseases and physiological and psychological maladies associated with abstinence from ejaculation (so, in a way, abstinence from sex can kill you). I think it's pretty ridiculous to assume that priests are somehow above their own biological drives simply because they took a vow.

I get that you specifically don't feel you need sex to survive, but when was the last time you took a vow of celibacy? It's easy to disregard the power sex drive when you're allowed to fuck and masturbate at any time, knowing that it isn't forbidden for you. I don't think there is a direct causality between a Vow of Celibacy and child abuse, but if I were a betting man, I'd wager that there would be fewer priests having sex with boys if they were allowed to get their kicks from people their own age - if that wasn't the case, then I would wager there is something inherently wrong with the Catholic church to attract men with such perverse inclinations.

Lol well if you want to get personal now I've never taken a vow of celibacy but I haven't had sex in 3 years and I feel fine nor have I done anything else (unless you include softcore sex scenes with titties only flashing on HBO and ShowTime).

Lack of sex can kill me? Uh oh you're scaring me now I would love to see some 'diseases and physiological and psychological maladies associated with abstinence' studies when you have the free time so that you can inform and make me well aware of these non-sex killers.

Bad wager, how would there be fewer priests abusing children and at the same time say "more priests would get kicks from people their own age?" People who have sexual impulses toward children aren't going to change and start having sex with grown women just because the rules change that let them have sex with women in a marriage. That's like saying more straight person are going to start having sex with gay people now just because "gay marriage" because legal. I didn't think peoples sexual orientation or impulses change much after adulthood?

Since everyone else is betting, I'm throwing my chips in and say most priests who really want to satisfy temptations are going to jack off or get a prostitute. More priests have likely had sex with women prostitutes and secret relationships than children, but you're never going to hear about it, because the media only cares when children are involved and rightfully so.

If there is something "inherently wrong with the Catholic Church" to attract men of such perverse inclinations, then in all fairness I suppose we can say there must be something inherently wrong with the democratic party for attracting men of such perverse inclinations in their party recently. Filner, Spitzer, Weiner, dirty dems! And they don't even resign, nor does the administration say anything! It's like Obama is the Pope and he's covering up/not speaking out against his lower minions.

We could probably say that about all major organizations. When you can find a group that even comes close to the size of the Church (1.2 billion people) and except not to find any bad people hidden in there, I will applaud you.

 

[exists]

I need water, food, oxygen (etc) for my immediate survival. I don't need sex.

My body gives me sex whether I want it or not. If I go too long without "releasing the valve," my dreams will do it for me. Are you any different? You may be lucky (or unlucky).

Sexual desire is a key part of our psyche, and it runs deep. When present, it can't just be rooted out, because it's too tenacious. Like all parts of us, it's a plant that grows, starts growing very early, and catching that plant at its critical phase today is the key to stopping perversion tomorrow.

The world needs to look at it as a preventable issue.

 

[Tromps]

If I had children, I would not let them near priests. Not with all the bad publicity.

You missed the point. Smart, premeditated criminals will find positions that put them in trust and care then exploit that. How about teachers? Your 16 year old girl would be a prime target for male pedophiles and teachers. You heard about that Ariel Castro guy who had 3 girls kidnapped and held hostage in his basement while he raped them for over a decade? He was a school bus driver... Anyone in a position of care, trust, you have to be careful around. To not even go near a priest or pastor because a few have done bad things is the most blatant stereotyping and prejudge. You should apply the same logic to your daughters school teachers since hundreds and thousands of teachers have sexually abused kids.

Your bible words it differently. In mine, Jesus says, "For there are some eunuchs, which were so born from their mother's womb: and there are some eunuchs, which were made eunuchs of men: and there be eunuchs, which have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven's sake. He that is able to receive it, let him receive it."

Yeah the wording in it is a little different, but the it has the same message and meaning. Eunuch may refer to someone who was born sterile, someone/thing caused them to be sterile, or they choose to be celibate. And in that passage it is clear some of them "chose" they would not marry. I highly doubt anyone is castrating themselves, customs change, why would you need to in the modern world when there's condemns and birth control on every shelf corner anyways.

 

[rickolasnice]

Just to paraphrase the logic here. Teen pregnancy seems to correlate with Bible Belt states who would surely be teaching chastity more than other states. Therefore priests who commit to a life of chastity molest children.

Wanna show me where I said that? I think i made it pretty clear that i had stopped talking about my speculative hypothesis on priests molesting children because of abstinence to related reading on what affects teaching abstinence does have.

This, of course, is just speculation to a high degree.

But there is one thing we can see; teaching complete abstinence has a seemingly direct correlation with unwanted teenage pregnancies:

Prime examples of "it shows more about the accuser than the accused."

 

[rickolasnice]

Lack of sex can kill me? Uh oh you're scaring me now I would love to see some 'diseases and physiological and psychological maladies associated with abstinence' studies when you have the free time so that you can inform and make me well aware of these non-sex killers.

One study comes to mind:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12887469

 

[Maya]

Hmm that's an interesting study... I actually asked my dad last night about celibacy and he agrees with me that it is one of the reasons why these molestations are happening although he doesn't see it as the main reason of these crimes. We were having a debate last night as well and he said that he doesn't think the Catholic church will ever removed the vow of celibacy because it is a purpose for a person to show that they are devoted to the church. I found this news article about a Catholic priest who was caught kissing his girlfriend at a Miami beach. He is no longer serving as a priest.

http://www.todaystmj4.com/news/local/121818259.html?lc=Smart#

It looks like it's a tie keep voting peeps!

 

[exists]

You missed the point. Smart, premeditated criminals will find positions that put them in trust and care then exploit that. How about teachers? Your 16 year old girl would be a prime target for male pedophiles and teachers. (...) You should apply the same logic to your daughters school teachers since hundreds and thousands of teachers have sexually abused kids.

You're right. I was making sweeping generalizations about priests, which was wrong.

But you are also making generalizations about sex offenders. I don't think all of them have intentionally placed themselves into situations where they can abuse children.

Yeah the wording in it is a little different, but the it has the same message and meaning.

No, I don't think it does. Let's look the version you posted, the one I posted, and the New American Standard Bible version (the NASB is regarded by many as a good translation):

Jesus speaks of those who "have renounced marriage for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. One who is able to accept it, should accept it." (Mt 19:12)

"For there are some eunuchs, which were so born from their mother's womb: and there are some eunuchs, which were made eunuchs of men: and there be eunuchs, which have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven's sake. He that is able to receive it, let him receive it."

For there are eunuchs who were born that way from their mother’s womb; and there are eunuchs who were made eunuchs by men; and there are also eunuchs who made themselves eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. He who is able to accept this, let him accept it.”

Why would Jesus use the word "eunuch" for all three cases unless he actually meant "one who is castrated or sterile?"

To avoid confusion, let's take a look at Merriam-Webster's definition of eunuch:

Definition of EUNUCH

1. a castrated man placed in charge of a harem or employed as a chamberlain in a palace
2. a man or boy deprived of the testes or external genitals
3. one that lacks virility or power <political eunuchs>

and your definition of eunuch:

Eunuch may refer to someone who was born sterile, someone/thing caused them to be sterile, or they choose to be celibate.

So your first two definitions are correct, but the last one is not, as celibacy is not the same as castration.

I can only assume Jesus was actually talking about castration, as trying to apply celibacy to Jesus words makes no sense:

For there are celibate men who were born that way from their mother’s womb; and there are celibate men who were made celibate by men; and there are also celibate men who made themselves celibate for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. He who is able to accept this, let him accept it.”

The first case makes no sense, unless a man was born without testes or sterile in some other way. The second case makes no sense either, since how can one man force another man to be celibate? (Two possibilities: 1) imprisonment; 2) castration.) The last case makes sense either way, as both castration and celibacy can be personal choices.

And that brings me to another question I wanted to bring up: should voluntary castration be legalized? If a man could not control his sexual behavior, and if by losing most of his sex drive via castration he was likely to never offend, shouldn't he have the option of going to a doctor to have his testes removed?

I highly doubt anyone is castrating themselves, customs change, why would you need to in the modern world when there's condemns and birth control on every shelf corner anyways.

Preventing births and STDs is not the issue. The issue (assuming we're still talking about Mt 19:12) is forsaking a sexual life to better serve God and the kingdom of heaven. So the only modern solution I can see at this point is the use of antiandrogens to lessen a man's sex drive (chemical castration).

Anyway, this is good topic and everyone and brought up good some points.

 

[Maya]

Preventing births and STDs is not the issue. The issue (assuming we're still talking about Mt 19:12) is forsaking a sexual life to better serve God and the kingdom of heaven. So the only modern solution I can see at this point is the use of antiandrogens to lessen a man's sex drive (chemical castration).

Anyway, this is good topic and everyone and brought up good some points.

Oh mannn suppression by antiandrogens? That's insane! It's like using condoms and using birth control pills which again, the Catholic church are against with. Plus this will be considered using a drug which, again they are against with. I don't think they will be up for it because of these issues and I don't think they will be willing to spend that much money just for sexual suppression.

 

[Thorns Have Roses]

I've always had mad respect for celibate clergymen/monastics, and asceticism in general. I say they should keep it.

Oh, and Buddhist monastics also take vows of celibacy, and a good number of them interact with the lay community. Is there a problem with Buddhist monks molesting children as the result of this?

Does this mean you don't view sex as a biological imperative?

No, I do not. Nor social interaction.

 

[MyDoorsAreOpen]

The Catholic Church adopted celibacy for priests as a pragmatic measure. The Church has long been a very wealthy institution, by the patronage of the European nobility and landed gentry (and indirectly through the taxation of the masses). Having priests be celibate kept them from being able to pass on any of this wealth to descendants, and create dynasties and all the unholy drama of rifts in wealthy families of greedy people.

The key to understanding the Catholic Church is that its hierarchy and traditions were influenced by, and created as a complement to, the European feudal order which ruled people's secular lives. Its rich lore and cultural heritage are appreciated more today for their inscrutability and (temporal) exoticism than as natural extensions of how the mundane world works -- "on heaven as it is on earth". Because in today's Western world, where kings, nobles, and serfs are no longer a part of living memory, the organization and power structure of the Catholic Church are living anachronisms. It's no wonder increasing numbers of people can draw no spiritual nourishment from this Church anymore, and those who can come disproportionally from corners of the world where a feudal-like social order remains.

 

[L2R]

Wanna show me where I said that? I think i made it pretty clear that i had stopped talking about my speculative hypothesis on priests molesting children because of abstinence to related reading on what affects teaching abstinence seems to have.

fify