The "true nature" of the 2C's.

[Erny]

That'll be fun, so please forgive me my tone.

Here's another prophet you have here, who have discovered phenylethylamines while being too much into classics. And everyone get worried, "is it true?"

- No

What this person is completely missing is the "true nature" of "the bliss" he gets into with the most holy LSD, holy mushrooms and other classics. That is but being possesed with positive emotions. Yes, we may be possesed with "beauty" or "harmony", and that is what psychedelics are about. You heard me right, medicine would classify "a peak state" as a hypomaniacal state. And it can get really manic at times, not just "hypo". Have you forgotten that everything comes from your own head here?

Everything in psychedelics is mental.


Why am I not seeing DOX in the list? It is true that 2C-X don't normally yield "peak states", as if they are too weak for that. But DOX, NBOMe-2C-X and mescaline can yield them. Although I fear the starter would miss that with all that attitude he has got. These phenylethylamines mentioned feel "unnatural"? Why am I not seeing DOM mentioned here? It feels "natural", as you desire, and 2C-D and 2C-D-NBOMe too. But what's wrong with unnaturalness? It's great on it's own right. 2C-I may feel weird and unnatural, true. 2C-E is "cold and analytical" - that's a person not familiar with heavy DOI experience. Say, 8 mg. That's where emotional void is, altogether with the visual armageddon and overwhelming "unnaturalness" mixed with horror. But it deserves to exist too.

 

[tryp2fun]

On the other hand, there is something very right about LSD / shrooms / mescaline, classic and indeed organic experiences that I have trouble believing a more or less randomly synthesized compound could aspire to. But I don't speak from experience.

Umm, you do know that the 2Cs are synthetic analogues of mescaline, with only one methoxy substituent moved from the 3 to 2 position, and the substituent at the 4-position varied. They were specifically designed by Shulgin based on mescaline as the template, hardly randomly designed!. Read PIHKAL if you want to know how they were discovered. Because the 2Cs are more active and easier to synthesize than mescaline, they have become more common.

 

[Erny]

What this person is completely missing is the "true nature" of "the bliss" he gets into with the most holy LSD, holy mushrooms and other classics. That is but being possesed with positive emotions. Yes, we may be possesed with "beaty" or "harmony", and that is what psychedelics are about.

Now, after finding some other phenylethylamines our starter suddenly discovers the fact that he may be possesed with something else in psychedelics. "Oh no! That is unnatural and not right!" But that was him who allowed these things to hurt him. Blaming chemicals is pointless. These are just white powders. Always blame yourself first.

 

[slownerveaction]

What would have been appropriate would to just move on from the 2c-x series and not pass judgment.

Or the OP could have written some detailed posts in the TR forum of the experiences that led to this conclusion. I bet a couple of well-written trip reports would have garnered a supportive responsive.

 

[IamMe90]

Now that you've all got your complaints off your chest does anyone have anything of value to contribute this? I've heard of plenty of instances like this throughout BL so I'd like to hear some more. It's possible this is all true, I don't think it should be cast aside so easily and with the likes of the nbome chemicals, etc appearing as analogues of 2cs. What way were people taking it? Was the appearance of the negative side effects evident soon after the trip?



It's a forum.

That doesn't excuse stupidity.

Here, to demonstrate my reasoning, consider that what you're arguing goes both ways - it's a forum, which means that everyone has a right to their 2 cents - which means I also have the right to criticize these kind of posts. "It's a forum - " yup, someone made a pretty stupid post on a forum!

I agree though, that this could have been much more well received if there had been accompanying TRs written and instead of condemning the 2c's as "evil,", the OP had just given everyone a humble warning that in his opinion, the 2c-x series posed some risks.

 

[AlyDrops]

On the other hand, there is something very right about LSD / shrooms / mescaline, classic and indeed organic experiences that I have trouble believing a more or less randomly synthesized compound could aspire to. But I don't speak from experience.

Flickering, I have to agree with tryp2fun here. I'd say LSD was in fact one of the most randomly synthesized of all synthetic psychedelics, being that it was really one of the only ones ever created without the intention of finding a new psychedelic chemical. And I wouldn't give up on the 2Cs just yet, especially not 2C-B, which is a wonderful drug! Honestly, I'd say 2C-B is the most natural of them all, it's even more similar to natural chemicals than LSD is. Hell, I'd say it's possible that it could even be found in nature one day, which I would never say about LSD. After all, it's 2,5-dimethoxy-4-bromo-phenethylamine, and are you aware that 2,4-dibromo-5-methoxy-phenethylamine has been found naturally? That's insanely close!

Also, sekio, I love that picture haha.

 

[freaktech]

After all, it's 2,5-dimethoxy-4-bromo-phenethylamine, and are you aware that 2,4-dibromo-5-methoxy-phenethylamine has been found naturally? That's insanely close!

I have no idea of this! where I can find naturally the 2,4-dibromo-5-methoxy-phenethylamine chemical?? I imagine that these chemical isn´t too good, it would be more popular, no?

 

[SpecialK_]

That doesn't excuse stupidity.

Here, to demonstrate my reasoning, consider that what you're arguing goes both ways - it's a forum, which means that everyone has a right to their 2 cents - which means I also have the right to criticize these kind of posts. "It's a forum - " yup, someone made a pretty stupid post on a forum!

I agree though, that this could have been much more well received if there had been accompanying TRs written and instead of condemning the 2c's as "evil,", the OP had just given everyone a humble warning that in his opinion, the 2c-x series posed some risks.

Who said anything about arguing or stupidity.

That was just in response to when you said it would've 'been better to just move on'. Obviously the person is going to rather post up a thread like this and see if they can get any similar experiences or reasons for their feelings. The OP seems to have had a lasting impact and they are branding the 2cs as the cause, if I was them I'd most definitely be trying to find out a reason and a place like here is the best place to.

Maybe their choice of words was poor, but responses like that just amount to even less. When they call it 'cold' and kind of 'toxic' I wouldn't choose those words myself but I can understand where they are coming from. If you've ever insufflated a good dose of 2C-E you'll understand the choice of the word Toxi, if you gave it to someone who hadn't researched/heard of it this way they'd think that they had been poisoned for the comeup.

 

[AlyDrops]

I have no idea of this! where I can find naturally the 2,4-dibromo-5-methoxy-phenethylamine chemical?? I imagine that these chemical isn´t too good, it would be more popular, no?

To my knowledge it's never been tested in man, and you're really not going to be able to get it unless you REALLY know what you're doing or you know how to synthesize it. It's been isolated from a species of Tasmanian bryozoa (a type of sea creature) called Amathia wilsoni, as a biosynthetic precursor to a bunch of chemicals called amathamides, which have some totally unrelated use. So as far as I know, this one is gonna be pretty difficult to just get out of the wild. I would love to be able to test it if I could get ahold of it though!

Check out this link:
http://books.google.com/books?id=V8fxtos5C5UC&pg=PA83&lpg=PA83&dq=amathamides+structure&source=bl&ots=JvvxtFWwGt&sig=1t_ZE0eHe0TrK0PYf923-t285dA&hl=en&ei=MLZZTtunK-SDsgKM3Nm3DA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=3&sqi=2&ved=0CCoQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=amathamides%20structure&f=false

Look on page 83, it's image 68, and the rest are amathamides. That paper also talkes about some brominated indoles and even mentions the harmala alkaloids at one point, but I haven't actually read it all, just scanned through it.

 

[MusicGuy]

Who said anything about arguing or stupidity.

That was just in response to when you said it would've 'been better to just move on'. Obviously the person is going to rather post up a thread like this and see if they can get any similar experiences or reasons for their feelings. The OP seems to have had a lasting impact and they are branding the 2cs as the cause, if I was them I'd most definitely be trying to find out a reason and a place like here is the best place to.

Maybe their choice of words was poor, but responses like that just amount to even less. When they call it 'cold' and kind of 'toxic' I wouldn't choose those words myself but I can understand where they are coming from. If you've ever insufflated a good dose of 2C-E you'll understand the choice of the word Toxi, if you gave it to someone who hadn't researched/heard of it this way they'd think that they had been poisoned for the comeup.

My first "strong" and powerful psychedelic was on a mixture of snorted and oral 2c-e. Total I likely had well over 50-60mg, the majority of it snorted. The trip completely changed my life, for the better. The come up basically felt as if I was falling down the rabbit hole. The trip itself was 8 hours or so, it was pure euphoria the entire time. The visuals are something I would never forget. I also remember... unlike lower doses I had used before, I felt completely sober the whole time. It's very hard to describe, but like I said, I felt completely sober, just... enlightened.

In my opinion 2C's are only worth it in high doses by experienced trippers. Lower doses just miss something the higher doses have.

Most of the issues that people I know have were caused by usage of more than once every 1-2 weeks. Or causes by simply trying to get high, taking to much, then having a bad trip because they weren't prepared. Bad trips on 2C's are all your own doing. If you're taking it in high doses for the right reasons, and less than 3-4 times a month then I honestly don't see what anyone's issue with it is. You've gotta remember that these drugs are NOT toys, or just a little speed, they're powerful psychedelics, and you have to treat them as such.

Quit being fools. Do your research, keep yourself safe. Trip for enlightenment, in my opinion if it's for any other reason it's a waste.

(Not trying to hate on anyone here. But this is the conclusion be and several friends of mine have come to after seeing so many people go down because of them)

 

[homme]

To contrast the critical response your receiving, Styrofoam Jones, i'd like to thank you for your your thread.
I read the whole thing with attention and concern.
Of course this isn't as valuable/intense as personal experience - it's what it is: some information i found on the internet. But i will definitelly keep in mind what you said.

You write eloquently, deal reasonably with criticism, make a judicious impression from what i read. That makes me carefully consider your experience.

 

[Erny]

Here are the followers, right. Now put that holy 4-OH-DMT onto your banner! Classic tryptamine pathos is the only true psychedelic experience. It won't hurt you and will lead you to ultimate and final enlightenment. Everything else is outright heresy.

 

[Citrus_Funk]

This is a great thread. Out of the 2C's, I've only done 2C-E and 2C-I, and only a few times each. That said, here's my take.

I am a highly analytical person. Super-rational, more than anyone else I know. I am also a pure naturalist. I don't believe in the existence of ghosts, gods, entities, spirits, or anything else like that - or at the very least, if those kinds of things DO exist somewhere, somehow, we will not ever have access to them, nor they to us. In my opinion, anyone who thinks they have connected with something which is BEYOND nature is deluding themselves. We ARE indeed nature, but nature is material, mortal, bags of simmering chemicals fighting against entropy, evolving down through the generations, until that giant fusion reactor in the daytime sky burns itself out and entropy eventually wins.

When I had my ego-loss experience on 2C-I that one time, a part of me kind of experienced (on some level) something like what the OP is talking about. Of course it wasn't really "me" experiencing it - ya dig? Something came out - a hidden aspect of "me"? Or perhaps just an aspect of human nature, or an aspect of existence itself - something that was not positive, not affirmative, not a place where all is one and all is good, but rather a total submersion into the eternally repeating fractal - a place where infinity piles upon infinity piles upon infinity, where there is no up or down, no left or right, no right or wrong, a place from which the frightened, disoriented little ego recoils in horror, then despair - and then anger. Pure, white-hot righteous anger at the gaping, bottomless, black hole at the centre of all questions, at the lack of objective frames of reference, at the absence of good and evil, at the process of natural selection, that horrible, bloody, cruel joke, at the lion who must work endlessly at becoming an ever-bigger and stronger monster to feed her cubs, at the gazelle forced to run all his life and dominate the smaller gazelles if he wants his children to survive, at the arbitrariness of love and hate, ego and id, strength and weakness, at the realization that all meanings are forever symbiotically linked, that nothing can exist without its opposite, and that existence and non-existence are both exactly equivalent and everything is permissible. Something that was not me, but rather a sinister, predatory essence began to stir, to feel, to BURN - profoundly, wildly, - and suddenly that fragile little ego was completely gone and it BECAME the bone-chilling, empty, eternally expanding void of insatiable hunger. It was a glimpse into the pure, stark naked core of things as they truly are, which is to say, as I see them - and it was suddenly, shockingly beautiful. For a guy like me, this was nothing short of AWESOME.

Now it sounds to me, Styrofoam Jones that you are not like me. And that's cool. It sounds to me that this kind of trip is not what you're looking for. That's cool too. But like many others have said, I would be careful about making blanket statements about "the true nature" of this or that family of drugs. They may have a "true nature" but it will never be experienced the same way by everyone. And of course, doing any psychedelic too often, especially one that can provide experiences like this, is probably inadvisable.

In conclusion - for the next little while I think I'll be sticking with mescaline.

 

[AlyDrops]

Citrus_Funk, that sounds amazing. I'm always interested in hearing peoples' reports on 2C-I ego deaths, as most people (myself included) who use it seem to get little to no true psychedelic experience out of it, just euphoria and visuals. It's something I'd very much like to experience one day. What dose did you take for that trip?

 

[Citrus_Funk]

Hey AlyDrops,

I had intended for the dose to be 22 mg. After I came down, that's when I discovered my milligram scale wasn't working properly. HA! But here's the funny thing - when I weighed the baggie, it weighed what it should have weighed if I actually did something like 25 mg. So, it still wasn't really all that much. It was weird. After that ego-death peak, I was even able to leave the apartment and I walked out onto the street and into the middle of a massive Gay Pride parade. I'm sure you can imagine what that was like - "did I just see that man turn into a woman and back?" That was a good night.

Interestingly, I've done 40 mg of 2C-E and that didn't even get me "there". I guess set and setting really do have a major role to play in what happens - maybe that's even more important than *which* 2C you do? Or maybe it's just me. I'm starting to get the feeling that some people's specific brain chemistry just "works" better with certain substances than others. Maybe I'm just a freak, which is why 2C-I did so well for me. I've only ever had one other ego-death, and that was more than a decade ago in my reckless youth, on a totally unknown dose of my homegrown cubensis shrooms (just grabbed a handful - lol). I've never been able to recapture that; maybe my older and more rational brain is now more attuned to the more "analytical" nature of the 2C's? *shrug*...

 

[sml-la]

To the op!

OP, I think overall this post is lacking a lot of perspective that would give credibility to your accusations. I feel like overall you are making an uneducated assumption, mostly for the following reasons:

1. You are lacking experience relating to Mescaline, the traditional psychedelic of which the 2c-x series is related to the most. I don't understand how you could expect a psychedelic phenethylamine to compare to tryptamines, or ergotamines. They are different down to their very core. What hurts your opinion even more, is it is fairly limited concerning the 2c-x chemicals themselves. I can tell you right now, 2c-C and 2c-B are both much more pleasant chemicals of the same family. I feel like right now you're judging the parents by how the kid acts, and you're completely ignoring his brothers and sisters. I think we both know that's not an accurate way to evaluate anything.

2. I think it would only be fair to give your opinion if you're willing to include the dynamics of which you enjoy in your psychedelic experience, in comparison to the dynamics of which you despise in the 2c-x chemicals. This validates your authority on the whole issue anyway. By saying that, I don't mean that your opinion all of the sudden has authority over anyone else here, but it turns your generalized assumption into an opinion of its own merit. That way, people don't read what you have to say and think you're being a close-minded prick, and it gives you the right of way to agree to disagree.

3. Remember that the 2c's lend themselve to be used in circumstances you wouldn't use other chems. You wouldn't binge for days of LSD or Tryptamines, Empathogens or Dissociatives, would you? If you would, that'd be good information to include in your overall statement. If you wouldn't, well how much does that modulate the overall comparison? Does it at all? These are just things I'm wondering, based on your post, really...

Overall, I can relate to some of your stances concerning the 2c series. I undoubtedly respect Shulgin for his creation of these chemicals, because I am certain they have won the hearts of many psychedelic users, and have overall given many people a chance to get a glimpse of the psychedelic experience, in a day and age where hallucinogens are far less common than they were in past generations.

I personally find the 2c-x series to be a sweet spot for situational psychedelia. They aren't quite as deep and enjoyable as their amphetamine cousins (DOx), though they are much more convenient. Overall, I find them to be pretty shallow psychedelics. This is a pro and a con. For concerts, I find them immensely enjoyable! Though I find 2c-E to have a rather awkward initial body load, this is something I overcome usually within the first hour, and then I'm back to bliss of the sensory world! They are also convenient psychedelics for tripping in high-risk situations (emotionally, mentally), because they don't excite me in the same way as tryptamines or LSD/LSA would. They are also good for group-trips I've found. There's less chaos from the varying mental trips undergone by the array of users in these situations. Everyone can relate a little bit better, from what I've experienced. The only issue I have with the 2c-x chemicals is the aforementioned circumstances are the only situations in which I deem them to have reward. I don't typically enjoy taking a 2c-x chemical if I'm just chillin at the crib. It makes the overall physical side-effects noticeable, and usually makes the experience as a whole a little bleeehhh. 2c-C is one of the few that can be enjoyed that way, though I prefer DOC any day.

Anyways, I feel your pain to some degree, OP. I've had my hayday of binging on these chemicals (taking 200+mg of 36-48 hours). Nowadays I'm just not as interested in filling my weeks with psychedelics. The cumulative tolerance build with these chems has lead me to wearing myself out on them. I enjoy my normal routine of sleep and productivity, so I have reduced my endulgence a fair amount. And when I do, I very much prefer the tryptamine or dissociative vibe than the phenethylamine vibe. Welp, that's my two cents.

 

[Jesusgreen]

I'm going to try keep my post short and sweet, as I feel a lot of the posts in here have gone on a bit without really offering much other than either "2Cs are evil" or "Don't blame 2Cs".

I'd like to address one particular concern of mine. The people who have said they have had long term issues caused by the 2Cs also say they have taken countless other psychedelics, many times. Even if you can justifiably blame drugs rather than yourself, what on earth could prove to you that this was the 2Cs and not some of the other drugs you have taken? If a drug were to leave you with lasting mental health issues it could happen anywhere from hours after you took it to years later, so pointing the finger at one particular chemical is utterly wrong and could even divert attention from another chemical that could be causing the problems. Unless you stopped taking all drugs for a long period of time, then began consuming 2Cs, and suddenly noticed issues - I don't think you're qualified to say they're the cause of any of your problems.

Also what's with the recent trend in people attacking one particular group of drugs and stereotyping them heavily? I do not find 2Cs cold, emotionally bland, or with a lack of euphoria - quite the opposite, and 2C-E has taught me some valuable lessons, and on the whole been a positive input in my life. Even if, and I must emphasize the if there - the 2Cs have caused you potential problems, that doesn't mean that they'll do this for other people, it is very judgemental to assume that everyone reacts the same to these chemicals, and even more so to group all of them together. I mean, you're not just saying "2C-I is bad" or "2C-E is bad", but "2Cs are bad", so why not phenethylamine psychedelics? Why not phenethylamines as a whole? Why not any drug that affects dopamine? Why not all drugs? See where I'm going?

I'd hasten to agree with jamaica0535 here and say that it's likely you just uncovered some inherent problems in your life, and have struggled to deal with them, so you sought to blame something, and found the drugs to be a perfect scapegoat. When taking 4-AcO-DMT I uncovered things about myself I really did not like, things that I'm battling, but which still trouble me today. Does that mean I blame 4-AcO-DMT? Of course not, in fact I thank it, as if those issues hadn't come to light I might have kept ignoring them forever more, and god only knows where I'd be now if I did that.

 

[Enter Galactic]

I found that 2C-I combined with JWH-210 and meditation gave me some of the purest bliss I have ever felt. It is all in your mindset really. If you think about them as horrible chemicals then that's what you will feel during your experience. If you want to have an extremely positive experience it's as simple as thinking positively.

 

[AlyDrops]

Hey AlyDrops,

I had intended for the dose to be 22 mg. After I came down, that's when I discovered my milligram scale wasn't working properly. HA! But here's the funny thing - when I weighed the baggie, it weighed what it should have weighed if I actually did something like 25 mg. So, it still wasn't really all that much. It was weird. After that ego-death peak, I was even able to leave the apartment and I walked out onto the street and into the middle of a massive Gay Pride parade. I'm sure you can imagine what that was like - "did I just see that man turn into a woman and back?" That was a good night.

Interestingly, I've done 40 mg of 2C-E and that didn't even get me "there". I guess set and setting really do have a major role to play in what happens - maybe that's even more important than *which* 2C you do? Or maybe it's just me. I'm starting to get the feeling that some people's specific brain chemistry just "works" better with certain substances than others. Maybe I'm just a freak, which is why 2C-I did so well for me. I've only ever had one other ego-death, and that was more than a decade ago in my reckless youth, on a totally unknown dose of my homegrown cubensis shrooms (just grabbed a handful - lol). I've never been able to recapture that; maybe my older and more rational brain is now more attuned to the more "analytical" nature of the 2C's? *shrug*...

That is interesting, I've definitely taken more than that and not had that type of reaction, although I also have a friend who usually got the regular "speed with visuals" style trip except for one time taking a regular dose where he happened to trip for twice as long and have a mind-blowing experience from it. I don't doubt that that set and setting play a huge role in the 2Cs, they all seem to be fairly unpredictable almost to the point of being interchangeable at times for sure. I have to agree with the brain chemistry thing though, I definitely feel certain psychedelics differently than people I know, and they from people they know, and etc. I actually used to prefer the dopaminergic psychedelics (phenethylamines, amphetamines, and high doses of LSD, mainly) for my trips but lately I've been more inclined towards cleaner, more serotonin-unique tryptamines like shrooms and DMT. After all, psychedelics are just all you, I guess as you get older and your tastes change, so will your psychedelics.

That's pretty great about the pride parade though, haha. I always wanted to trip at one of those to see if that kind of thing would happen. Although, I have tripped hard enough to see someone morph back and forth between being a man and a woman just while hanging out with him at his apartment. Actually, a tripping friend and I both saw it at the same time. When we told him he claimed that it was because he had superpowers, that we weren't tripping as hard as we thought we were lol.

 

[Jesusgreen]

I found that 2C-I combined with JWH-210 and meditation gave me some of the purest bliss I have ever felt. It is all in your mindset really. If you think about them as horrible chemicals then that's what you will feel during your experience. If you want to have an extremely positive experience it's as simple as thinking positively.

Although I've already posted here, just wanted to add, this is really true! The same actually goes for the nausea and bodyload. I have given 3 people who were all inexperienced with psychedelics 2C-E, all medium to large doses. I told them all it would be a wonderful experience, and I mentioned nothing about nausea. None of them experienced any nausea, all of them had a great time, and I still believe it was because of how I described it. Mind over matter