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  • Current Events & Politics Moderators: tryptakid | Foreigner

The UK in the EU: "Brexit"

Lol. I don't think the US wants him. Maybe he will head to the socially conservative bastions of Russia or China.

If you really think Britain is better off facing potentially hard times without the biggest market in the world backing it up then calling you naive is an understatement. How is the self-sustaining entity known as the EU simply going to sink? When times get tough if the EU pulls together with the US (very close allies) then both places will be better off than anywhere else in the world.

Have you any idea of the robustness of infrastructure and self-sufficiency of central Europe, and some parts of Western/Southern Europe? The only obstacles facing a truly free EU are energy independence, which will be solved sooner than later, and the American military. If the EU is wise they will forge ever closer ties with the US with or without Britain, and push nuclear disarmament. Everything else is rather secondary in a self-sustaining union. The two entities have much to gain from one another, and the people stand to benefit from these alliances.

If Britain were smart they would push for more transparency and more representation within the EU in order to truly achieve their goals. Instead they squander all their political capital chasing a self-harming goal brought about initially as a means to keep the populist/opportunist UKIP in their place.
 
Shimmer.Fade said:
If Britain were smart they would push for more transparency and more representation within the EU in order to truly achieve their goals
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Absolute nonsense. This shows your naivety. There will be no more transparency, representation, renegotiation. That's not how the EU works. The idea that "Britain will have a voice at the table", or any nation will (besides perhaps Germany) is just laughable. Cameron went for renegotiation and came back with less than nothing.. why?.. because that's not how the EU works.
 
-=SS=- said:
Absolute nonsense. This shows your naivety. There will be no more transparency, representation, renegotiation. That's not how the EU works. The idea that "Britain will have a voice at the table", or any nation will (besides perhaps Germany) is just laughable. Cameron went for renegotiation and came back with less than nothing.. why?.. because that's not how the EU works.
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Showing your ignorance yet again. If you had any understanding of EU politics you would understand Britain has a very loud voice, and is always listened to. Whether or not their usually retarded, self-serving advice is implemented is another thing all together. It is pretty obvious you have a bias for some reason, and want your fellow countrymen to fail. You will probably end up emigrating to one of the socially conservative bastions whether or not the UK leaves the EU because you no longer identify with western ideals.
 
Bagseed said:
how is leaving the EU going to make life better in England?
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This is a great question. I would love to see some concrete answer. The economic impact of leaving is pretty concrete in that we can already push some numbers, and see that Britain would devolve into a 2nd world country used for farming and industry. I'm sure the Isle of Britain's new Scottish upper class would show more mercy than Britain has shown them in the past.
 
Bagseed said:
how is leaving the EU going to make life better in England?
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I think he's saying that they will be in charge of their own destiny.

Gotta admit, I think I agree with him. Sometimes, when there is so much noise you can't work out what will work best, you are better off sticking with your principals.

Also, I'm not sure how they will be worse off. It's not like other states will stop trading with them. Sounds more and more like a scare campaign to me.
 
quiet roar said:
I think he's saying that they will be in charge of their own destiny.

Gotta admit, I think I agree with him. Sometimes, when there is so much noise you can't work out what will work best, you are better off sticking with your principals.

Also, I'm not sure how they will be worse off.
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Do you not understand the Germans' define sovereignty as creating successful alliances to the point where they are free to decide for themselves through having an absolute upper hand? Some Brits seem to think they possess all the leverage/means necessary to be in charge of their own destiny. Germany knows it lacks this leverage by itself, and as such attempts to mesh with others to be PART of number 1 (USA/EU). As things are the Brits' currently are in a position to decide most things for themselves. If they leave the EU the US/EU will effectively treat Britain as a junior partner. How do you not get this? When you have big boys playing around you, any decisions you meet will only be able to be implemented within the framework of reality. Realpolitik 101.

Chasing an ideal is all good and well. Taking the pragmatic steps to achieve these ideals step by step is actually how one gets there. Telling the EU to go fuck itself is not going to be productive in the slightest, and is a very arrogant action from a party without the upper hand.

To put it bluntly, "Who the fuck do the Brits think they are?".
 
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StoneHappyMonday said:
I knew there was a simple answer to this somewhere. That's my vote cast.
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SHM, is anyone there talking about what could actually be achieved within the EU with the pressure built up by this vote?

This is a great opportunity for Britain to push its case for greater transparency, and more direct representation. I hope the Dutch understand with their vote that that is the true wish of so many.

The EU is far from perfect, and far from complete. I just see the alternative as being so much more dangerous. If nationalism seems to be on the rise now, what would happen if the union were to dissolve? I know people here in Germany understand how important the USA is, and how, despite geography, the USA is far more important to the EU and Germany than Britain is. Britain is super important, don't get me wrong, but they are also lacking in leverage.
 
Shimmer.Fade said:
SHM, is anyone there talking about what could actually be achieved within the EU with the pressure built up by this vote?
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Tbh, no. The whole thing (by both sides) has been a negative campaign so far, meaning all we are getting from both camps is 'dire consequences of remaining in/leaving', rather than any positive achievements there might be to be made. Examples. Osbourne (Chancellor) warns leaving will create 36billion pounds black hole. Brexit - if we stay in, immigration will continue to rise. (Which was countered with 'it will rise anyway'). Both sides are making few to any positive claims. The debate is a clusterfuck.
 
I will add...I (as alluded to earlier) have quite an outstanding record in calling election results correctly. I know there is two months to go. But right now, despite the dominant culture propagated in the media saying we have to remain, it is the Brexit campaign that appears to be having more effect. Cameron seems particularly weak and half-hearted (and he shouldn't be because his job is definitely on the line if we vote to leave, his position would be untenable). Things can change, last I saw there was only 3 percentage points in it, but away from the official pollsters its Brexit who are making the most noise and a scary majority of people I speak to say they are going to vote to leave. As elections (referendum in this case) get nearer the conservative line, the vote for the status quo, always gains ground. But 'remain' certainly has ground to make up and I don't think their campaign, currently, is going well.
 
Oh man =(

Fuckity, fuck.

I dislike the leave campaign's scare tactics, but they are the side with information and fact on their side unfortunately.

The West (including the US) has threatened dire consequences which by now must be initiated to serve as precedent. How can people be so confident that Britain can pull its own weight, especially while being unofficially penalized? After seeing Britain fail to compete with Germany within the EU itself I have very large misgivings. I would personally love to see a counter balance within the EU. I don't think the French can do it right now. Britain has been playing by its own rules nearly the whole time, and is still losing due to its neo-conning. All it gives the EU is some money. The EU, unconsciously, gives Britain so much more than it deserves due to its rich history, and former role as one of the 'good guys'.
 
StoneHappyMonday said:
Tbh, no. The whole thing (by both sides) has been a negative campaign so far, meaning all we are getting from both camps is 'dire consequences of remaining in/leaving', rather than any positive achievements there might be to be made.
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Erm, no. Just no. The remain campaign is full on fear. There is no real genuine case for remain besides piffy warnings about 'it will hurt your/our collective wallet'. If there was a real case they would have no trouble elucidating what it is and the general public would still not be crying for more facts on the topic with less than 2 months before the vote! But they can't put forward anything coherent. The government has just spent £10mill on sending out little propaganda leaflets to households, which still doesn't give any impartial facts on the case at all. All we're hearing now is "the wheels will fall off the wagon" if we leave. It's disgraceful, and pretty embarrassing.. especially for anyone who believes it.

It (government leaflet) also completely omits the key thing in all of this:

Sovereignty.

That's what this is really about. We don't have "a voice at the table". And you would trust our politicians to act in our interest anyway at a foreign club? Get real. They can barely keep it together in Westminster and you want to allow power and law to be dictated beyond our borders, with foreign people who don't know our nation, don't live here, never grew up here and have zero loyalty to it? Why? You can't expect an organization of disloyal men in suits earning stupid money to have any sense of rationality or integrity towards our nation. There is no "voice at the table".. there just isn't. That's not how the EU really works. It's a big club full of men with agendas, and you're not part of the equation. If you happen to draw the short straw like Greece did then despite being a member you'll just get shat on anyway.. they got screwed over. And you want to be a part of a club that treats its members like that? Christ..

Can't control our own laws. Can't control our own borders. To call ourselves democratic and self-determined is ridiculous


The left are absolutely terrified of nationalism, of self-determination, because in essence the left is just a big piss soaked blanket. You have no real conviction. You need to be lead by someone else, and give your power away because you don't dare wield it yourself. Jeremy Corbyn exemplifies it perfectly. All his life he's been anti-EU.. but when it came down to it he did a spectacular 180. I'm surprised he hasn't been lambasted more than he has! No conviction. No balls. No principles.

I like the idea of the EU, don't get me wrong. But it has had 40 years to prove its worth and it has failed miserably. What's more it is absolutely clear it was never about peace or security, but about consolidation of power and control. It's in the original documents. It is being run by people who simply are NOT your friend, who don't give a fuck about you, your family, or the (real) success of your nation.


Leaving the EU won't be easy or some amazing thing. It may be hard. People will want to sell us their products though, all the guff about business blah blah.. anyone who has worked in business for more than a day knows that German car makers are not going to lose out on a profitable market just because their politicians hold a grudge. No, what matters is the principle and to be a self-determining nation. That's my position anyway. We need control of our borders and lots of little things too, but its all subordinate to the sovereignty issue.. can't do shit about anything unless we control our own laws, and our own finances (thank god we kept the pound!).
 
-=SS=- said:
It's a question of sovereignty. Period. That is the only issue as far as I'm concerned. All other issues are secondary and subordinate to it. The power to carve our own laws and own destiny is essential if we wish to continue calling ourselves a free and democratic nation. The EU is not much more than an (expensive) protection racket.
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Do you feel the same way about the Commonwealth?
 
I'm on the fence.. I can see the benefits and drawbacks of both arguments; and i suppose this is also reflective of the wider population as recent poll averages have been almost neck and neck. I think when it comes down to the actual vote people will stick with the status quo, drawing on past examples with the Scottish Independence referendum and the General Election. But then, who knows..

It also depends on how many people make the effort to vote from the remain camp, I'm certain the majority of people wanting to vote out will definitely be voting. There's going to be a serious force at work making sure that the UK remains in the EU though, I see that Obama has just arrived in the UK and voiced his opinion on the matter.
 
The Prime Minister also warned that British products including cider, cheese and whiskey could be threatened if we leave the EU because they would no longer enjoy protected geographical status, meaning copycat producers could sell products with the same name of an inferior quality.

It came as the UK's statistics watchdog warned that one of the key claims made by the Brexit camp over the financial cost of EU membership is "potentially misleading".

Vote Leave's claim that £350 million a week is sent to Brussels does not take into account the UK's rebate or the money that comes back from the EU, Sir Andrew Dilnot said as he criticised the "lack of clarity" in the way the statistics have been used.
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http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/04/21/barack-obama-britain-must-vote-to-remain-in-the-european-union/

Make of that what you will. The leave campaign consists of right wing nationalists and neo-cons (wolfs in sheeps' clothing). I have huge doubt that Britain can compete on its own. There are no laws which have directly hurt British competitiveness. Their own politicians have made poor decisions, and have not represented their own people to the extent of other places (i.e. Germany). For the Brits to blame EU law is just wrong. They need to be looking in the mirror, and saying, "what could we have done better in order to be more competitive?". Only the weak blame others for their failures.

There are so many incentives for the EU to fuck an outsider Britain. The EU only gains from putting your face in the mud, and the US, due to its greed, has already sided with the EU against you.

In language the Leave Campaign can understand..why wouldn't the EU push Britain down after Britain gives them the finger, and says "Fuck off"? That stronger boy gets a bit confused why such a pipsqueak would start in on him after such good times in the past. The stronger boy notices he wants part of your lunch, so he takes it. The stronger boy notices you aren't as cool as you thought, and starts talking shit. The big brother (USA) of the stronger boy maybe tells him to chill out a bit as he ruffles his hair affectionately. Britain sits in the corner quietly weeping, and big brother comes over to cheer him up, and says, "Why did you do that in the first place? It will be ok again with time, but for now the harvest you reap is what you sowed".
 
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malakaix said:
I think when it comes down to the actual vote people will stick with the status quo, drawing on past examples with the Scottish Independence referendum and the General Election. But then, who knows..
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Most people don't have a clue about anything. If they become convinced that their own selfish interests will be threatened, short term and/or long term, and by interests I mean financial situation, then they will vote whatever way they believe will lead them to the least amount of financial pain. Most people have no principles or morals guiding them anymore. Only vain self interest. And if that's the way the vote goes, so be it.. but it will signal the end for this nation as a democratic and self-determined nation, and cement our future (for my life time at least) as nothing more than a vain, shallow, morally bankrupt corporate clone satellite state of the EU federal superstate (and maybe some globally bound order eventually, who knows).

malakaix said:
I see that Obama has just arrived in the UK and voiced his opinion on the matter.
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What a two faced cunt he is. There would be nothing but uproar if the situation was reversed and we were telling the Americans to stay in an undemocratic superstate. I would like to imagine the President would deflect such assertions, and rally the American people on how America has always been self-determined and capable of carving its own path.

But for Obama to come here and say what he has. What a turd. Sort your own country out first mate.
 
alasdairm said:
how are his comments two-faced?
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Because like I said if the tables were reversed you can bet your bottom dollar he would be having none of it. For him to lecture us about what we should do, that we should cement ourselves into an undemocratic entity and give up the right to determine our own laws and borders just so he/America can benefit.. totally two faced and a total cunt.

Shows what the American government actually thinks about the UK.. we're just a lapdog and signal booster into the EU zone. They don't want us to leave because it would harm their interests. No concern over whether staying in is undemocratic for the UK.

Like I said. What a cunt.
 
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