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  • Current Events & Politics Moderators: tryptakid | Foreigner

The UK in the EU: "Brexit"

Well it's easy to not understand the game when you're not in the club like 99.9% of people ;) No global conspiracy.. just an old boys network that is interested in increasing its power and profitability. They all support and love the EU because it benefits them immensely. That's why it was set up in the first place!

Ok, you cleary know all about this shit. Explain please.
 
Although it shouldn't, and won't be used by the Remain campaign (despite pathetic attempts by the leader of the Fascist Britain First party yesterday to say it will be) it can only be hoped that if there is to be any good from the death of Jo Cox it is that it brings some people to their senses.

Here is a brilliant article written by Jo's husband, detailing how clueless mainstream politicians have become on migration and pleading for simple solutions to halt the resurgence of the detestable far right populism the world is now seeing.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news...al-with-migration-debate-says-jo-coxs-husband
 
A A Gill. Can't stand the bloke, right-wing restaurant critic. But he's come up with the best "remain" article I've yet seen. Here is an edited extract (best I could find, it was in The Times and they have a pay wall).


His description of why people want out is bang on for almost every outer that I know. A lot I agree with in the article to be honest.

"It was the woman on Question Time that really did it for me. She was so familiar. There is someone like her in every queue, every coffee shop, outside every school in every parish council in the country. Middle-aged, middle-class, middle-brow, over-made-up, with her National Health face and weatherproof English expression of hurt righteousness, she’s Britannia’s mother-in-law. The camera closed in on her and she shouted: “All I want is my country back. Give me my country back.”

It was a heartfelt cry of real distress and the rest of the audience erupted in sympathetic applause, but I thought: “Back from what? Back from where?”

Wanting the country back is the constant mantra of all the outies. Farage slurs it, Gove insinuates it. Of course I know what they mean. We all know what they mean. They mean back from Johnny Foreigner, back from the brink, back from the future, back-to-back, back to bosky hedges and dry stone walls and country lanes and church bells and warm beer and skittles and football rattles and cheery banter and clogs on cobbles. Back to vicars-and-tarts parties and Carry On fart jokes, back to Elgar and fudge and proper weather and herbaceous borders and cars called Morris. Back to victoria sponge and 22 yards to a wicket and 15 hands to a horse and 3ft to a yard and four fingers in a Kit Kat, back to gooseberries not avocados, back to deference and respect, to make do and mend and smiling bravely and biting your lip and suffering in silence and patronising foreigners with pity.

We all know what “getting our country back” means. It’s snorting a line of the most pernicious and debilitating Little English drug, nostalgia. The warm, crumbly, honey-coloured, collective “yesterday” with its fond belief that everything was better back then, that Britain (England, really) is a worse place now than it was at some foggy point in the past where we achieved peak Blighty. It’s the knowledge that the best of us have been and gone, that nothing we can build will be as lovely as a National Trust Georgian country house, no art will be as good as a Turner, no poem as wonderful as If, no writer a touch on Shakespeare or Dickens, nothing will grow as lovely as a cottage garden, no hero greater than Nelson, no politician better than Churchill, no view more throat-catching than the White Cliffs and that we will never manufacture anything as great as a Rolls-Royce or Flying Scotsman again.

The dream of Brexit isn’t that we might be able to make a brighter, new, energetic tomorrow, it’s a desire to shuffle back to a regret-curdled inward-looking yesterday. In the Brexit fantasy, the best we can hope for is to kick out all the work-all-hours foreigners and become caretakers to our own past in this self-congratulatory island of moaning and pomposity.

And if you think that’s an exaggeration of the Brexit position, then just listen to the language they use: “We are a nation of inventors and entrepreneurs, we want to put the great back in Britain, the great engineers, the great manufacturers.” This is all the expression of a sentimental nostalgia. In the Brexiteer’s mind’s eye is the old Pathé newsreel of Donald Campbell, of John Logie Baird with his television, Barnes Wallis and his bouncing bomb, and Robert Baden-Powell inventing boy scouts in his shed.

All we need, their argument goes, is to be free of the humourless Germans and spoilsport French and all their collective liberalism and reality. There is a concomitant hope that if we manage to back out of Europe, then we’ll get back to the bowler-hatted 1950s and the Commonwealth will hold pageants, fireworks displays and beg to be back in the Queen Empress’s good books again. Then New Zealand will sacrifice a thousand lambs, Ghana will ask if it can go back to being called the Gold Coast and Britain will resume hand-making Land Rovers and top hats and Sheffield plate teapots.

There is a reason that most of the people who want to leave the EU are old while those who want to remain are young: it’s because the young aren’t infected with Bisto nostalgia. They don’t recognise half the stuff I’ve mentioned here. They’ve grown up in the EU and at worst it’s been neutral for them.

The under-thirties want to be part of things, not aloof from them. They’re about being joined-up and counted. I imagine a phrase most outies identify with is “women’s liberation has gone too far”. Everything has gone too far for them, from political correctness — well, that’s gone mad, hasn’t it? — to health and safety and gender-neutral lavatories. Those oldies, they don’t know if they’re coming or going, what with those newfangled mobile phones and kids on Tinder and Grindr. What happened to meeting Miss Joan Hunter Dunn at the tennis club? And don’t get them started on electric hand dryers, or something unrecognised in the bagging area, or Indian call centres , or the impertinent computer asking for a password that has both capitals and little letters and numbers and more than eight digits.

Brexit is the fond belief that Britain is worse now than at some point in the foggy past where we achieved peak Blighty
We listen to the Brexit lot talk about the trade deals they’re going to make with Europe after we leave, and the blithe insouciance that what they’re offering instead of EU membership is a divorce where you can still have sex with your ex. They reckon they can get out of the marriage, keep the house, not pay alimony, take the kids out of school, stop the in-laws going to the doctor, get strict with the visiting rights, but, you know, still get a shag at the weekend and, obviously, see other people on the side.

Really, that’s their best offer? That’s the plan? To swagger into Brussels with Union Jack pants on and say: “ ’Ello luv, you’re looking nice today. Would you like some?”

When the rest of us ask how that’s really going to work, leavers reply, with Terry-Thomas smirks, that “they’re going to still really fancy us, honest, they’re gagging for us. Possibly not Merkel, but the bosses of Mercedes and those French vintners and cheesemakers, they can’t get enough of old John Bull. Of course they’re going to want to go on making the free market with two backs after we’ve got the decree nisi. Makes sense, doesn’t it?”

Have no doubt, this is a divorce. It’s not just business, it’s not going to be all reason and goodwill. Like all divorces, leaving Europe would be ugly and mean and hurtful, and it would lead to a great deal of poisonous xenophobia and racism, all the niggling personal prejudice that dumped, betrayed and thwarted people are prey to. And the racism and prejudice are, of course, weak points for us. The tortuous renegotiation with lawyers and courts will be bitter and vengeful, because divorces always are and, just in passing, this sovereignty thing we’re supposed to want back so badly, like Frodo’s ring, has nothing to do with you or me. We won’t notice it coming back, because we didn’t notice not having it in the first place.

You won’t wake up on June 24 and think: “Oh my word, my arthritis has gone! My teeth are suddenly whiter! Magically, I seem to know how to make a soufflé and I’m buff with the power of sovereignty.” This is something only politicians care about; it makes not a jot of difference to you or me if the Supreme Court is a bunch of strangely out-of-touch old gits in wigs in Westminster or a load of strangely out-of-touch old gits without wigs in Luxembourg. What matters is that we have as many judges as possible on the side of personal freedom.

Personally, I see nothing about our legislators in the UK that makes me feel I can confidently give them more power. The more checks and balances politicians have, the better for the rest of us. You can’t have too many wise heads and different opinions. If you’re really worried about red tape, by the way, it’s not just a European problem. We’re perfectly capable of coming up with our own rules and regulations and we have no shortage of jobsworths. Red tape may be annoying, but it is also there to protect your and my family from being lied to, poisoned and cheated.

The first “X” I ever put on a voting slip was to say yes to the EU. The first referendum was when I was 20 years old. This one will be in the week of my 62nd birthday. For nearly all my adult life, there hasn’t been a day when I haven’t been pleased and proud to be part of this great collective. If you ask me for my nationality, the truth is I feel more European than anything else. I am part of this culture, this European civilisation. I can walk into any gallery on our continent and completely understand the images and the stories on the walls. These people are my people and they have been for thousands of years. I can read books on subjects from Ancient Greece to Dark Ages Scandinavia, from Renaissance Italy to 19th-century France, and I don’t need the context or the landscape explained to me. The music of Europe, from its scales and its instruments to its rhythms and religion, is my music. The Renaissance, the rococo, the Romantics, the impressionists, gothic, baroque, neoclassicism, realism, expressionism, futurism, fauvism, cubism, dada, surrealism, postmodernism and kitsch were all European movements and none of them belongs to a single nation.

There is a reason why the Chinese are making fake Italian handbags and the Italians aren’t making fake Chinese ones. This European culture, without question or argument, is the greatest, most inventive, subtle, profound, beautiful and powerful genius that was ever contrived anywhere by anyone and it belongs to us. Just look at my day job — food. The change in food culture and pleasure has been enormous since we joined the EU, and that’s no coincidence. What we eat, the ingredients, the recipes, may come from around the world, but it is the collective to and fro of European interests, expertise and imagination that has made it all so very appetising and exciting.

The restaurant was a European invention, naturally. The first one in Paris was called The London Bridge.

Culture works and grows through the constant warp and weft of creators, producers, consumers, intellectuals and instinctive lovers. You can’t dictate or legislate for it, you can just make a place that encourages it and you can truncate it. You can make it harder and more grudging, you can put up barriers and you can build walls, but why on earth would you? This collective culture, this golden civilisation grown on this continent over thousands of years, has made everything we have and everything we are, why would you not want to be part of it?

I understand that if we leave we don’t have to hand back our library ticket for European civilisation, but why would we even think about it? In fact, the only ones who would are those old, philistine scared gits. Look at them, too frightened to join in."

[Post edited 16 Jun 7:28]
 
If you genuinely think that's the best remain article you've seen, and let's face the fact it probably is.. and also probably one of the better articles and I mean that sincerely, given that the fear mongering is only at a level 3 of 10.. then, well, you're not terribly bright. Which unfortunately is pretty much the common theme among the remain crowd, and to highlight that point I'll just pick out one of many nonsense lines contained with that article you posted;

"There is a reason that most of the people who want to leave the EU are old while those who want to remain are young: it’s because the young aren’t infected with Bisto nostalgia. They don’t recognise half the stuff I’ve mentioned here. They’ve grown up in the EU and at worst it’s been neutral for them."

Actually, the reason why the old generally want out has nothing to with Bisto nostalgia, or xenophobia, or any other trite rabble you may attribute. It's amazing to think that old fool actually believes that line. No, the reason why the old are generally in favor of Brexit is because of life experience, they've actually seen the downward trend in this country where as the youth have not. Second, they actually have a better grasp of our national history unlike the youth who've had a second rate liberal education that does its best to decry our history as one of nothing but violence, colonialism and barbarity. Third, the youth have had the full force of a weak liberal education system, governmental system, media system and cultural enterprise that is now 2nd generation EU infected, and nothing short of brainwashing.

The youth have grown up already inside a failing enterprise and don't know anything better. They also don't really understand what power actually is, given that their entire lives have been choreographed around the notion that power is something to be avoided, through health and safety, telling on people as opposed to affecting power through courage, and basically demonizing any strong male demonstration of power. The state enterprise has become their father, best friend, and love.

The youth have no conception of what power means on an individual level so there is no way in hell they can hope to understand what it means on a national or intranational level.
 
Britain has a simple choice: leave the EU, or allow their women to get raped by low IQ inbred barbarians. [mod note -- infraction]
 
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A A Gill. Can't stand the bloke, right-wing restaurant critic. But he's come up with the best "remain" article I've yet seen.

Any port in a storm.I guess it applies to hypocrites too if it furthers said hypocrites agenda.Not an honorable act to be sure but hey,one takes what one can get as long as "it's for the cause".But such moral bankruptcy and justification also applies to snitches and bitches(be they male or female),neither who can be trusted and are eventually rooted out for the cowards that they are.I don't know how such a person can live with themselves.
 
^

You do know I've said I can't bring myself to vote for remain? Or is that just another assumption I see falling out of your fascist arse?

What a prat. You'll get a post right soon. Actually, no you won't.
 
SS, may i ask why you can't engage in debate without resorting to saying "you're not very bright" calling people "old fools"?
 
I think what needs to be stated is exactly how staying will effect the most people as well as leaving effecting the most people.

The idea of the EU is great...if implemented properly. One twig can be broken easily, but hold a bundle of twigs and try to break it.
 
I think what needs to be stated is exactly how staying will effect the most people as well as leaving effecting the most people.

There is a real discrepancy between what has been portrayed in the media about the effects of leaving vs staying. Much has been said by the remain side about the perils, dangers and existential threats if we leave.. in fact much of their argument is based around this perspective. "The experts say this".. or Osbourne threatening the electorate with tax rises if we leave.. to how much your food bill will go up.. or how much you will lose off your pension. It's bloody disgraceful.

I will concede no one knows exactly what will happen if we leave. That is true. There is risk. But everything has risk in life, does it not? The discrepancy appears though when we examine what has been said about the risks of remaining. The remain side has illustrated that we will continue to not have any control over levels of immigration and continue to be subservient to EU directives/laws.. but these are known facts at present, not potential risks of the future. Very little has been said actually about the risks of remaining, from both sides, which is perhaps one of the failures of the leave campaign.. to really underscore the risks of remaining.

If we stay. If we stay there are a number of real risks. One of the major risks is that we discover that Cameron's "negotiations" were less than worthless, though anyone with intelligence knew that already, and that political union is very much still on the cards and from which we will have no power what so ever to reject. Another is that this half-promise of "reforming" the EU, asserted by many of the electorate as a reason to remain, turns out to be also less than worthless and we find we have little to zero power to really affect the direction of the EU monster. Yet another is that Cameron's assertion that Turkey will not join the EU until the year 3000 turns out to be false, and they join within 10 years.. opening up the EU to yet another wave of inward migration that will further destabilize nations which are already quite tense. Those are some of the big risks, but there are many other smaller risks too.

The biggest "risk" of all is sovereignty. Though I don't count this as a risk, or potential danger. It is an irrevocable fact, that if we remain our Parliament will continue to be subservient to EU law as it is now, where 50-80% (depending on who you ask) of all our laws are handed down from outside our borders. That is how it is, now. The risk is that if we remain our sovereignty will continue to be further undermined, and the risk is we will just become a satellite plantation of the EU superstate.
 
Short article, "7 Risks in voting Remain", by Daniel Hannan MEP. He's a very good speaker too, recommended viewing material for anyone interested.. clear, intelligent, properly British ;)

http://capx.co/7-risks-for-voting-remain/

1. Deeper Integration
2. More Bailouts
3. A European Army
4. Rule by Euro Judges
5. Shrinking Europe
6. Refugee Qutoas
7. Treated with Contempt
 
Yeah I got that. Like I said, what is your point? The Guardian is just as disgusting in its pro-remain stance as the Sun is in its pro-leave stance. Again, so what? What is your point?
 
Yeah I got that. Like I said, what is your point? The Guardian is just as disgusting in its pro-remain stance as the Sun is in its pro-leave stance. Again, so what? What is your point?
Well, you claim that 'the media' are putting emphasis on the risks of leaving. I believe the sun is the largest or one of the largest newspapers. But as you indicate yourslef, by 'the media', you only mean the media known for excellent journalism and general expertise on the issues they report about., such as the guardian, the financial times or the economist (wich ideologically tend to have a very different perspective on almost any other subject).
Btw, you still haven't explained how this big conspiracy that is not a big conspiracy, you where talking about, is working. The central banks and stuff.
 
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